Catholic Online Forum

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Horrible! Prayers going up for all affected by this heinous crime!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

I hope that this will not become another Iraq where the Copts will be killed right and left and forced to flea their homeland. Unlike Iraq there are millions of Christians in Egypt and my understanding is that Egypt has the majority of the Christians of the Middle East.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

RE: Comment from Egyptian journalist Hani Shukrallah after the bombing

I just finished reading an American editorial premised upon Hani Shukrallah's editorial that some may be interested in:

• American Thinker: Prominent Editor in Egypt: 'I Accuse!'

-small excerpt:

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Hi, All!

On Jan. 6, Egyptian Muslims attended Christmas Mass to stand in solidarity with the Christians and to protect them from Muslim terrorists:

Egyptian Muslims Act as Human Shields to Protect Christians

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Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

That is the most hopeful sign I have seen.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

There are a lot of good Moslems in Egypt and elsewhere.
I think that the only hope in fighting Islamic terrorism lies in the hands of these good Moslems. Without them the West cannot accomplish much (without resorting to extreme measures).

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

The latest:

Top Muslim scholars announce boycott of dialogue with Vatican
Top Muslim academics in Egypt have announced they are suspending all dialogue with the Vatican to protest Pope Benedict XVI’s remarks about anti-Christian violence in Egypt.
...........................
Ahram Online reported that the decision to suspend the dialogue was made unanimously in response to the Pope’s reference “to the discrimination endured by Coptic Christians in Egypt” after a bombing at a Coptic Orthodox church left 23 people dead.

Sheik el-Tayeb already had criticised the Pope’s remarks as “unacceptable interference in Egypt’s affairs.”

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/20 ... h-vatican/

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

MUSLIM LEADERS ATTACK THE POPE The president of Al-Azhar, an Egyptian university, Sheikh Ahmed el-Tayeb, along with the leading members of the Islamic Research Academy, announced today they are breaking off dialogue with the Vatican in response to Pope Benedict XVI's criticism of Muslim violence against Christians. After the suicide bombing of a Coptic Christian church in Alexandria that killed 23 people, the pope called attention to "non-Muslims being oppressed by Muslim states in the Middle East," and complained that not enough was being done by Muslim-run governments to protect Christians.

Sheikh Ahmed is now accusing the pope of interfering in an "internal affair," and is leading a boycott of future Catholic-Muslim dialogue. This follows an Arab leadership summit held yesterday that also denounced "foreign interference in Arab affairs." Already, the annual inter-religious meeting between the Vatican and Muslim leaders scheduled for next month has been called off.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue defended the pope today:

We are constantly being told that Islam is just like every other world religion—indeed, it is a religion of peace—and that while every religion has its share of crazies, most Muslims are no different than most Christians and Jews. Yet daily we read about unprovoked violence, or threats of it, against Christians and Jews, and just as often we read how it is justified by leading Muslims clerics in the name of their religion.

If a lone Christian zealot kills an abortionist, he gets zero support from Christian leaders. But when a Muslim woman decides to convert, there is no end to the number of Muslim leaders who say she should be put to death. If this is what the "religion of peace" believes, God help those who live under its more radical rulers.

The Muslim leaders also blasted the Holy Father again for his 2006 speech at Regensburg University. At that time, the pope warned against the evils of faith without reason, and reason without faith. The pope was right then, and he is right now. Indeed, these Muslims give expression to the former evil.
Jeff Field
Director of Communications
The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
450 Seventh Avenue
New York, NY 10123

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Take a look at this video: Our Lady in the Christianity-Islam Collision

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Great link Ian, thanks.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

The latest development:

Council of Europe Calls for Defense of Christians
Recommends Monitoring Religious Freedom in Member States

The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe today adopted a Recommendation in 17 points on "Violence against Christians in the Middle East."
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The Council of Europe specifically condemned two recent episodes of anti-Christian violence: the Oct. 31 attack on a church in Baghdad, Iraq, and the Jan. 1 bombing of a church in Alexandria, Egypt. It further mentions a Christmas episode in Cyprus.
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Different problem

A statement from the European Centre for Law and Justice welcoming the vote noted some Members of the Assembly also observed that negating the role of Christianity in European culture is "also a kind of violence" against Christians.

