Catholic Online Forum

We have had a lot of threads about screaming children and how distruptive it can be at Mass. What I don't remember ever seeing is a thread asking parents of young children how we can help. So I'm starting one.

Before we begin, let me say that this is NOT a let's complain about little kids who act up in church thread

The purpose of this thread is for parents of young children to let us know how we can help them when their children act up at Mass.

Here are some questions for the parents of young children:

1. If you are at Mass with two or more little ones and at least one starts to act up, how can I help? What, if anything, could those around you do to help you?

2. Is there anything that you would like to see or hear from the other adults around you when you bring your children to Mass? Maybe a smile or a word of encouragement? Or maybe you have a problem with adults who encourage your children to misbehave?

For those with older children who have been there, done that, can you recall any words or actions from other adults that helped you when you were struggling with one, or more, little ones at Mass? Or was there anything that anyone said that drove you away from church?




Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie,

I would ask first what circumstances have changed that would warrant the need for others to help out parents of disruptive children. It seems that years ago, parents had more young children than they do today, yet they got along without the help of others and Mass was less disrupted. I think something else is amiss here, and that how other parishioners can be helpful is the wrong question to ask.

But, I will also respond by saying that nearby friends or acquaintances could offer to take the child out of the church occasionally. But I would never turn my child over to a parishioner I did not know. That would be foolish.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

At a church I previously attended, there was a well-thought of woman, of a special spiritual presence, a young mother with one baby and one infant.

Some of us realized, if she was always the one to take the noisy child outside for awhile, she would never gain the benefits of being present. So, several of us would take turns, and all of us- including the mother- had some services uninterupted, and all of us had the joy of being in the lives of these little ones.

_________________
Charles MacKenzie

"For nature is one with rapine, a harm no preacher can heal;
The Mayfly is torn by the swallow, the sparrow spear'd by the shrike,
And the whole little wood where I sit is a world of plunder and prey."
-Tennyson

Dean,

Maybe disruptive was the wrong word for me to use. I wasn't referring to kids that are plain out of control. Unless there is a psychological problem, that's usually a parenting issue.

I'm talking more of those of you who are truly trying to do the right thing by taking your children to Mass and are struggling with the normal childhood fidgeting and giggling and being unwilling to sit still. Can the rest of us help?

I honestly don't remember any instances where our children misbehaved so badly that they disturbed anyone. But I do remember plenty of times when I left Mass totally exhausted and thinking that I was so busy watching the kids that I got nothing out of Mass.

One thing that encouraged us was having people stop by after Mass to tell us how well behaved/aborable/sweet our children were, what a good job we are doing and not to worry, it would get easier as they got older. Hearing positive comments helped a lot.

One thing that I try to do when I see a parent who is trying to keep a figdety child under control is say something positive to them after Mass. If you were that parent, would a simple acknowlegement help you?

One thing that really bugged me were well meaning people who would try to start a conversation with our children during Mass. Those of you with children need the support of the rest of us. If in no other way you need us to set a good example by our behavior. The last thing you need is having someone sit next to your kids who is reading bulletin during the homily or chatting during the consecration.




Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Dean,

You said it in the "other" thread. It's cultural. Our culture is far too permissive, children are not raised so much as just allowed to grow.

We are in a fairly small parish and so you get to sort of know folks at least by sight and from around the neighborhood. I have held kids of others, sat with kids when mom went outside. Given kids the "dirty look" when they were misbehaving.

Once after receiving, I went outside and relieved a stressed out mom, so she could recieve. After mass she had coffee with us while my boys amused her youngster.......dad had just been deployed and she was beside herself and the baby was feeling the vibes. Her and her husband became good friends, and they have now moved on but we hear from them occasionally.

_________________
Bob C

Effie,



Well...again...what has happened between the supposed golden age of worship and what we have today that makes the fidgeting of children the responsibility of the rest of the parish? Children were prone to fidgeting 50 years ago too, but somehow it got handled.



And I would say, welcome to parenthood. I remember my mother leaving Mass totally exhausted and getting "nothing" out of Mass, other than the grace of receiving the Blessed Sacrament. That was 40 years ago. So, since children were fidgeting 40 years ago and parents managed it without the help of the rest of the parish, why is the help necessary today?



I would never say that praising a child as if he had not been fidgeting is a good thing to do. Perhaps encouraging the parents that there is light at the end of the tunnel, yes. But never saying that the behavior was good or the parents did a good job controlling the behavior, when in fact it was not controlled. That is failure to speak the truth.



What that acknowlegement would do is remind me that the behavior of my children was attracting attention.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Effie,

My kids are both young (3 and 1) and not naughty kids, generally. They do act like kids, though... talking too loud, moving too much, etc. If either of them is especially restless or loud, we do remove them. Yesterday I took my 3 year-old out and punished him because he slapped me while I was trying to correct him (that is VERY unusual behavior for him, though). After the punishment, he was much better behaved.

