Catholic Online Forum

actually I have been told there is an entry for paying taxes on income that you choose not to tell how you got it--so that drug dealers can avoid being gotten for tax evasion!

Thus illegal activities can pay taxes.

_________________
K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

I've never seen it, and I always do my own taxes. Maybe there is a special illegal income form. Schedule XXX?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

My quote was from Karl Marx -I think it was used frequently during the "change we can believe in" revolution that liberated the Russian people from their capitalist oppressors and ushered in the golden age of social justice...

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Jeff,

As you know there's rather a lot to choose from.



http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... 23_en.html

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Daniel,

At no stage before the Russian Revolution was Russia ever a capitalist society. The changes that occurred in 1917 were contrary to Marxist doctrine (the need to go through a capitalist phase before communism).

In any case, if you want to talk about socialism why mention Marx? When was the last time you met a Marxist?

Yet again, I can't help noticing that you seem to have an unseemly taste for strawman arguments.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I am nearly certain that it does not exist. If it does, I suspect it's a trap; enter any income on there, and you'll instantly be audited.

Like David, I too do my own taxes, and have for the last 20 years. I also did my father's taxes and my mother's. At no time have I seen anything like it.

And yes, all of us file a full Schedule A form with itemized deductions. Our taxes are not simple 1040EZ's.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

When was the last time he was on TV, oh the BBQ at the Whitehouse.

_________________
Bob C

I remember before the election many people here on COL got mighty upset when that label was thrown around concerning the same character at the BBQ. When did you discover the truth?

_________________
Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

When was Groucho at a White House BBQ? During the Nixon adminstration?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Hi Dave,

I once quoted Groucho in an article which appeared in print. Next thing I knew a self-proclaimed Atheist showed up at my door to remind me that Groucho was also an Atheist. This guy was trying to make a statement which I felt was so inane as not worth the trouble to inform me. Julius Marx (Groucho) was brought up Jewish. How this guy made the leap to his adopted atheism is beyond me.

_________________
Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Wake up Seamus and smell the decay of our constitution! If you need reasons for the analogy I can make a list!

_________________
Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

When he was nominated, or sometime before that.

_________________
Bob C

In Catholic thought, I'd say the legitimate purpose of taxes is to help serve the common good.



I suppose it could be argued the common good can be served by discouraging certain behavior and at times tolerating certain behavior.

_________________
Michael D.
------------

The mercy of Christ is not a cheap grace; it does not presume a trivialization of evil.
Pope Benedict XVI

Schultzz,

There are a few things about the American Constitution I don't much like. But then I don't have to - I'm not American. But I think describing the American Constitution as being in a state of "decay" is perhaps a little excessive.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

A few thoughts and observations on points that have come up for consideration in this thread...



The hypothetical case that was advanced was a city considering taxing marijuana. As someone observed later on, only legal trade can be taxed. The only legal trade in marijuana is medicinal purposes (and only in some places). If the only taxable trade is the "legitimate" use marijuana (not the sinful use), how could one apply a sin tax?



Well, yeah... What led to Capone's downfall was the incongruity of him not having declared income when it was demonstrable that he had income. I don't remember the true details as opposed to the movie, can't remember what he actually went to prison for - tax evasion or the criminal acts that got him his ill-gotten gains.



I would say taxation is legitimate when it funds a legitimate action of government? As to what is actually a legitimate action of government, that's a little trickier.

I can see a certain amount of protectionism in trade.

I can also see a certain amount of extra taxation if a clear, explicit, strong case can be made that links a certain sector of the economy with certain extra costs to the state.

I'll throw out a question in reply. Are luxury taxes sinful?

_________________
Rob

At least now you admit, although not implicitly that we do argue. Myself against socialism with discussion of reality -you with irrelevant academic discussion and a critique of word usage and terminology...

Does it really matter what you think as it regards to my freedom? Short answer -no!

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,

Since you have said several time that you do not care what others think (especially when they disagree with you), I wonder why you engage in these discussions?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Rob, that case is not hypothetical. The city of Long Bearch is indeed considering such a tax. I think Fabrizio would tell you that there is no "legitimate" (i.e, not sinful) use of Mary Jane, regardless of what the law says. Also, anyone in California can tell you that a large part of the "medical" pot market is not legitimately medicinal. And there is a proposition (voter initiative) on the November ballot to legalize all marijuana.


It was for tax evasion.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I'm with you Val. I used to struggle with this one because I thought it would be good to do anything to try to limit tobacco use and other sins. But really, if something is legal, it shouldn't be taxed as a punishment. Doing so gives the government too much control over our lives.

_________________
Ted R

Discussion: consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate...

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,

Your discussion is informed? Never mind.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

As long as those who contract diseases and suffer other consequences as a result of their risky behavior don't come looking for collective solutions for their difficulties, then, sure, I'm all for no sin taxes. If we're worried about too much government control over risky behavior, then should we also not worry about too much government buffering of the consequences?

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

It is not approved by the central planning committee BUT I like it...

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

James,

Most of us like it quite well, simply put, it works. I agree that it is not in Decay, but under constant attack from witin and without is I think a reasonable statement.

_________________
Bob C

Perhaps both of you may be correct. I am concerned that the American Constitution has been ignored and stepped on in a careless manner and that behavior continues. I hope it is not dead. I agree with the viewpoint of Obama being a Marxist and can make a list if others are too blind to see it too. James, I know you are not an American and I have great respect for most Austrailians. I am not sure what news source you listen to but if you were an American you might tend to agree more with some of Obama's critics.

