Catholic Online Forum

The Penn State Scandal and Joe Paterno

Wonder what everyone thinks. As far as I can tell Paterno met his responsibilities, yet he seems to be under attack from all sides.

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Bob C

Bob,

If only university coaches and administrators were allowed to marry and women were allowed to be coaches and administrators and the university was not so intolerant of sex outside of marriage, this abuse would not have taken place and any coverup would not have happened... Wait a minute...

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I agree, Bob. From all I have read, Joe reported the incident to the AD.

But whatever the case, sadly, it will now be what JoePa is remembered for.

Joe Paterno Quits, Calls Sex Scandal One of 'Great Sorrows of My Life'

Sad...

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

I won't remember JoePa for this. He appears to have done the right thing with regard to reporting it. But sometimes leaders resign anyway in the wake of scandal, simply because it touches/taints them in some way, whether they were responsible for it or not. Joe is 84 and has far outlasted many coaches. He was near retirement anyway and perhaps this scandal pushed him into the retirement decision more readily.

I'll remember JoePa for the Penn State teams he fielded. I love their no-names on their jerseys, their plain coloration, and their unadorned helmets. Penn State spoke by the way they played the game. I hope the coach who replaces JoePa will continue in his footsteps.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I initially thought he did the right thing, but upon further reflection I changed my mind. If you are witness to a crime, you call the police. One of our most important societal responsibilities is protecting the young. He failed to do that in an adequate manner. Was he more responsible than the AD or others who didn't report this to the police? No. But he still should have.

If someone witnessed an adult having inappropriate contact with my daughter, I would expect them to call the cops.

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Stephen C
Boca Raton, FL

Edit to add - whether witnessed directly, or informed of the crime, you should go to the police. Apply this to any crime - murder, rape, theft...do you go to your boss or the police?

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Stephen C
Boca Raton, FL

Stephen,

As far as I know, hearsay isn't a cause to go directly to the police in the Church or in a company or government either. What if that hearsay is a lie? If you are witness directly to the act, that is one thing, but otherwise you go to your superiors.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Yeah, I sort of agree with that. ROFLOL

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Bob C

Actually the state police and prosecutor said that what Paterno did was legally correct. Remember he witnessed NOTHING what he reported is what one of his Graduate Assistants reported to him. He turned it over to his bosses then went about his normal business.

I'm sure that Penn State, like most large organizations, have internal directives on how to handle allegations like this also the University likely has their own police department. . According to my wife, the HR expert, she said that the person to normally contact the police would be the HR person once the investigation revealed a crime.

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Bob C

So, when JoePa went on recruiting visits, do you think he told the recruits' parents, "Hey -- Don't worry about your son. While he's at Penn State, I'll make sure I do everything that I'm legally obligated to do, to make sure he's safe"? Of course not! No one would take him up on that offer!

Here are the facts as presented by the grand jury: the grad assistant says that he witnessed abuse, and then went to Paterno's the next day. Paterno says that the report he passed along to the AD was "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature". The grad student later met with the AD and the VP; both of these say that he reported that there was "horsing around" going on, but the grad assistant says that he reported sexual abuse to them.

The AD and VP were indicted for perjury -- that is, lying under oath about what the grad assistant told them, in the judgment of the grand jury. Are we really saying that we think that the grad assistant told the AD and the VP what really happened, but told Paterno a different story? Or is it just that Paterno gets a free pass and the opportunity to finish out the season, while the AD and VP take the fall?

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Well, JoePa's gone and the president of Penn State as well!

Upheaval at Top for Penn State

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Well an indictment does not mean they are guilty. No one really knows who told who what. regardless Paterno saw nothing.

As far as finishing the season he was dismissed earlier today by the board of trustees, as was the University President. Sounds like they have a scorched earth policy.

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Bob C

Neither did the AD or VP, and yet...



It's a sad way to end a long career, but it's the appropriate action at this point.