I don't advocate letting kids run around crazy through Mass. My goals for my kids at this age are:

1. We understand that Mass is a place where we have to be quiet and relatively still.

2. We may not climb on or under the pews.

3. We have to stay in our pew during Mass.

This is the behavior I am for right now. I would love to see my son more attentive and prayerful though Mass but right now he's not at that level. He prays to himself throughout the day and talks about God, Jesus, and Mama Mary to me, but he doesn't have the understanding or attention span to pay attention to an adult "conversation" for an hour or more (heck, there are days *I* don't have that much of an attention span.)

The most encouraging things I have heard have been along the lines of:

"Good for you for bringing your kids with you and not leaving just because they make a little peep."

"It does my heart good to see your kids at Mass."

"You are doing a good job bringing your kids to Mass and trying to teach them to behave."

...Etc...

Mostly, I just want people to understand that I am trying. I bring my kids to Mass to learn how to behave and hopefully one day love going to Mass.

Honestly, I don't want people to help me with my kids during Mass other than maybe catching them if they are escaping and I don't have enough arms to do it myself. I would feel like I was bothering that person.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my biggest problem right now is that people think I am TOO strict with my kids and that I should be letting them run around during Mass because it would be less disruptive. They love having my kids there (I think) but they think I expect to much from them. I find hearing that sort of negative talk just as saddening as hearing the stuff about kids not being disciplined enough.

_________________
God bless,
Krista

Happily celebrating twelve years of lurking.

Krista,



Yes, we have this same problem! We are often "helped" with advice that we are too strict with our kids and that we should relax our vigilence and our requirements. I haven't figured out a response yet that combines charity and that is pointed in telling them to butt out, and that perhaps their standards are too lax.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,



If you find the right response you'll make a fourtune and be able to retire before you're 50.

You probably already know this but I'll say it anyway. Some people who have "helpful advice" give it to justify the way that they raised their kids. If they admit that you're right that would mean admiting that their parenting skills were less than steller.

Unfortunately I have seen far too many parents who have no discipline and even no interest in what their child is doing or where the child is going. In the end it's the child that suffers.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie, you're Pastor must be overwhelmed by this unfortunate situation.

On the other hand, If this is an ongoing situation perhaps he sees it quite differently than you do since he has the grace for the parish. Perhaps from what he knows about many of these families, he's just plain happy to see them come to Mass and perhaps be open to the graces that Dean spoke about...

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Mary,


What does my pastor have to do this? You have once again assumed something that I never said. I never mentioned my parish. I never mentioned what area I was tallking about. If you had asked I would have told you that my comments had to do with society in general and with children who I have seen through school - not the parish.

I wish this was a parish problem. At least if they were in church we'd have a chance to reach out to them and their families. Sadly I know of far too many teenagers who have rarely, if ever, set foot in any church. Many are athiests and pagans. The problem is not that these kids have rejected Christ or the Church. The problem is that they never knew Him to begin with.

I'm not just talking about Catholic families, but of families from all faith traditions. If you look at recent polls you'll find that religion is less and less important across the board. But that's a story for another thread.

I started this thread in an attempt to help those families who are trying to bring their children to Mass. I also started this thread for me. I want to find ways to help and encourage those who do bring their children to Mass. I would far rather deal with the disruption of children than have a nice, peaceful Mass with no children.

For the record, my new pastor has a reputation for being great with the youth. I'm looking forward to that. I also can't recall any serious child related problems at Mass. We do have however several babies who love too coo during Mass. It's really cute when you have one the baby is answered by the cooing of a baby that's on the other side of the church. We also have several little ones who are absolutly adorable when they walk up in the Communion line. I have to admit that I love seeing my priests bend down to bless a small child.

I'm one of those people who wants all children at Mass. As children get older they have more pressures from society to do drugs, drink, have premarital sex with multiple partners and all sorts of distructive behaviors. They need religion, one that teaches them about Christ and gives them a good moral foundation, to help them stear clear of the distructive behaviors. Without God it is that much harder to avoid the evils that are found in society. As I said to Dean, when parents fail in their responsibility to their children, it's the children who suffer. And not introducing them to God is one of those failures.

We need to encourage parents to bring their children to church. We need to make families feel welcome. We need to give families a place where they can turn to. That's why I started this thread. Knowing my pastor, he would agree.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie --

I remember those days, too. We had three boys, ages 6, 4, and 2 at Mass. And with Christopher's delays, it was more like 4, 3, and 2. I tried so hard to keep them all attentive to the Mass, or at least to do nothing to distract others. I left Mass exhausted, as you say.

