Catholic Online Forum

During the 2008 presidential campaign I made a comment that as an Australian, it's not really my business to tell Americans who they should or shouldn't vote for. I went on to say that as a Catholic, I have a duty to remind my fellow Catholics that they may not in good conscience vote for any candidate who is in favour of allowing abortions.

Now, I know many Americans have mixed feelings about Mormons. What I'm not sure of is whether most Americans realise just how risible the rest of the world finds Mormons and how hilariously funny their beliefs are considered. Indeed, I'm not sure how familiar many Americans are with Mormon beliefs. I think most people in this Forum would know a little about a number of Mormon teachings, but more than once I've been surprised by what many here don't know.

Here is a short cartoon that covers the main Mormon beliefs. There's a lot you'll find quite astonishing (not to say blasphemous).

http://www.you-know-what-tube.com/watch?v=7q6brMrFw0E
(You'll need to tidy up the link.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

So, how do we know that this is more reliable than, say, Jack Chick?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

You could read their books (if you have the stomach for it).

I was saving time.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

JMJ

In my humble opinion, the rest of the world is in no position of finding anything risible, especially when part of the rest of the world believes - just like many Americans - in horoscopes, magic rocks and aliens flying over their backyard at night and/or that costly and inefficient spaghetti-monster light-bulbs actually help change natural dynamics of atmospheric strata and gases. Other parts of the world still worship lightnings, spirits of great buffalos - or deities whose prophets are big on cutting throats and polygamy, or slavery, racism and reincarnation depending on where you look. Back to the "developed" parts, many people sincerely believe - just like still too many Americans - that we come from apes that came from artist's concepts of prehistoric sea mammals that came from amoebas that came from unknown planets on some asteroid, or perhaps archaic spaceships, millions of centuries ago (or so). But religion is "irrational". Well, the TV said it, it must be true. How is all of the above less risible and irrational than believing that an angel appeared to an American in Manchester NY?

But all of the above might be a moot question: especially in those terminally smuggish parts with condescending attitudes towards the nation that basically fed and protected their own for decades, the rest of the world simply has no idea whatsoever of what Mormons believe. That is certainly true of Europe, where with the exception of some specialized scholars I have never met anyone having the faintest idea of what LDS think or believe, often confusing them with the Amish communities (but if you really want to see a genuine deer-in-the-headlights face try and utter the word "Mennonite"). And wait till they ask you how many wives Romney has.

An even more sobering thought troubles me though: in places like Rome, Vienna, Madrid, Louvaine, Munich, Paris, Dublin, it is increasingly hard to find people who know or don't laugh at what the Catholic Church in which they were baptized actually teaches. Do they find the faith in the resurrection of the body and Transubstantiation, or sacramental confession, the defense of celibacy, the condemnation of fornication, adultery, contraception and divorce less risible than Mormon eschatology? I really doubt it. Most important: who cares what others think if you are an American voter? They have enough polls tormenting them as it is without having to factor in alleged opinions of foreigners. Have foreigners given a look to their politicians lately? If you're an American voter, the rest of the world should better hope and pray you'll vote in ways that'll help save the world economy and keep enough nuclear carriers and subs efficient and deployed for another century! Because right now it doesn't seem a likely future scenario.

OK, full disclosure: I know quite a few Mormons, I have met and worked with some of them who were/are in leading positions in Utah and I think you will hardly find better allies in the battle for non-negotiable principles that matter to Catholics and all men of good will. Ask the California heroes of the referendum on prop 8. Yes, I do think that what they believe is way out there. However, I think that there are only two real problems with Romney's Mormonism election-wise:

1) the media are going to use it, especially those miserable hacks who play the race and discrimination of "minorities" and "diversity" cards 24/7 all year round. They'll use all the professional skills and instrumentalities that weren't used to shed light on the beliefs and proclaims of Rev. Wright's sect of marxist hatemongers. Or on his peculiar flock who can sit in those pews for 20 years without noticing anything strange and then run for office as the most normal of things.