Considering the crimes alleged and the extent of the putative cover-up, you think that they're wrong in canning all whom came in contact with the scandal and yet failed to do the right thing? ("The right thing", as opposed to "the legal minimum"...)

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

I agree sad way to end his career; but what in your opinion was the right thing? Go to the police with a maybe and start a media witch hunt?

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Bob C

And I disagree. Plug in murder.

Your trusted co-worker tells you that they saw your other trusted co-worker murder someone in the men's room. You report this to HR? To your boss? Not exclusively. The right thing to do is to call the police. You tell the police that it's 2nd hand. You tell them your source. You let them investigate.

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Stephen C
Boca Raton, FL

A simple thought experiment I just did.

Take it out of context.
You hear from someone you know
Them: "Hey, I just saw someone get raped"
You: "You what? Did you call the cops??"
Them: "No"
You: "...."
Them: "What?"
You: <haymaker>
You: Call 911. You don't call HR, you don't tell your boss, you call 911.

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Jeff Stevens

The grand jury found it credible that the grad assistant told them what really happened, despite their protestations that he just told them it was "horsing around". So... he told everyone except Paterno, who just happens to be the first person to whom he reported the situation?

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Stephen,




I agree, but then with murder you have a body, evidence etc. With this situation you have allegations nothing more, you use what ever reporting system is in place at that organization.

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Bob C

Again, what was the right thing? The university no doubt has some sort of system to report this stuff, did Paterno follow those procedures? He witnessed no crime, he had no duty IMO beyond doing what he did.

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Bob C

Folks, this is a Catholic Forum, lets look at this from that point.




We can't go making false accusations against people. At the point that Paterno was informed by the graduate assistant he had no idea whether this was true, gossip, or some sort of grudge being acted out. He reported the allegations to his bosses.

Now I'm not so naive as to think there wasn't some covering up going on here, I just don't think it was Paterno.

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Bob C

The person reporting the crime witnessed the crime with their own eyes. Thus, there is no concern over calumny; you heard it from an eyewitness to a violent crime. If that person did not call the police, you should call the police. You absolutely have reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed because you heard it from a first hand witness. The police can establish probable cause or not. Then a court can establish guilt or innocence. You're not screaming it to the world and damaging their reputation; you're reporting it to the police. It's not even a matter of public record until either a grand jury is convened or an arrest is made.

Sorry, you have to call the police if you don't know that they've already been called. It's a rape with an eyewitness.

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Jeff Stevens

Not a media witch hunt, but something. He had information, he passed it on, and then nothing happened for years? Shouldn't he at least have been hounding the president/provost's office to find out if anything had been done? By 2002 he knew that whatever had happened had happened more than once and was likely still happening. What will the victims since 2002 deserve? As far as I can tell, he's in a position very similar to the one Cardinal Law was in eight and ten years ago.

Last night, I was left wondering what else is going to come out. However, even if nothing else does, Penn State had to fire the people they fired, if only to prove something when the lawsuits start.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

As a Catholic having lived through our scandal all this sounds painfully familiar. What I do find interesting is the demand that some higher "moral" standard should be applied over and above the legal requirements, too bad that hue and cry doesn't exist in the media over the Church position on abortion.

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BobA

Jeff,

(If you see this on the High Seas)



The report I saw was that he told Paterno that he saw the former coach showering with a young boy, nothing was mentioned about Rape. Now he is claiming he witnessed rape.

Frankly I have no idea what is the truth of what was said, the reports are so varied as to be mud.

So, If rape was reported to Paterno then yes I agree, if no rape was reported then I think that Paterno did the right thing.

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Bob C

Actually that is why I started this thread, the close parallels

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Bob C

Riots at Penn State, supposedly in support of the coach (although some people will use any excuse to riot), over the firing of the coach amid allegations he didn't do enough to report or prevent the abuse.

Loud calls for the heads of bishops over allegations they didn't do enough to report or prevent abuse.