Finally I realized, I am worrying too much. Little boys are not going to be perfect in church, and virtually everyone will allow them a little slack. I needed to stop worrying about what everyone else was thinking. I was exhausting myself when it wasn't necessary.

_________________
-- Fred M

Effie, based on the topic of this thread, it appeared to me that we, including you, were all giving experiences from our parishes...not society in general.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Effie, thank you for starting this thread! I think part of the issue is the existence of the "cry room". I live in an area that has a tri-parish cluster made up of three small-town churches. The parish we belong to is a very small country church that is over 100 years old. Mass is held at 9:15 and, given our current circumstances with our daughter, it is difficult for me to attend with her. (My husband is not Catholic and only attends Mass rarely. If our daughter is not up, then I go alone.) Anyway, our church does not have a cry room--it is one room with a choir loft we recently converted into more seating.

As a result of this, I often attend the 11 am Mass at another church in our cluster. This church is newer and it has a cry room. I've found that, because there is a cry room, other parishoners are much less tolerant of DD's fidgiting. When DD wiggles at our parish, no one seems to mind. At the other church, however, people are noticably irritated, they give the stern looks, and one someone leaned over to me and mentioned that the room was available. In a church a the cry room, people expect you to be in there, unless it is a holiday.

DD is not loud during Mass, but she is a toddler. She has prayer and other religious books to look at, sometimes she might bring a doll. Most of the time, she sits next to me, or in my lap. When we sing, she stands up and "dances" (swaying). She loves Mass! Still, there are times her book thumps on the pew, her feet kick the pew in front of us, or the kneeler just becomes way too tempting.

I would love someone to tell me DD is good during Mass I would be thrilled if someone talked to DD while I put my coat on or offered to carry the diaper bag to the car. Honestly, a sympathetic "I've been there" smile makes all the difference in the world. Knowing that my toddler or my parenting hasn't ruined someone's Sunday means a lot.

_________________
Diana

"It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching. "

St . Francis of Assisi

Things that have helped me:

When somebody gives my son a piece of of hard candy or a sucker during the homily or the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Somebody offering to babysit so I can attend Mass alone

Watching my children while I go to confession

Singing and praying loud and clear. Babies don't care how well you sing, they just like to hear people sing and talk.

Don't leave your purse unzipped, preferably keep it under the pew where my son can't see it.

If I have to take my child outside, it would be nice for someone to let me know when it time to receive Communion, and if I am still able to do so since I've been outside for some segment of the Mass.

Telling me when it is pleasant to sit next to my children during Mass.

Correcting the older children if they aren't showing the proper respect during Mass. If they are going through a rebellious phase, the threat of punishment, reminders of manners, and dirty looks from me won't always work.

A correction from a stranger(s) to the children, not me, reminds them that other people find their behavior completely inappropriate. When people give me dirty looks and corrections for what the older children do, the children simply believe their bad behavior only reflects poorly on me, and they won't take responsibility for their own misbehavior.

My four-year old will cower behind friends, relatives, even strangers during Mass on the occasions that I try to correct her behavior, and people rarely back me up, even though I don't think it unreasonable to expect a four year old to kneel.

Never coddle or entertain a misbehaving child, only babies.

I don't mind people shushing my child, I want to hear the priest also.

Please catch my toddler and prevent him from getting to far from me if he takes off running down the aisle.

If you have the missalette or hymnal, there is much less of a chance that my son will pick it up and rip a page out.

Put your foot against the kneeler when it is in the up position so my son doesn't pull it down and hurt himself.

If he is standing on the kneeler, catch him if he loses his balance.

Watch my toddler after I receive communion so I can pray for a couple minutes so I can pray. It's hard to talk to Jesus when I have worry about my son running off and hurting himself.

Suggestions on what I can do to help my situation instead criticisms about the children not behaving are totally welcome.

In general, behave as though you were my brother, sister, mother, father, or best friend. We are all united in Christ.

I don't need very much help, as I can usually manage the children well on my own. I do need my Catholic brothers and sisters to treat me as one of their own though, as I am the only fervent Catholic in my biological family.

I can help my fellow Catholics also. I can fix your washing machine or your car, I can help with cleaning and yardwork, you can call me if you need me to change a flat tire, I will bring you flowers or cough syrup and chicken noodle soup when you are sick.

And I will pray for my fellow parishioners and all Catholics in general, but I will pray for people specifically if they tell me their name.

_________________
Ellen

“People are saying bad times, the worst of times. The times are evil, the times are troubled.
That’s what people say. Let us live good lives and the times will be good. We are the times;
such as we are, such are the times.”
[Augustine, Sermon 80. 8]

Mary,



You missed that my response was to a specific comment that Dean made about people criticizing how he is raising his children.


Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Ellen you had some great suggestions. I have to add that some of what you are asking is a bit unrealistic.



The day before Mass make it real clear that if you end up having to correct them for x,y or z that they will lose the following priviledges (such as TV, phone, IPOD, going to a friend etc.) and then stick to it. A few Sunday's of that and they won't have any problems remembering how to behave. I once read a story of a father who, after Mass was over, told his children that since they weren't paying attention to the readings and the prayers that they would stay for the next Mass. They did. It was the last time that the kids misbehaved at Mass.



Unless this is someone who you asked to help you, don't expect strangers to do the correcting for you. While I will be more than happy to help you catch your toddler or grab him if he's about to fall (who among us hasn't had that a toddler take off), correcting someone else's child (unless that child was left in my care) isn't my responsibility. If I do end up having to correct a child while the parent is there, then yes, it does reflect badly on the parent.





You bring up a good point, the need for a parish family. Like you, I had no fervent Catholics in the family. My family wasn't even Catholic. While everyone was very nice in church and as we left church, it would have been nice and helpful to have been included in a "Catholic" family circle outside of the Mass.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Diana,



Good suggestions, thank you.

I wonder if people are sometimes leary of approaching a mom with a baby because they are afraid that their offer to help might be seen in the wrong way. Let's face it, as a mom you're sometimes stuck between a rock and a hard place. While you'd love the help, you are going to be leary of a stranger who is paying too much attention to your child.


Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie,

Yes, that's true--except I wouldn't think anything of a couple, other mom or single woman helping. I might be too trusting, but other than single men (sorry!) most people would not make me nervous.

We are in a small town, though, and although I know bad things happen everywhere, I am more prone to trust other people I don't know--maybe there are some people who are leery, some who just don't want to impose, but I think there are also those who are just plain irritated by the tots and don't want to help

_________________
Diana

"It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching. "

St . Francis of Assisi

I know you wouldn't feel comfortable correcting someone else's child. I do not expect it, nor do I think you should take on responsibility for someone else's is child because they are doing nothing about it. I am suggesting that you back a mother up when a child is being defiant, not undermine her authority. Get on the mother's side and tell the kid to listen to their mom.

I do administer solid consistant punishments for unacceptable behavior during Mass. I have in my care 2 children I had no part in raising, and my husband is away from home a lot because of his job. They have not been raised Catholic, and have no clue why I have such a big problem with talking during Mass because nobody else seems to care and everybody always talks in their old church.

After the 3rd time I say "Stop whispering (or talking to me), you are being rude and people are trying to pray," it would just really help if one other Catholic saw me trying and struggling and would back me up. You know how annoying it is to hear, "Ellen. Ellen. Ellen. Ellen, when are we leaving? Ellen? Ellennnnnnnn! Ellen. Ellen, I am going up to get me some of that bread. Ellen, how much longer until it is time to leave? Ellen how much longer until this is over? Elllllllen. Ellllllllllllennnnnnnn. I think I need to go to the bathroom. Ellennnnnnnn!" for the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist?

It's frankly miserable to have a child on punishment for this for weeks on end, yet I continue. Obviously I cannot say or do anything that will get through to him. I just think it would be helpful if somebody would bother to say "She's right, you shouldn't talk in Church, and you are bothering everyone around you."

_________________
Ellen

“People are saying bad times, the worst of times. The times are evil, the times are troubled.
That’s what people say. Let us live good lives and the times will be good. We are the times;
such as we are, such are the times.”
[Augustine, Sermon 80. 8]

Ellen,



Now I see what you're saying. I'm with you on this.




The best way to guarantee that is to plan it ahead of time. Have you tried asking someone that you know to sit near you and do exactly that? Even better, if you know any teenagers who go to Mass - especially a tall teenage boy - ask them. Hearing it from a teen might have a greater impact.

How old are your children? If we know their ages we might be able to give you a few ideas.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Good question!

Okay, there's this family that sits behind us in church just about every Sunday. We got to know them since we've been going for awhile. Their oldest daughter is 15 and has even babysat for us.

This family has done more to save our sanity and make church pleasant for us than anyone else. Several months ago, Mary (the mom) told my daughters that they could sit with them if they could be really well behaved. (With my permission first, of course). It's a special treat for the girls to sit in the pew behind us with them, and of course the girls will kneel, pray, and pay much better attention than when they sit with us.

There's also times that one of the girls wants to throw an all out tantrum because mommy or daddy have said no, and she and her daughters are great at calming them down. When the baby gets restless, and our arms are aching from her wiggling, Mary will take a turn with her.

We actually have close relationships with several parishoners at our church. These people are like family to the girls, and after church, they love running up to their "friends" for hugs and tickles. Sometimes they get little treats for special occasions.

I think that those kinds of relationships are important for us since we have no family support. I want the girls to feel that they have a "home" with our church family.

So my answer is, go out of your way to cultivate a relationship with some of these families. Just say hi every week, tell them they their kids are beautiful, and tell the children how glad you are to see them or that you noticed how pretty they sang during the Processional.

_________________
Jean

Effie,

13 year old girl (raised Baptist)
8 year old boy (raised Baptist)
4 year old girl
20 month old boy

The 8 year old is the talkative, willful child. The 12 year old only whispers to the other children to help manage problems and remind them to be quiet, kneel, stand, etc (Like I do ). I can't sit next to 4 children at once, so she sits at one end and I sit at the other and I rely on her for help.

The 4 year old and 20 month old are usually quiet and undisruptive, and except for the 20 month olds tendency to stand on the kneelers, I have no major problems right now.

We don't know anyone yet, this is a new parish for us. I've only been here for 3 weeks.

I would appreciate any suggestions, and candy won't work on the 8 year old, because he will talk with his mouth full.

_________________
Ellen

“People are saying bad times, the worst of times. The times are evil, the times are troubled.
That’s what people say. Let us live good lives and the times will be good. We are the times;
such as we are, such are the times.”
[Augustine, Sermon 80. 8]

Have you tried sitting in the front? If he knows that the priest could actually "see" him, maybe it would help?

_________________
Jean

When my children were little, I tried to sit up front with them, so that they could see. But arriving at the last minute, or a minute late, I couldn't take the front pew, even if it were empty.

The next best choice was the main aisle, with a clear view of the sanctuary. Placing one child in the aisle seat worked very well. When traveling, I really appreciated churches "in the round" because every aisle seat had a clear vlew.

I agree that it is too much to expect strangers to correct your children. Most people don't see that as their responsibility, and those who do ... have probably experienced a backlash from some parents (in stores, restaurants, etc.) so they would hesitate for that reason.

I'm always on alert when there is a toddler climbing on a kneeler or leaning across the back of a pew. Toddlers are so top-heavy they can tip over and fall very easily. I always move to where I can catch the child, just in case.

I've come up with a simple solution to stopping a toddler who is running off. You don't want to grab the child, unless there is a clear and present danger. So just look behind them and say "Oh-oh!" That alerts the parent as well.

_________________
-- Fred M

Ellen,

Try taking the 8 year old to church when there is no Mass going on. Walk around with him and get him familiar with the paintings, statues, altar, tabernacle etc. Tell him stories about the saints whose statues he'll see and explain what goes on during the Mass. Another thing you can try is to introduce him to the missal. Show him how he can read along. Perhaps this will help him be more focused during the Mass.

Another thing you can try is instead of sitting on the end, have the eight year old on the end with you sitting next to him. That will rid him of the distractions that may be caused by the little ones.

Have you tried rewards? Start small and work your way up. If he kneels quiety throughout the consecration you'll do X after Mass. Once he masters that work your way up.

Last but not least, ask the priest if he has time for you to stop by so that he can meet the children. This is a good time of year to do that because summers are slow.

The more comfortable the kids are with their surroundings, the better the chance of them paying attention to what's going on.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Jean,

I am jealous! I really needed what you have when our kids were little. Keep up the good work. Those people who sit behind you sound wonderful.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Jean, this is very edifying especially since it's precisely what the Church is asking of all of us.

Check out the words of Pope John Paul II in his APOSTOLIC LETTER NOVO MILLENNIO INEUNTE


Your post shows clearly what God does for us through the Liturgy..if we are receptive.

Seeing the Body of Christ becoming more and more visible in the world brings hope to a great many people, and from there it will reach out to even more...until one day we will see more clearly the reality of Jesus's words; "that they may all be one..."

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Effie, they are. They've even offered to take the kids for us the rest of the day. Now that Josie's a bit older, I might just take them up on it. [/quote]

_________________
Jean

Effie,
I'm a brand new convert to the Church, and I don't know the Stations and very many saints yet. He hates reading and this is a big obstacle because I love reading. However, I think if one of the priests or the deacon gave him a tour, or if I scheduled a tour of the cathedral, it might help. I think I've seen I coloring book style missal that explains the Mass. He likes to color (he won't color or read in Church though because he thinks it's disrespectful), and he could follow along with pictures. Thank you for giving me these ideas.




I have not tried rewards, but I may try it to stop the talking. I do not insist the older children stand, kneel, sing, exchange the sign of peace or pray, and I don't know whether I should bribe them to do so or not. They have told me they do not want to be Catholic, but have spontaneously begun kneeling, singing, praying, and going to receive a blessing from the priest during the past 2 weeks.



I'd like to meet the new priest, but it's still his first week at the parish. Do you think he would have time for us?