Referring to anti-Christian persecution by communist regimes and by Islamic fundamentalists, the ECLJ statement asserted that "the secularist ideology also discriminates against religions, at a different level."

In this regard, "Europeans should be consistent," it added.

http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-31591

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Thank you for the link Ian. I have heard Father Corapi mentioned many times here but haven't bothered to listen much but your link led me to listen to other talks and they were quite edifying so thank you again.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

You are welcome, Val. Time permitting, I will keep adding video links of useful Catholic topics from time to time. I like the Archbishop Fulton Sheen videos.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

From the recommendation: 11.2. develop, as a matter of urgency, a Council of Europe strategy for the enforcement of freedom of religion (including the freedom to change one’s religion) as a human right, including a list of measures against states which knowingly fail to protect religious denominations;

I wonder what exactly they are willing to do... what kind of pressure are they willing to exert on Saudi Arabia, one of the worst offenders?

13. Following the adoption by the European Parliament of a resolution on the situation of Christians in the context of freedom of religion, on 20 January 2011, the Assembly calls on Turkey to clarify fully the circumstances surrounding the interruption of the celebration of Christmas Mass in the villages of Rizokarpaso and Ayia Triada in the northern part of Cyprus on 25 December 2010 and to bring to justice those responsible.

I'll eat my hat if Turkey does anything.

On another subject, I wonder how Christians will be effected if the Mubarak regime falls.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace,
I do not know what Europe can do since they think that exchanging words will work.
I now hear that if the government of Mubarak falls the Moslem Brotherhood will probably take over. If that happens they will not offer the jizya (paying money) option to the Christians because the latest thing coming from El Azhar (mentioned on another thread) is:

‘Two schools [of Islamic jurisprudence] have ruled that offensive jihad is permissible in order to secure Islam’s border, to extend God’s religion to people in cases where the governments do not allow it, such as the Pharaoh did with the children of Israel, and to remove every religion but Islam from the Arabian peninsula.’ “

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/comment ... e-of-time/

"To remove every religion but Islam" means only one thing and that is to get rid of non-Moslems one way or another and if they are merciful they will allow the Christians to leave the country- but if they think that God wills the killing of the infidels then they will kill them all if they do not convert.
I hope and pray that Mubarak stays in power.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Well, except that Egypt is not on the Arabian peninsula, so maybe they won't include it?
There are more than a million Christians (non-citizens) working on the Arabian peninsula.
Things weren't wonderful for Christians under Mubarak, but they could get a lot worse.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

All Christians can be targets even the ones outside of the Arab world according to that article- they call it "offensive jihad". So if they feel that the Christians of Egypt are siding with the west (as they said about the ones in Iraq) then they will justify killing them.

Mubarak was good to the Christians of Egypt. He instated a national holiday for Christmas which was a very dangerous move on his part. He put his life on the line when he did that.
The Coptic Orthodox Church leaders backed Mubarak and now they are backing his son.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Yes.


I didn't know about Christmas. Are they now backing his son-- I mean in the last couple of days have they said anything? (Might be better to keep quiet).
He may have done some good things for the Christians, but still they have suffered persecution for decades, well forever really, and have been murdered practically with impunity, can't build churches, have difficulty repairing them, are discriminated against in many ways, etc.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

It is true that they did suffer in the past but Mubarak is at least trying to remedy things. No one can turn things 180 degrees all at once-things have to change gradually.
What the Copts suffer now is nothing compared to what will happen to them if the Moslem Brotherhood takes over.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

These are dangerous times for Egypt -- and for the non-Arab world. The country is a centre of radical Islamic thought and groups, and has produced some of the vilest Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists ... including the World Trade Centre 1993 bombing mastermind Omar Abdel-Rahman. Many of them are connected to Islam's most prestigious university, Al-Azhar, which is the de facto authority on Islamic doctrine.