I hope that there aren't the same people in both camps. One would have to wonder about whether they are examples of split-brain personality.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I have now found a web sites comments that claim the reason that Paterno didn't report the abuse is that he is Catholic and that is what can be expected from Catholics.

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Bob C

Oh, gross.

But I have to wonder, if he's Catholic, how he could have missed noticing what was happening right then in 2002 and how he could have chosen to make the same choice that was so obviously wrong when other people made it. The whole time the major stories were coming from Boston and elsewhere, I was thinking, boy, if I saw something or otherwise had knowledge about something, I'd have to do more than those bishops did.

At the very least, he should have been hounding the authorities to find out what was being done.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Not unexpected. There are so many vicious people out there, especially when anonymity can be maintained.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Is it not true the Paterno was told of rape? Maybe we dont know now what he was told. If rape was told to him he did make a mistake. In my mind, in that case, he should be fired! He and those scared by this will live with the decision to address the issue within the organization versus resolve a problem.

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BobB

Fiat voluntas tua

Folks, you need to read the grand jury report. It is all in there, very clear, very explicit, and very horrifying. The assistant goes into graphic detail of what Coach Sandusky was doing to the 10 year old boy. He could actually hear the sound effects of the rape even before he was in full view of the showers. The assistant was so shaken that he ran to his office and holed up there, then got on the phone with his dad, who told him to go to Coach Paterno.

Paterno verifies that he met with the assistant, who was visibly shaken and very descriptive, as a 28 year old man should be who has just seen a 10 year old boy get raped in front of his eyes. What Coach Paterno is very contrite about now, as he said, "I should have done more," is that he knew exactly what happened, but then went to the athletic director and Penn State administrator instead of going to the police.

The director and administrator say that Paterno did not give them all the gory details, and so all they did was tell Coach Sandusky that he couldn't bring boys any more to the locker room and the showers. No one even bothered to get ahold of the boy's parents, find out who he was, and see if he maybe needed medical attention, besides other kinds of post-trauma care. If Paterno had put his foot down, and he had the authority and stature to do it at Penn State, Coach Sandusky would not have gone on to repeatedly rape boys.

You see, Coach Sandusky had founded an after-school sports program for poor and at risk boys. Through this program, he had access to hundreds of boys (cited in the grand jury report). He had been seen with other boys in unusual situations, "wrestling" with them in school gymns, by himself after hours, and being caught by other coaches and adults. But since it was Coach Sandusky, no one felt confident to speak up. Sandusky was practically a saint, with all the time and money he put into his boys who needed him.

These events happend within the last 10 years, well past the time when Penn State, Paterno, and others should have known better, and after the Catholic Church had become embroiled in its own problems and raised the issue of the protection of minors and safe environments. So far, there are eight verified victims, but since we are dealing with a serial predator here, and very protected cover up, the number might increase.

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

Father thank you. Again, Paterno should have been fired! We should pray for the victims and for Joe who
made a big mistake!

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BobB

Fiat voluntas tua

Dean, this is so true. People never learn. Sexual abuse of minors is not a Catholic or church problem. It is a national blight which happens in every institution and in every kind of home.

I am baffled, nonetheless, that men who were married with children, and grandchildren, stood by and covered up these things. It almost seems as if they were thinking, "Hey, if it's my flesh and blood, I will protect them to the death. But those aren't my boys, are they? It's someone else's flesh and blood. Too bad if they get hurt, but I gotta think of my own." I thank God that, after our Catholic scandals, and the safe environment training that goes on everywhere, the Catholic Church pretty much smacks that attitude out of you and gets you thinking, "Kids are kids, and regardless of whose flesh and blood they are, we all have to watch out for them. And I better not see you hurt one of them, because regardless of whether I have to legally report it, I will positively go to the authorities if I know you hurt a kid."

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

So how does one watch a boy get raped and 1) do nothing at the time to stop it and 2) not call the police themselves?

Where is the grad assistant in all this as to his complicity and cover up? I realize he told Paterno but Paterno told his superiors..the grad assistant told his superior (Paterno), it seems to me they are all guilty of the same refusal to protect innocent children.

In some ways, the grad assistant's behavior is far more baffling to me than anybody else involved in this case....he heard it, saw it and did nothing but tell Paterno and go on with his life knowing that nothing was being done.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Indeed. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. And what also has me flabbergasted is that even when people find out the gory details, they still ask, "So why is everyone getting so worked up? This is SO unfair to Penn State, Coach Paterno, and football!"

I'm getting a sad deja vu. Do you remember how our church brethren responded to these reports at one time?

1) this was a long time ago, and it is easy to judge what other people should have done.
2) you seem to be forgetting all the wonderful things that x,y,z accomplished while working for ...(church, Penn State, etc.)
3) those involved fulfilled their legal obligations. They were not legally required to go to the police.
4) let's not be harsh in judging those who didn't intervene for the kids. They had to protect their workers' reputation.
5) the young boy who was violated was already 10. It's not like he couldn't do something to fend for himself.

I guess the outrage of Penn State students has got the victims' lawyers saying that the university acted too rashly, and the victims were upset at how others will see them, realizing they are the reason that Paterno was terminated. I can't wrap my head around that either. You would think the victims' lawyers would be happy that Penn State is moving to rectify the injustice.

A priest who has counseled many victims told me that with any group that exposes child molestation in their midst, it is normal to have these phases of denial, or irrational defense of the institution, or need to believe the perpetrators no matter what, and finally, a strong aversion to facing what the victims have gone through, such as a need to ignore or downplay their trauma.

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

One thing I see missing from the coverage:

---this is yet another homosexual sex scandal involving a homosexual sex predator.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

People are threatening Coach McQueary's life.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Fr. Angel,



It is the same way with families and abused children or even children who are not abused by direct family members but perhaps by someone the family knows. When I was in a group therapy situation for victims of childhood sexual abuse, most of those who were the victims of incest ( I was not) were either acutely aware of the "damage" they might do to the equilibrium of the family if they told or they told their mothers (no one in the groups were abused by their mothers sexually though I do know someone that happened to) and their mothers flat out told them not to tell because then they would be " responsible" for the family being poor or daddy going to jail, etc, if anyone outside the family knew.

Don't rock the boat is the message they get...aside from the threats from the abuser of course.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

I realize I am late to this thread but here is what I think.

I have been a Joe Paterno fan going back to the John Cappelletti days. He now disgusts me to look at him. Spineless. I do not feel one bit of sorry for him. That "shook up" grad student went to him and he should have took that 28 YEAR OLD MAN to the police and told him to tell the police exactly what he saw.

As for the 28 YEAR OLD MAN. Coward. I can guarantee you if I had seen that, I would have run that man down with a truck. There would be no shook up, no what should I do, nothing. There is not a job in the world worth protecting, over something so vile.

And dont tell me I wouldnt have. I have followed a man out to his car and written down his license when I heard him threaten his 8 year old son with the beating of his life when he got home from the store. I let him know he was being watched and I called a friend at the police station and he did a slow drive by for me.

"I should have done more". Oh shut up. You make me sick.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

2 Things.

1) A 28 year old man should have known what to do.

and 2) Pennsylvania State Law REQUIRES that the abuse be reported to the Head of the educational institution.

I'm sure that the law will be changed forthwith but it came out in a news report over the weekend that was the law.

I still think Jo Pa is a scape goat in all of this.

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Bob C

No kidding. That is why I capitalized it. Good grief. Coward. BUT he did got to Paterno and at that point it became Paternos problem as well. If he had told Paterno "You wouldnt believe what just happened to your grandson in the shower" He would have shot first and asked questions later.


SO?? Report it. Right after the police are called.