Jean,
Fourth row is the closest I've been able to get. We take up an entire pew, so I might have to get there more than 10 minutes before Mass to get the front pew. That might help, because the 8 yo would have a clear line of vision, but if he can see what is happening then he will also have lots more to talk about.

Should we sit closest to the choir, or sit where the kids would have the clearest path to the priest to receive a blessing during communion? I would think sitting near the choir and podium would keep them quieter during Mass, but with 4 children it may disrupt the flow of traffic to jump to the other line.



Fred,

I respectfully disagree. If the parents aren't taking responsibility it's not up to you, leave them alone, you probably will get a backlash. I was referring to assisting parents who are taking responsibility, but the child openly rebelling against their efforts.

When a mother is correcting her child most people say, "Oh it's okay, he's not bothering anyone," "Don't be so harsh, she's just being a child," "He isn't hurting anything," or the worst "Don't worry, I don't mind if you (fill in the blank)." This is what undermines a mother's authority.

A stranger can comfortably lend aid by telling a child to do what the parent is asking or reminding him he making his mother's life very difficult. It makes the child aware he is wrong and is embarrassing himself.

Admonishing another person's child should be an act of solidarity with the parent, making the battle 2 against 1 and disarming the child.

On the other hand, when someone is already struggling with a child, and you tell them the child is bothering you, then the parent has both you and the child angry with them.

Sometimes I think people are to afraid to tell other people's children "no" when it's appropriate because many children are so aggressive.

_________________
Ellen

“People are saying bad times, the worst of times. The times are evil, the times are troubled.
That’s what people say. Let us live good lives and the times will be good. We are the times;
such as we are, such are the times.”
[Augustine, Sermon 80. 8]

Ellen,



When our children were 4 a very nice woman offered to take me and the kids to church on her day off and show us around. I can't remember why she did it. It probably had to do with the fact that she knew that I wasn't Catholic (my husband and children were Catholic). She walked us around the church and told the kids stories about the pictures on the windows, the statues and the stations of the cross. She was able to answer a lot of the kids questions, as well as my own. I have to admit that I thought she was a bit “odd” to say that Jesus was in the Tabernacle. OK, so I've learned a thing or two since then. This woman has since moved. I bumped into her once about 5 or 6 years ago and thanked her again for her tour and told her how it meant to all of us. Who knows (except God of course) she may have been one of the many people who were instrumental in my conversion to the faith.

Since you're new in town, try contacting who ever is in charge of RCIA. Or contact the parish office and ask them if someone can show you around. I work in a parish office. If someone came to me with a question like that I could easily introduce them to a dozen people who would be happy to help. You could also go to daily Mass and look for a person who loves children and seems to know what they are doing. I have found that when asked, most people love to help.

Have you registered with your new parish? If not, do it. Registration is a good time to find out what is available and who you can talk to for different things.



Bribing and rewards are not the same thing. The point is to reward good behavior, not bribe them to be good. If you bribe them to do what you want, then the lesson learned is to only do things if there is something in it for them.

A reward on the other hand lets them know that you noticed and appreciate their efforts. At this point the best reward would be praise and positive reinforcement. Something like “you have a beautiful voice, or, that woman behind us really appreciated that you noticed her and shook her hand or thank you for setting such a good example for the little ones” can help a lot. As can a smile to let them know that you are proud of their efforts.



Since it's July, yes. If he’s the pastor, give him a few weeks. If he’s not the pastor, go ahead and approach him now. You could even invite him over for dinner.



Basically what you are saying is that you want people to back you up, not undermine what you are trying to do. I wouldn’t remind a stranger’s child that he’s making mom’s life difficult. If you say that you might end up with mom making your life difficult. But I would have no problem with giving the child a stern look and say something like “listen to your mother.” That way the mom (or dad) knows that you are backing up what they are doing rather than trying to discipline their child.




If you see an aggressive child chances are good you’ll find an aggressive or incredibly lax parent. Parents like that are not usually open to having their child corrected.

For most parents I think the not saying no has more to do with respecting another parent. I really have no business correcting another person’s child unless I am responsible for that child or if the child is doing something dangerous. Backing up a parent however is another story. As you suggested, some back up can be helpful. Even a simple “your mom’s right” can do a lot.


Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie,

It occurred to me while reading the other thread that the biggest thing adults can do to help children during Mass is to exemplify the expected behaviors. I think, even at a young age, DD watches everyone around her very closely. She is already starting to look for certain people at Mass (not necessarily people we know, just people she recgonizes). The more that adults show reverance, the easier it will be for her to mimic the behavior.

(Likewise, the more the adults around us chew gum, whisper to each other, snicker under their breath, and leave right after communion, the more likely she will be restless too!)