The problem is if the moderate Muslims manage to gain power from Murbarak, how long will they last before they are in turn taken over by the fundamentalists?

Most, if not all, Arab governments of post-World War Two were secular in nature, most probably did not give two hoots about Islam, but used the religion to hold on to power and then suppressed Islamists when they threatened the regime. Their brand of rule was never sustainable ... and Tunisia and now Egypt are the result of this.

If the fundamentalists ultimately take over the Arab world after these uprisings, through force or converting the masses with their doctrines, what is the rest of the non-Islamic world in for?

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

I predict that many of the "community organizers" now fomenting these coincidental uprisings will be found to have had backing from the current US administration.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

In my opinion, not good specifically or for the region in general. As well, not good for Israel.

Maybe that Nobel Peace Prize was a joke? I see nothing...

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I heard that it is the Moslem Brotherhood that is fomenting all this. Do you think the US is backing them?
Regardless of who they are- why would the US want to get rid of a regime that is friends with them and with Israel?

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

I specifically referred to the US administration which has among its staff many radicals. There is a difference between the US the nation and the people and the present US administration who will be but historical footnotes in less than two years.

Why? Who knows why -I do not understand these people. Green Energy? World Government? Redistribution of Wealth? Anti Imperialism, class warfare -the oppressed toppling the oppressors?

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I will add for any interested that a portion of my reasoning that goes into my theory as to what happens behind the scenes is premised upon what happens upon the stage. Comparing and contrasting what happens now in Egypt with what happened recently in Iran as far as protests. The Obama administration said nothing about the Iranian government (an enemy of the US) as far as supporting the people protesting the government UNTIL forced to -this after a woman was murdered and it was broadcast worldwide. Here with the Egyptian government (an ally of the US) we see the Obama administration warn the government not to get violent and as well support the protesters. I see and consider this contrast and I am thinking -what is up with that? I look at actions from the Obama administration rather than words -since long ago, they have proven the words they utter are meaningless.

So, why the difference -fear of Iran and but not of Egypt? Kick your friends and kiss your enemies? Principles of freedom that only apply to allies and not to enemies? It seems the approach seen from the Obama administration is opposite that required for US national interests.

Anyway, time will tell if this is another winning the future moment for the administaration...

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Not much being written at the moment about Christians, but Asia News has this:
Burdened by the high cost of living and corruption, Christians and Muslims united in Cairo streets
An interview with a Coptic priest follows.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

I pray that those who protest with legitimate concerns are protected by God and that those who would illegitimately seek to gain power in the midst of this will be thwarted by God.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Amen.
There is fear that those with a personal agenda are causing all the mayhem taking place right now-looting and burning in many spots.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

I pray that they get democracy and free elections soon.
There have been some very hopeful things in the news. Someone wrote that they were in a crowd where a few started chanting Islamist slogans, but the crowd admonished them and started chanting something like Muslims and Christians, we are all Egyptian together. I also read that the majority of Egyptian Muslims want to give Christians full rights and equality (as in building places of worship, etc). I'm also glad to see that they have not looted their own hospitals and museums like the Iraqis. They say that as Egypt goes, so goes the Middle East, so please, let's all PRAY for this situation to have a good outcome.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace,

I have been praying.....very difficult and frightening situation. I read that the military is guarding the main museum...the National museum? As well as other important historic sites and obviously government buildings.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

There were attempts to loot the National Museum, stores, and some hospitals. They were partially successful in some cases. My understanding is that now things are more calm since the army became present everywhere.

There is a fear that things will not really turn democratic as the West is hoping. The same situation took place in Iran when the Shah was deposed- and we know how things ended it up over there. In other words, what the Copts have now is much better than other radical regimes that might take over. The choice is not simply just between Mubarak and Democracy. Israel and the US knows this and that is why they are not calling for the ouster of Mubarak.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

The news has just come out (because of the internet blackout) that at the beginning of the revolt, Muslims attacked two Christian families in Upper Egypt, killing eleven people including children.