_________________
Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Maybe taxing ill-gotten gains is as sinful as the acts themselves as nobodty should profit in the earthly sense from evil acts
However can it not be said that a different kind of syb=ntax can be levied on misusers of the English language.

_________________
John Joyce

Dean,




That's the theory but is that really where the money goes? It seems like there is less and less money for gov healthcare, not more since these taxes were imposed. And how much of the burden is really on gov? Seems likely that since most Americans are insured that this is really more a burden on the private sector which is why some companies won't hire smokers because their health insurance goes up the more smokers on the roll.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,

The issue you raise is a different one -- one of government largesse and an unwillingness by members of government to be good stewards of the tax monies we entrust to them, vs. whether government, which is how a society regulates itself, should be in the business of influencing people's "private" behaviors. Those behaviors aren't so private when they cause medical insurance costs to rise for everyone (tobacco use, alcoholism, drug abuse, disuse of motorcycle helmets, etc.) or families to break up and disease to spread (prostitution).

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

That seems a tobaccophobic and hate filled message.

What about those that were born that way.



The same could be said about male homosexual sex -yet it would seem to be a sacred cow of the left now being 'pushed' as normal in schools with acceptance and inclusion in the military a goal of Mr. Obama...

A government that can control behavior can essentially limit freedom and promote what it chooses to impose upon its citizens.

Loss of individual liberty at the hands of a mob is no more a loss than is loss of individual liberty at the hands of a bureaucrat with a research report and teleprompter...

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Schultzz,

I can assure you I'm no fan of your President.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Bob,

As it happens I believe there's a lot wrong with the Australian Constitution, but it works (sort of).

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

That sounds akin to the English approach of muddling through.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I would say your country is on the right track.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I just heard about this 1999 study on the economic impact of smoking in the Czech Republic. Apparently the Czechs were considering raising the cigarette tax. The conclusion was that after considering all factors, at the current tax rate there was a net economic benefit to the Czech government from smoking.


That would be something like $140 million US.

The study was funded by Phillp Morris.

http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/Philip-Morris-Czech-Study.htm


http://www.mindfully.org/Health/Tobacco-Helps-Economy.htm

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Oh, I read that years ago for the US...I should have thought of it.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

David,

There are, of course, those who will rubbish the study simply because of who commissioned it. The very same people who would otherwise express their abhorrence for argumentum ad hominem (sigh).

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

Sometimes you surprise me. Can you demonstrate this "the very same people..." assertion?

Would an attack on a tobacco company be considered ad hominem?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I'm not going to outright disagree with that study, because I see the point, but I have two thoughts on it.

1. How does that compare to a country like the US, where people are so often kept living for years after they've been diagnosed with smoking-related illnesses?

2. I think we see similar arguments in favor of abortion on an almost daily basis, so I'm inclined to discount it. Do we really want to be glad that people are unneccessarily cutting their lives short? On the other hand, does this mean we shouldn't bring money into the equation at all? Since I, the taxpayer, am expected to foot the bill for #1, because most people with smoking-related illnesses are old enough or disabled enough to be on some form of medicare, the money is very important to me.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/backg ... /86599.stm

BBC reports back in 1998 smoking cost the NHS somewhere between 610 million and 1.7 billion pounds each year in the treatment of preventable illness caused by smoking, while to offset these costs, tobacco taxes collected were 8.9 billion pounds per year.

Newer studies, like one done at MIT, account for other economic factors such as lost productivity and the impact on the family, lower wages, etc., from smoking and calculate a high cost to the individual, however quantifying these loses alone and not alongside other factors (such as obesity, stupidity and or ignorance, leaving children to be raised by daycare facilities and the absence of the mother from the home, premarital sex, sexual promiscuity and STD's, adultery, divorce, drug abuse, voting for morons and or evil, etc.) which also contribute to similar costs to individuals and society I think inflate the overall economic cost in the perception of the reader of this one activity.

Each of us contributes to and takes from society in different ways - some producing a quantifiable net gain to society, some producing a net loss - in economic terms. Working this out is rather difficult to tabulate, however I would say it seems reasonable to me for civil society to identify those behaviors which habitually or necessarily take from society the most, and restricting or limiting their impact or imposing a fee to undertake such activities - whether or not they are sinful, in and of themselves. And though I also would agree with the imposition of taxes on cigarettes, I think there are many other negative behaviors which produce much more severe, negative economic results. I would also assert in this area, as in the case of the NHS above, it is on the one hand appropriate for government to seek to negate the impact of a particular behavior upon the cost of government, but it should not be a revenue stream well over and above the actual cost to government. To levy 9 billion pounds in taxes to cover a 1.7 billion pound overall expense is, in my view, excessive.

Pax et bonum

_________________
-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

Obviously the US would be somewhat different.


I don't think the study is saying any of that. The main conclusion I would draw is that anti-smoking arguments based on the cost to taxpayers are one-sided and flawed (at least for Czechs, possibly for us too).

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,



I wasn't talking about an attack on the tobacco company, but an attack on the study because of who funded it instead of because of its findings. Yes, that's an ad hominem.



Quite.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

It does not seem unreasonable to consider who funded a study in deciding if there may be an ulterior motive or hidden agenda. It is also not unreasonable to think that the source of funds might influence the outcome of the study. That is not a certainty, but certainly a possiblilty to be considered.


Although I'm sure that Phillip Morris would like governments to conclude that it is in their economic interest to encourage, or at least not discourage, smoking.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

No, it not entirely unreasonable to question the motives of others. But I think it would be better to let the study stand or fall on its own objective merits.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)