It also occurred to me that maybe the problem is not so much the parenting as the role modeling from the adults is not as reverent as it once was. If adults are not focused as much on the behaviors of ther people's children, and more on their own, maybe our children would behave better. Just a thought

_________________
Diana

"It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching. "

St . Francis of Assisi

Oh, I forgot to complete the thought that weekly Mass attendance is a part of this too. DD is looking for people she knows, and I think it is comforting to her when she sees the same people week after week.

_________________
Diana

"It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching. "

St . Francis of Assisi

Diana,

Good points about exemplifying the desired behaviors. When I see adults in the pews zoning out, reading the bulletin or even other secular books, chewing gum, etc., instead of prayerfully participating in the Mass, it sends the signal to children that this is acceptable behavior.

All of us (kids included) are taught more by what we see than what we are told.

_________________
Kris H.

"He is Your best servant who desires not so much to hear from You what may be comfortable to his own will, but rather to conform his will to whatever he shall hear from You."--St. Augustine of Hippo

Have you seen EWTN Kids I think there may be a simple church tour in there.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Diana,

Excellent points.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Kris,



I said it before but I'll say it again. When I first started attending the Mass I believed that the Eucharist was symbolic. Seeing people who bowed and genuflected towards the Eucharist helped me learn to understand Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist.

You're right, our actions teach a lot.


Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie, I'm glad you said it again, I didn't know that story!

_________________
Diana

"It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching. "

St . Francis of Assisi

So, OK, I found this thread a little while ago and it was already long when I found it. I wanted to read the whole thing before I posted anything substantive, but that ain't gonna happen. So I sort of skimmed the posts, but didn't read too closely, but I'm gonna post anyway. Nobody minds, right?

Someone up near the top said something about others engaging her kids being a problem during Mass (or something like that.) As sad as I am to admit it, this truly is a problem for us, too.

Not that I would ever tell anybody not to tell my daughter her dress is pretty, no, I would never tell somebody that! But you've got to realize that when you tell a 4 year old little girl her dress is pretty, she's going to spend the rest of the entire Mass spinning around to show you how the skirt billows and makes her look like a princess. That's just the way of 4 year old little girls.

Similarly, I wouldn't ever tell anybody not to smile and wave at my baby boy. But, you have to realize that if you do, he's going to try to play peekaboo with you for the rest of the Mass. That's just the way of babies. Ooh, ooh! I just remembered! If you pick up that toy he dropped, he's going to keep dropping it, so you can keep picking it up. This is the best game ever.

I am not calling for a sterile world where nobody talks to me or my children. Not at all. But maybe, for your own sake it's better to save all the cooing until after Mass. Just a thought. I am like Dean, I don't think it's everybody else's responsibility to control my children's behavior, but this is something that might help a little.

Speaking of something that helped a little....

Somebody else mentioned other people saying things to the children about their behavior. One time, only once, a very nice lady told my daughter in the sweetest way possible, that it's nice to come to Church, and Church is a good place to go, but she should be quiet when she goes to Church. It worked wonders. I think my daughter finally internalized what we had been telling her. When she is disruptive, it bothers not only Mommy and Daddy, but everybody. That she doesn't live in a bubble, and her behavior has an impact on other people -- even strangers.

Now, for the millionth time I have to clarify that I do not think it is anybody else's responsibility to control my children. But sometimes it helps to have allies, not adversaries, in the pews.

Thanks,

_________________
Elizabeth V.
Mother of the two cutest children in the world. Both in the same family! What are the odds?!

Speak, for Your servant is listening. 1 Sam 3:10

Elizabeth,



Very nicely stated. In days gone past, moms used to appreciate when neighbors would call to inform them of their children's misbehavior. Now it is inviting a lawsuit for "invasion of privacy." Rather than looking at the situation as one where neighbors (or fellow church-goers) are participating in "it takes a village," it seems many parents take the report of children's misdeeds as criticism of themselves. We welcome it when someone corrects our children, as long as it is done nicely.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I did a cursory search on the thread to see if anyone else had mentioned this already. I saw no one who had done so, but forgive me if it is repeated.

My son is three months old, and has colic, food sensitivity, and/or reflux. Much of the time, there is plenty we can do to quiet him if he is vocally unhappy at mass. Sometimes, there is nothing that can be done, and the easiest thing to do is for my wife to take him from the sanctuary.

To this end, it would be most helpful if those people who seem to find it compelling and neccesary to sit on the end of a pew would do the courteous thing they should be doing anyway and move to the center, to make room for others. That way, when my wife does have to leave the sanctuary, she does not have to climb over a dozen people to do so, so that my son does not distract everyone else.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Jeff, you wouldn't find that situation in all parishes. For instance, my own parish is one of the most mature parishes I've ever been in.

You may want to read the following snippets concerning what makes the difference in some parishes

viewtopic.php?p=608375#608375

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

I had to revive this thread because someone did something very helpful for me today! While working at VBS, another mom and I struck up a conversation. They have 7 children and we started to talk about how hard it can be to be in Mass with a toddler (her youngest is 7, so she's been there!). Anyway, after a bit of conversation about the trials of the cry room and that my husband is not Catholic so I often attend alone, she suggested that I join her family in one of the front pews. She went on to say that they are there to help with Liv during Mass--even if it is just to have her children there are good role models

Just wonderful--prayers answered! Instead of waiting for the moment when the screaming is happening, she offered help beforehand, let me know where they sit and was so nice about it. Just thought I'd pass it on to those who are willing and able to offer such help to another--I could've cried right there!

_________________
Diana

"It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching. "

St . Francis of Assisi

Effie,



I take two or three little ones with me to Mass on a regular basis. My husband doesn't come with us, so I have to admit I often think it would be nice to get some help from people. Feedback about whether or not my kids are bothering them can be helpful, if done nicely. There are definitely a few times I wished someone would have the guts to do as you described here, a stern look and a "listen to your mother".

One thing that helps me is when other people sit in the same pew as me. This was especially helpful during the phase when my son tried to run into the aisle every 5 minutes. I can only sit on one side of him, so it was nice when someone else sat in the same pew and I could box him in. My kids are shy, so having someone in the same pew as me often has a somewhat calming effect on them.

Personally, I think that if someone walked up to me before Mass and said, "Do you want any help with your kids?" I'd be happy to be specific with them about what they could do to help me. The Mass coordinator(s) say they have trouble finding volunteers; since I'd love to volunteer to lector, I wonder if there isn't someone around who doesn't want to lector, but would be happy to watch my kids long enough for me to.

AJ

I was just given the link to this forum, because this topic came up and I asked for orthodox advice on bringing children to mass without cheerios.

As far as what others can do to help me at mass goes...

Please, don't have conversations with your friends during mass. And if you do, please don't get upset that my two year old wants to talk too.

Please don't give my children treats in the middle of mass, if I wanted them to have treats, I would give them. (Although, my son and I appreciated the prayer cards one lady gave him.)

Please don't get upset if I don't want my child to play with your child's toys until after mass.

Please let us out of the pew if we need to go, especially if you hear the two year old loudly announcing to the world that he needs to go "potty."

If you have helpful advice, I'd love to hear it, especially if you've raised children of your own. If you want to tell me how my parenting skills are lacking (I'm too strict, I'm too lenient, I should leave the kids home, I should find another parish, etc.) then I really would rather not hear it, no offense.

And lastly, I would *love* if somebody came up and introduced themselves to me. I've recently moved and am coming alone to mass (most days) with two young children. We would love to feel welcomed here, and supported. (I've tried introducing myself to people, but so far no response. I'm coming from a parish where I had a lot of friends, including my sons' godparents. But, I was basically told to leave because of my children.)

Jennifer

Hi Jennifer!

I'm glad to see you here. I linked to this thread because it seems like there is always some thread or other going on about how kids behave at Mass. I hope you get good help.

For me, I've changed what works a few times. I've found that sitting up front helps with my 4 yo daughter, but we have to sit by a door up front so I can escape with my 1 yo son when he needs to go out.

I've also found, for my kids, there's a happy medium between bringing too much stuff and not bringing any stuff. I don't expect them to sit still the whole time without any distractions. We bring a picture missal for our daughter, and when she gets wiggly, we tell her to look in her book to find out this part. For my son, I'll bring 2 or 3 simple, quiet toys. If I don't bring anything, they get wiggly. If I bring too much, they get wired. So I just bring a little bit.

I also try to get there early enough to get an aisle seat. You wouldn't believe how awful I felt one Sunday when I had to ask a couple to get up off their kneeler during the Eucharistic Prayer so I could get out with the baby. But what was I supposed to do? Let him keep screaming?

But I try not to get there too early, because that's just longer the kids have to sit still and be good.

We started a happy face chart for my daughter. She knows how she's expected to behave. When she does, she gets a happy face. When she doesn't, then she doesn't. After 5 happy faces, she gets $1 to take to the Dollar Tree and buy whatever she wants. She even helped my husband put the chart together on the computer. She chose the colors and about 5 photos of her friends to decorate it. She feels a little ownership in it.

Finally, I try to get away once and a while during the week without the kids to go to Mass or Adoration, so I can get "filled up" especially when it was a bad day at Sunday Mass.

_________________
Elizabeth V.
Mother of the two cutest children in the world. Both in the same family! What are the odds?!

Speak, for Your servant is listening. 1 Sam 3:10