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 Post subject: New Pope & Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2004 05:06 
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Archbishop Theodoros, currently the Metropolitan of Zimbabwe, has been elected Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa, 126th in
succession to the See of St Mark the Evangelist.

The Archbishop was born Nicholas Chorevtakos in Heraklion, Crete, in 1954. He studied theology at the University of Thessaloniki, and was ordained to the diaconate in 1975 and the presbyterate in 1978. He
became Exarch in Odessa of the Patriarchate in 1985 and in 1990 was
elected and ordained Bishop of Cyrene. He was elected Metropolitan of Cameroon in 1997 and Metropolitan of Zimbabwe in 2003.

Axios! Axios! Axios!

Eis pola aeti Despota.

Neil

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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2004 05:49 
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 Post subject: Re: New Pope & Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2004 10:42 
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Irish Melkite wrote:
Archbishop Theodoros, currently the Metropolitan of Zimbabwe, has been elected Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa, 126th in succession to the See of St Mark the Evangelist.


Neil,

This is the first time I have ever heard of the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa. What is the relationship of the See of St. Mark to the other Orthodox Churches (e.g. Greek, Russian) and to the See of St. Peter?

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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2004 09:41 
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LASaxman wrote:
This is the first time I have ever heard of the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa. What is the relationship of the See of St. Mark to the other Orthodox Churches (e.g. Greek, Russian) and to the See of St. Peter?


David,

Alexandria was the See of St. Mark the Evangelist and all of the 4 Patriarchs who hold title to the See of Alexandria deem themselves successors to him. Until Constantinople was accorded precedence over it in 381, by the Second Ecumenical Council, it was deemed next after Rome. There was only a single, unified patriarchate there until 460, when the Copts broke with Rome.

When that separation transpired, a parallel Greek (as the East tended to be termed at that time) jurisdiction was established (this was where the term "Melkite" originated; those in the Coptic sphere of influence who maintained ties to Constantinople - and, thru it, to Rome -were called "King's men" or "Melkites", referring to the Byzantine Empire). The 2 Patriarchates continued until about 1209.

At approximately that point, the Greek patriarchate effectively and finally transferred its communion to Constantinople versus Rome (prior to that date, as was the case in many jurisdictions during the first century and a half post-1054, allegiances shifted back and forth between the two, depending on the hierarch of the moment). So, from 1209 to present, the Patriarch of that See has been Greek Orthodox.

To add to the mix, Rome established a Latin Patriarchate of Alexandria in about 1310, in an effort to proclaim its ecclesial rights. Rome thought of it more as "retaining" those rights; however, retention under a Latin patrimony was somewhat of a non sequitor, since the non-Copts there had been adherents to Eastern liturgical praxis, almost exclusively, for more than half a millenium at that point. Similar Latin patriarchates were established for each of the original Patriarchal Sees although those appointed were sometimes unable to physically take possession of their See, due to the vicissitudes of politico-religious reality and such earthly affairs as war. Eventually, all (except Jerusalem) the Latin Patriachates of the Orient became solely titular - although Alexandria was essentially titular long since, Rome seemingly disinclined to ever push the issue of having actual presence there (alone among the lot in that respect). Ultimately, even the titular patriarchal sees were canonically suppressed, Alexandria in 1964.

In 1835, the Pope granted to the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch Maximos III (Mazloom), of blessed memory, the title of Alexandria ad personam. The title has been afforded likewise to each successive Melkite Patriarch on the occasion of Rome's grant of communion to them. Thus, the Melkite Patriarch is styled "Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, of Alexandria and of Jerusalem of the Melkites".

Rome erected, what had been a Vicariate Apostolic for the Coptic Catholics, as a patriarchate in 1895, styling its incumbents as Patriarch of Alexandria of the Catholic Copts.

Among the various lines that have claimed Mark's succession to be theirs, there have been somewhere between 225 and 250 who have held the title since Saint Mark's establishment of the See, usually reckoned to have been about 43 AD. My hesitancy to put a definite number to the incumbents of the Sees relates to the fact that the counts (especially of the Pre- and Post-Schism Greek lines) are approximations. Different numbers are cited by various sources and counts are made difficult by vacancies, coadjutors, and restorations (instances where a patriarch served more than once, after being deposed). Some sources count each term of office (i.e., each restoration) as a patriarch, others count each individual only once. (Some authorities also hold that the Catholic Melkite exercised the office de facto from shortly after their return to communion with Rome in 1724 until 1835, the year in which the title was formally granted to their Melkite Patriarch ad personam.)

As to the usage "Pope" (i.e., Father, from Greek, papas, a variant, pappas, and Latin, pappas). it was once much more widespread than at present, when folks typically think of it only in its application to the Pope of Rome and, if they are aware of him, the Coptic Pope. Historically, though, it was commonly used in referring to bishops and, in Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) that follow the Greek Tradition, not infrequently to the average priest in the form "papa" or "papas". As an example, if you read the history of Our Lady of Grace in NYC, a parish of the Byzantine Italo-Grieco-Albanian Catholic Church sui iuris, you will see prominent and recurring references to Papas Ciro Pinnola, of blessed memory, the priest who founded the parish a century ago.

Among hierarchy in the West, the title has been essentially restricted to the Pope of Rome since about the 9th century and, in the East (except for the Copts), to the Patriarch (Catholic pre-schism, Greek Orthodox post-schism) of Alexandria. (Among Orthodox, the Greek Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria is still deemed precedentially be next after the Ecumenical Patriarch.)

Hope that answered your question (probably more than you wanted to know)

Many years,

Neil

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"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community." Sayedna Joseph Tawil, 1st Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, 1970


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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2004 02:23 
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What happened to Pope Shenouda III? Are these different Orthodox churches claiming the same seat, that of St. Mark?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2004 05:56 
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Rocky8311 wrote:
What happened to Pope Shenouda III? Are these different Orthodox churches claiming the same seat, that of St. Mark?


Rocky,

His Holiness Pope Shenouda III is the Patriarch and presiding hierarch of the Coptic Church, an Oriental Orthodox Church that adheres to the Alexandrian Rite. See:
Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate

His Beatitude Theodoras II, Pope & Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa is an Eastern Orthodox prelate, of the Greek Orthodox Church, using the Byzantine Rite. See:
Greek Orthodox Patriachate of Alexandria

Many years,

Neil

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"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community." Sayedna Joseph Tawil, 1st Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, 1970


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2004 06:03 
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The link for the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria should be:

http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria/org/

Sorry,

Neil

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"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community." Sayedna Joseph Tawil, 1st Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, 1970


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2004 06:05 
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Try again. Obviously not enough coffee this a.m.

The link for the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria should be:

http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/

Sorry,

Neil :oops:

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"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community." Sayedna Joseph Tawil, 1st Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, 1970


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2004 23:53 
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Gotcha. I didn't realize there were any other hierarchs who still claim the title "Pope". I understand its historical origins, but I thought I had heard that only John Paul and Shenouda used it still. Thanks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2004 08:39 
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Dear Peter:

May I add to what our good friend, Neil, has already posted.

We, Catholics, have the Coptic Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria, his counterpart being the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch. Both are of the Alexandrian Rite and classified as Oriental, i.e., non-Chalcedonian.

However, the Coptic Catholic Patriarch has not, and will not, add "Pope" to his title in deference to Rome. (Of course, there is only ONE Pope in the Catholic Church!)

Technically speaking, therefore, the Eastern Orthodox side should not be there as it is Byzantine and belongs to the Constantinopolitan tradition, of the See of St. Andrew.

Sadly, it is becoming a "pissing off" contest between Rome and "New Rome."

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