2) the question is not that he is a Mormon, but whether he is Mormon just enough to stand firm and not to flip-flop without end on non-negotiable principles of natural law and civilization. What's the danger if he gets elected, that he'll create a Mormon militia and issue executive orders to impose Mormon views of the afterlife? I'd rather worry about whether he and the congressmen he'd would have to work with (again, IF elected) would be likely to do anything to abolish the tens of federal agencies and departments that need to be slashed mercilessly, to gut and sink Obamacare, to rein in judges and justices, protect life and marriage, cut taxes, drill for oil, strenghten defense and do all there is to do to start turning the ship around and sail to constitutional ports. Whatever his flaws though, a Romney cabinet would be unlikely to shred the Constitution and plain decency as systematically as the current administration. Does anybody honestly believes that he'll lead a vast Mormon conspiracy to take over the country? His Mormonism is a problem only because he's a Republican, although a GOP establishment one and not a conservative. Had he been a full-fledged liberal - which he used to be - and a democrat, his faith would have been ignored or even praised no matter if Mormon, Voodoo or Muslim Brotherhood-style Islam. Of all the many problems with a Romney administration, if people will take a minute and think about it rationally, they will see that religion is a non-issue with this particular candidate. That is, aside from electoral strategies since he'll have to convince voters. And that's what campaigns should be about no? But this is sliding into politics and I don't want to. I'll conclude by saying that should Romney become the GOP presidential candidate (he's got only 12 delegates so far with over 1000 to go), and should he lose to the incumbent president, Mormonism will not be the decisive factor, if a factor at all, of itself. Yes, it will be used against him. But he will actually win or lose on principles, liberty, economy and the Constitution and on how he will convince enough people that he's the guy they should passionately rally around. We'll see.

Do I have to explain what I think of Mormonism as a religion? I hope not. But I don't see why a good Mormon can't be a good President. I don't know if Romney is a good Mormon. For sure I don't know if he'd be a good president. For all we know he could turn out to be a good president even if he's a bad Mormon. As to the opinion of foreigners, that should be the least of a voter's worries, if a worry at all.

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FabrizioParty like it's 1773

No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist (Pius XI)

Fabrizio,

You pretty much echo my thoughts on Mormons and our election. I have know many Mormons through the years, and mostly I find them good people. Their beliefs are a bit "out there" but frankly I would trust as President a faithful Mormon, before I'd trust an unfaithful Catholic.

I don't care for Romney, he's too middle of the road for me. I like Santorum but he will not get the nomination, and if he did he likely couldn't be elected.

As far as how many wives a Mennonite has, I don't think that is anyone's business but theirs.

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Bob C

Do Mennonites practice polygamy? That is certainly news to me.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

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Bob C

Are we allowed to be "pro-choice" when it comes to defining marriage?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

What?

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Bob C

Never mind.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Fabrizio,



I happen to think it matters. I for one would be more than a little distressed to see the prestige of America so considerably diminished that it were to become an international laughing stock. I believe this would happen were a Mormon to be elected president.

Do you really believe Americans shouldn't care what foreigners think? Would you really like to see them become like the French? I think we should all care about how others see us. It matters.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

People said the same thing about Catholics when John Kennedy ran for President, but after he won the election, no one was laughing.

Flashing forward to the present, the international community laughed at the US for whole eight years, right up until the moment that Obama was elected. I truly doubt that anyone is going to laugh at this country because of Romney's religion, but if he makes an idiot of himself, they will most certainly laugh at him (and us) for that - it's not like the world forgot how to do that in only four short years, donchaknow.

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Cynthia Gee


".....and finally, I suggest you follow Jesus Christ rather than Rush Limbaugh. The former will lead you to heaven, the latter won't." ~~~~~~~~~~~anonymous

James,

What Cynthia said and then some. During the last US election we heard cries of "vote for Obama because he will bring back America's prestige in the world". Did he? Has America's prestige increased with Obama as president?

Cynthia is right, what you have been saying about Romney and his religion sounds very much like what was said about Kennedy and Catholicism. Considering the way the "elite" of the world feel about God, anyone professing to be a Christian (we can argue about whether Mormons are Christians in another thread), would be, as you put it, an international laughing stock.

I have not yet decided who I will support as president. What I can tell you is that I will not be influenced by the alleged views of the rest of the world. I am even less likely to be influenced by a cartoon on you tube. Come on James, surely you could do better than that. For the record, yes, I do know what Mormon's believe.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

I remember the first thing Obama did when he became President. He flew to Europe and made speeches apologizing for things America had done in the past. You could tell from the audience's faces that they were not impressed with this guy. They saw him as weak. Apparently, he wasn't invited to diplomats's homes. Nor have I heard he was invited back to Europe later. He laid an egg!

I'm voting for Romney because he looks Presidential. Yeah, I know that's a trivial reason to vote for somebody. I also agree somewhat with his Republican leanings. I couldn't write down a list of his policy proposals any more than for any of the other candidates. Who can do that except somebody who does nothing but follow political news?

Romney looks and speaks well. He seems in control of what he says. I don't think he'll make major mistakes.
Newt? Doesn't measure up.
Sanctorum, I can agree with as far as his Catholicism, but his presentation seems weak. I don't think he would be an influential President, and in Washington influence is everything. Everybody jumps on the bandwagon when somebody appears successful.