Islamist Muslims Attack Two Christian Families in Egypt, Killing Eleven

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

This killing of the Copts will become more prevalent if the Moslem Brotherhood takes over.
The choice is between having a partially good government and a wholly bad one (for Christians).

It will not happen soon that a Christian will take over or that the Christians will be 100% protected. Even the Moslems are targets of the radical groups. I think it was in Pakistan that a politician who wanted to repeal an anti-christian rule had to change his mind because of the death threats he got. In other words a moderate Moslem was threatened by the radicals and had to give in to them. The threat of death is a very powerful weapon that these radicals use to get their way. The good do not use this weapon but the radicals do, and it results in them getting their way- more so if they have political power.

So this hoping for perfection is not practical and this dreamy pursuit of Utopia can cause more damage. In pursuing perfection we can get a wholly bad government (radicals) to replace a partially bad government (moderates).
One has to realize that ordinarily, and in real life, nations do not turn 180 degrees overnight.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

I would guess that the silent majority in Egypt would agree with this sentiment. The media seems to be fanning the flames and calling this a revolution for democracy. To me it just looks like a power struggle.

I think the Obama administration has picked the wrong side in the power struggle --just a feeling, that cooler heads will prevail and the muslim brotherhood will be kicked to the curb... The regional powers that be will choose stability over revolution and anarchy.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

The majority are not fully silent but their voice and their demonstrations are not covered by the media. The vocal minority is what we are seeing now and the fire is fueled by outsiders who either have their own agenda or are naive and do not understand the situation.

I tend to agree with you that stability will prevail- since the attempts at causing anarchy has thus far failed, and the government is increasingly gathering more power and more acceptance by the other legitimate political parties/groups.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

From Zenit:

Patriarch to Egyptians: It's Time to Go Home
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Cardinal Antonios Naguib told his countrymen that the hour has come "to return to your homes and your jobs in peace, following the invitation extended by the authorities to be able to recover what the country has lost."
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Father Rafiq Greish, the director of the press office for the Catholic Church in Egypt, told ZENIT that the Church does not have a political position regarding whether the president stays or goes. It believes in everyone's freedom regardless of political points of view, he said, and it waves the flag of "non-destruction" and encouragement of national dialogue.

He reported that the pope and patriarch of the Orthodox Coptic Church, Shenouda III, has declared his support for the president.

http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-31663

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Thank God.

I pray the escalation of disorder by the few will cease and that the wolves will not be able to hide among the sheep any longer.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

If the US and Iran gets its way we will have the wolves come out of hiding and take over. I am sure you heard of Robert Gibbs saying that the future Egyptian Government has to include “important non-secular actors.” and we all know the only non-secular actors that want to be in politics in Egypt is the Moslem Brotherhood which killed former President Sadat, and was outlawed by the Egyptian Government. So the US is now calling for the Moslem Brotherhood to have part in running the Government of Egypt. I cannot believe the lack of wisdom here. I wonder how Gibbs will react if he is told that all the fundamentalist Christian clerics should be included in the US government.
This really makes me believe more and more what Fr Corapi has said about non-virtuous people and nations choosing what causes their own destruction.

I am hopeful (and pray) that God will not allow Egypt to fall like Iran because of the prayers of the millions of Christians in Egypt.

I thank God that the Moslems that are running the Egyptian government now are standing firm against the "bad advice" of the US (and the West in general) and are exhibiting such courage and wisdom:

Egyptian Prime Minister Ahmad Shafik said Friday that the majority of Egyptian citizens would like Mubarak to leave in a dignified manner, hinting at the impossibility of meeting protesters' calls for Mubarak's resignation and quick departure.
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"The truth, to be very clear, is that if it were possible to hold a general vote regarding demands to have Mubarak leave now, 90 or 95 percent of Egyptians would say that it is all a matter of five months."

Shafik hinted at the possibility of allowing pro-Mubarak protests to take place. "Preparing for protests is possible...to ask the president not to depart today, but rather to leave when his presidential term is over."

"It is possible to find twice as many people who believe in a more dignified exit," added Shafik.

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news/eg ... ays-new-pm

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas