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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2010 11:57 
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Two devout Catholics, two good friends, a former pupil and teacher, two experts in their particular fields, both of whom I have a high regard for, debate on a subject that is of particular concern to the Church today.

Robert Spencer is the founder of Jihad Watch and a critic of Islamic extremism and Peter Kreeft is a well-known Catholic apologist. I think this debate is important and timely, and the two-hour video is hosted by Patrick Madrid's blog. I've listened to it partway and will continue tomorrow and hope you find the time to do so, too.

But a report of the debate to give you an idea what transpired is carried by Zenit.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2010 12:20 
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Hi Ian,

While a militant Islam can atttack the expressions of our faith and its cultural manifestations, secularism attacks the very roots of our faith by fostering life without God. Jesus warned us against "the world" :

If the world hates you, know that it hated me before it hated you (...) but because you are not of the world (...) the world hates you. John 15,18ff

Robert

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Ma mission [est] de faire aimer le bon Dieu comme je l'aime. (Sainte Thérèse de l'Enfant-Jésus) My mission is to have God loved as I love Him.


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2010 15:12 
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Well, secularism has led to low birth rates which have made Islam more threatening just in sheer numbers. I have to wonder if the Vatican will be here in fifty years given the demographic realities of Europe.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2010 16:13 
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robdick wrote:
While a militant Islam can atttack the expressions of our faith and its cultural manifestations, secularism attacks the very roots of our faith by fostering life without God. Jesus warned us against "the world" :

If the world hates you, know that it hated me before it hated you (...) but because you are not of the world (...) the world hates you. John 15,18ff

Robert,

Was there secularism in Jesus' time? I thought it was something that came along with the Enlightenment.

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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2010 11:08 
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Thanks, Robert, for your input. Have you been able to view the video? I wasn't able to finish it, what with this busy week.

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PostPosted: 26 Dec 2010 12:54 
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Hi David,

The word "secularism" is of recent vintage, but the idea is very old. However, we could say that it took strong roots during the 19th century when it became fashionable to support the belief that science was the answer to all our problems.

Robert

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2011 08:49 
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Here are my pre-video thoughts: I think Islam is a greater long term threat. Set aside for a moment the short term threats of violence--Christianity can withstand those. The real threat to Christianity is the alarming long term growth rate of Islam. I don't believe secularlism is growing or will grow as quickly, since it does not provide the types of answers people are looking for long term, and it cannot provide a long term basis for a stable society.

A related point: If we focus the issue on Cathoicism (as opposed to the more general Christianity), we need to remember that we Catholics face threats from other Christians. Protestant religions are targeting Catholics: A lot of protestant "mission" activity is ongoing in Latin America to save the Catholics from themselves.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2011 12:34 
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Ian,

Have not watched the Video; but my response would be the bigger threat is Secularism (or apathy if you prefer), by being apathetic over our faith we cannot defend it.

Therefore by not being able to properly defend out faith then Islam does become a major threat.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2011 12:40 
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I tend to agree with Bob.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2011 14:32 
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OFF TOPIC? I don't really think so. But please ignore at your pleasure :wink:

I don't know if it's true or not. But I have heard that they teach bank tellers to distinguish counterfeit by having them study real money bills.

Could it be that the greater danger is not one of the two given options but instead lack of knowledge of the real living Jesus and the real Catholic Church?

I was surprised to find out that even after many years, I did not have a good understanding of the most fundamental errors of Luther and Calvin until having read a talk/essay by Fr. Hardon on Lutheranism (Luther also believing in Total depravity of man, like the TULIP Calvinists) and until having read the CCC section on 'actual' and 'habitual' grace.

Then I was further surprised to find out that the Church apparently hardly bothered to make much of a distinction between 'actual' and 'habitual' grace until the Council of Trent. Now I don't think that I am so naive to believe that every Catholic needs to study all the heresies in the world to be protected. Somehow it seems plausible to me that if a Catholic is properly Catechized AND has a nourishing diet of devotions (sacrements and prayers, etc.) then in most cases his "sensus fidei" should protect him from the majority of tricks of the devil. People are going to keep reinventing old heresies with new names and with different combinations and permutations of old concepts to lead us into the "brave new world" or some new kind of "crazy wisdom" (e.g. 'word of faith', 'prosperity', 'new age', counterfeit revival, LGAT's, abrogation [talk about 'crazy wisdom'] and sharia, etc.)

Now obviously I don't fault the Catholic Church for not emphasizing a helpful concept such as 'habitual' grace much until Trent. Truth is One, but heresies are potentially almost endless. Those priests who did still have an undebilitated 'sensus fidei' would not have needed to have such a vocabulary including the word 'habitual' grace, to have resisted confusion and infection.

But I happened to learn from Fr. Blankenhorn's article and lectures on St. Dominic that Dominic was a cathedral canon (priest) in a fellowship of such priests at the cathedral and that such priests at that time were among the relatively few in those days who had the time and training to become well founded in Catholic theology AND that most Catholic theology (i.e. for canons) at that time was Catholic bible study. Furthermore, in terms of formation, as a fellowship of priests they chanted the Divine Office. Thus St. Dominic (esp.) and also his fellow canons were well prepared in catechism/theology and in devotion (Divine Office) to fight the Albigensian heresy when the terrible apostasy and destruction caused by this cult came to his attention on his journey to Denmark, I think.

I'm old enough now that I don't blindly trust my body to absorb all the punishment of junk food I gave it in the past. Having reduced my intake of junk food, I find that I don't crave it as much as I used to, so it doesn't really taste that wonderful. I hope that I will also be able to increase my appreciation of healthy simple plain food. I hope that I will do the same with my spiritual diet so that my "sensus fidei" will be healthy enough to detect 'spiritual junk food'.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2011 14:54 
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JMJ

Bob, I agree with 100% and history confirms that we have resisted Islamic attempts to destroy us over 12 centuries and we came close to a definitve defeat only during the peaks of crises and/or decadence (e.g. the agony of the Eastern Roman Empire, the rise of Protestantism, divisions between absolutist/nationalist European monarchs).

They have a chance to prevail today because we are rotten to the core and secularists are their best allies in that they share the same hatred for what's left of good in former Christian nations. Too many among us have nothing they consider worth defending at any cost and we have been "educated" to despise ourselves and feel guilty before other cultures. We are contracepting, aborting, de-industrializing, indoctrinating ourselves into impotence and extintion. Our life is regulated and paralyzed by nonsensical superstitions that are given the force of the law, and the cultures we strive to revere and accomodate despise us for that and are reinforced in their determination they demand that we keep committing suicide sooner than "offend" them in any way.

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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2011 11:28 
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In light of recent events I find myself wondering, which is preferable - a secular government or a non-Christian religious government?

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