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Norman
...that is the regret of a lot of old people when they look back and realize too late what might have been.
This was what President Martin regretted. He thought he was doing something good. It was a disaster. How can anybody know what is the right thing to do?
-- Theresa

How is America's prestige measured anyway?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Effie,

Would you agree that Reagan restored American prestige after Carter?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

I'm sure he did. I'm also sure that if Regan were running today, there would be more than a few in the international community who would mock him because of his religious beliefs.

My problem with your posts has to do with the following comment that you made to Fabrizio:



Your entire problem with Romney has to do with his religious beliefs. As a Catholic, and as a citizen of a country which was founded on the promise of religious freedom, I found your comment to be appalling. The irony is that much of what you said sounds exactly like what was said about Kennedy being Catholic. By the way, did you know that Romney was the governor of one of the most Catholic states in the country?

Will Romney be attacked because he is a Mormon - yes. Should we vote for or against him because of what the international community may or may not think? No. During the McCain/Obama election there were more than a few voices - both in this country and in the international community - who told us to vote for Obama in order to restore American prestige.

While I do not agree with Romney's religious beliefs, I will defend his right to have them. Just as I am confident that - unlike the Obama administration - Romney will defend my right to have mine.

As for American prestige, please see David's last post.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

I am more concerned with how faithful a candidate is to his religion than to what his religion is. It appears that Romney is more faithful to the polls.

Romney Used Polls to Determine His 1994 Abortion Position

[url]...Before initiating his campaign against then-incumbent Senator Ted Kennedy, Romney informed the elders of his church about his decision to run as a supporter of abortion rights. In November 1993, Romney, Wirthlin, and Scott (all Mormons) presented their case to the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a courtesy. Romney, then a Mormon leader in his state, explained his would label himself personally opposed to abortion but would take no action to outlaw it, a view he later described as “effectively pro-choice.”

The meeting proved a contentious one. “I may not have burned bridges, but a few of them were singed and smoking,” Romney said of the exchange....[/url]

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

On the contrary, he made a lot of friends for the United States while on that trip to Europe, because he was the first President who was man enough to admit that sometimes America does wrong, just like anyone else, and he has been invited back to Europe time an time again as a result.

There's plenty NOT to like about Obama, but at least he's doesn't practice the "America Right-or-Wrong" idolatry that so many of our past presidents have.

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Cynthia Gee


".....and finally, I suggest you follow Jesus Christ rather than Rush Limbaugh. The former will lead you to heaven, the latter won't." ~~~~~~~~~~~anonymous

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Jeff Stevens

Effie,



"The Most Catholic Commonwealth of Massachusetts"? Come, now.

I'm not criticising Romney's beliefs, nor his inalienable right to hold them. By "American prestige" I meant the esteem in which the United States is held in the opinion of reasonable persons elsewhere.

It was not my intention to debate the merits or otherwise of Mormon beliefs. I simply wondered to what extent people were aware of them. More importantly, what really prompted this thread was that I wondered whether Americans were aware of (what I believe would be) the effect it would have on American prestige were a Mormon to be elected president. I wasn't trying to initiate a debate on that effect. From where I'm sitting it could hardly be less obvious.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

Here is my prediction. Any condemnation of his religious beliefs would end after the first major crisis. At that time all who agree with how he handled it will stop criticizing his religious beliefs and start singing his praises. Those who disagree will be so focused on condemning his response that they won't have time to condemn his religious beliefs.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

I think there's a lot of wisdom here, Effie.

Though depending on the crisis, they may tie his religion to his response, pro or con.

BTW, I find the argument that "They said that about Kennedy and his Catholicism" to be quite fallacious. It is similar to the argument that those who support homosexual "marriage" use; "Hey, those arguments were used about interracial marriage in the 1950's!". The misuse of an argument does not invalidate the argument.

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Jeff Stevens

Effie,



I think you're right... about the reaction in the US.

I'm not talking about in the US, I'm talking about the reaction throughout the rest of the West.

PS



I meant "could hardly be more obvious", obviously.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I heard that he changed his position on more than one issue but I cannot remember what they were.
I think people respect those who have convictions. Those who flip flop are not reliable because you do not know what else they will flip flop on once they are in power.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Well, of course Newt flipped from Protestant to Catholic.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

We shall give him a pass on that one since he went from "good" to "perfect"

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Flipping is good, but he better not flop.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

As a Catholic I am satisfied that Gindrich is repentant. As a Conservative Republican, I am concerned that he will be judged by most based on his past actions. I do not see that he can be elected.

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Bob C