Hogwash. Heads should be rolling all over the place and his should definitely be one of the them. He is lucky if you ask me. Given his health, he has time to beg for forgiveness from the victim and from God. I wouldnt to die and have to try and explain that one away at the Pearly Gates.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

the things i've heard recently are that we don't know the entirety of the story, just the parts that the grand jury considered salient to the question of whether those in authority at PSU acted criminally or not.

rumor has it that there's more to what the grad assistant did that night -- his story hasn't come out yet, and may serve to help clear his name somewhat.

so, a bit of patience might be in order, for the sake of getting the whole story, and getting it correctly. since there's criminal (and likely civil) cases pending, that disclosure might take a bit of time...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Larry,



I have heard three different stories as to what he had seen.

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Bob C

Mark Shea has a different perspective on why "more wasn't done" when this pervert was caught in the act. It's worth reading in its entirety. We all like to believe we would beat the stuffing out of the pervert and turn him in to police. I certainly do. But...take a look at:

Betrayal and the Power of Relationship

Also, as we have seen with Corapi, it is perilous to leap to the defense or the lynching of a party before all the facts are known.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

It was a good article, and to answer his question there is not a doubt in my mind that I would stop the act of rape by what ever force was necessary and call the police immediately.

But then I don't fit any of his categories.

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Bob C

Would I actually run him down with a truck? Probably not. I can definitely say, without hesitation, I would have screamed at that idiot and I would have tended to the young boy. I would have told him to get dressed and I would have taken him to a safe place. Admittedly, at that point, I would be in a dither about what a safe place is. Do I take him to an office? The police station? A hospital? His mothers? I would have to pray for some serious guidance at that point. My guess is, I would have taken him to a hospital, while I called his mother or guardian, assuring him the whole time that it was not his fault and he was not in trouble.

I have never been in a situation so vile, but I had the unfortunate experience of being one of two roommates in my college dorm when a roommate walked in sobbing she had been raped on the way home from class. Believe it or not, I was the only sane one that was able to keep my wits about me. I had to breathe deep and fight the urge to grab a softball bat but I was able to handle it in a way that was appropriate for the victim and in a way that helped the police. (I had to hold on to her while she fought to get in the shower)

I have only had one career in my whole life when I was in my young 20's. I was a stock broker and I can honestly say that I would never think of my job before a young, little boy. Maybe its a woman thing. (and no, I am not trying to say men dont care) Maybe I didnt care about my job enough. I dont know. Maybe its just the way I handle things. I have no problem barging in where I am not wanted.

The bottom line is. They all sicken me.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

And you know what else? If I was Joe Paternos wife, my respect for him, as a God fearing, loving, decent husband would have taken a huge nosedive. He would never be the same in my eyes.

There are certain things you expect out of your husband. At the very least, you expect them to be God fearing and decent human beings with a solid sense of right and wrong. If I found out years later, that my husband had been told the grisly details that Joe had been told and found out that he reported it to boss and then went on about his daily life thinking he had done his part and was absolved of any further need to be involved (even when he noticed nothing was being done) , a quick kiss on my lips from him would leave a foul taste in my mouth.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

Bob, right. But what if you were in one of his categories? That is the point. What if you had a relationship with the pervert that was as close to or closer than that of a brother? For a woman, what if this person was your spouse (or your son) and you walked in on him? How many spouses are enablers of their husbands or wives or children's addictions? How many would cover for their spouse's or child's criminal behavior, and have covered for them, because of the relationship they have?

To everyone,

If you discovered your son or daughter had done something like this, would you have seen to it that the police were called, or would you undertake some of the rationalizations that Mr. Shea brings up and try to kick the problem upstairs or explain it away?

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Elizabeth, I feel like you do, but who's to say he didn't discuss (what he thought) were his options, with his wife, when it happend.

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BobB

Fiat voluntas tua

You know what?........Truthfully, I didnt even consider that option. I guess I assumed that if she knew, the police would know. I would think that being a woman with children and grand children and away from the situation with a little bit clearer eyes, she would have been able to use her own distance from the situation for clarity and talk sense into her husband.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"