Catholic Online Forum

Your right to extend your arm ends where my nose begins.

Does your right to freedom of speech end where racism begins?



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-19/c ... ch/4528388

Wilders was due to speak in Perth. It's had to be cancelled as a venue can't be found.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

No. The government is in no position to evaluate which political and social positions are acceptable and which are not.

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

The government has already determined that a statement such as "Every Australian citizen has a civic duty to kill at least one Moslem during their lifetime" is not acceptable. A statement such as "Large-scale immigration by Muslims threatens the fabric of Australian life", though manifestly false, is acceptable. There needs to be a line somewhere between the two. Determining exactly where isn't easy.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The former is not a political question; it is a statement that can reasonably be expected to lead to direct harm, not unlike the American example of yelling fire in a crowded movie theater, or the well-known crime of incitement to riot.

The reasonable person standard is fine for evaluating these matters. If a reasonable expectation exists that the statement will lead directly to direct harm of another, it can be abridged.

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

Physical harm is one thing. What about other sorts of harm? Loss of employment prospects? Loss of opportunity in the provision of accommodation? In the provision of goods and services?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Are you referring to hiring or renting or selling to those of other races?

Those aren't matters of speech.

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,



If I were to ask others to do so, it would be a matter of speech. Likewise if I were to urge upon governments that such policies be adopted as law.

Titus Oates knew a thing or two about the abuse of free speech,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popish_Plot

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The protestors that took tickets from guests should have been arrested for assault.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

The Islamic culture is a threat to freedom and as such Muslims that promote Islam are as well a threat.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Let me add that Muslims comprise all races.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

What about right wing neo Nazi parties in Europe?

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Simon

A little background on the Q Society



I had thought it was named after the mischievous, demonic character in Star Trek:The Next Generation.



Laws against praying. Charming.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Society_of_Australia

Little wonder the Q Society holds its meetings in secret locations. The Q Society certainly seem to be pushing the boundaries of free speech.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Apparently, even the Liberal Party don't approve of Wilders.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-20/a ... am/4529514

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

No, but Wilders' usual talk is not "racism"; he raises legitimate concerns about the spread of Muslim fundamentalism in the West.
The people who want to bully him into silence by calling him a racist are similar to those who would bully Christians into silence by calling them homophobes when they speak about the evils of homosexual acts and "homosexual marriage."

Organised by Students for Palestine. A similar Palestinian student group prevented an Israeli ambassador from giving a speech at a California university. Another Palestinian group prevented the BBC Proms from being broadcast because they didn't like the fact that it was the Israel Philharmonic. Now that racist, if you ask me.


It may just be a matter of numbers and time. Amsterdam is 20% Muslim and has no-go areas and serious problems with a parallel society which does not wish to assimilate.
Agree.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Nazi is left wing from my American perspective as far as a political spectrum premised upon amount of government control upon individuals -Nazi is as well very similar to Islam -really you imply a distinction without much difference. Islam and Nazi were allies. Aryan and Iran do not just sound like similar names.

Regardless, acknowledging the difference between citizens and potential immigrants I would say that many countries save pre 1945 Germany and its allies would not want to see a large influx of Nazi immigrants.

Britain among other countries made such a position clear when they resisted the great Nazi migration during World War II.

Enemies are enemies for a reason whether or not they actually declare war or simply wage a cultural war it is the differences that are the problem when such differences conflict with fundamental principles that premise among other things liberty.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,



Would you please elaborate, especially the final paragraph

Peter

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"Lord to whom shall I go? Thou hast the words of eternal life"

James:

In the experience of free speech here in the U.S., all attempts by the government to repress ideas expressed in speech, however repulsive, just drives them underground and gives them a mystique.

It also hardens people in the debates needed for a healthy democracy. "That is unacceptable!" is another way of saying, "You are making me think too hard in responding to you and therefore I would rather that the government silences you."

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

Father,

In Europe and in Australia there have been riots prompted by anti-Islamic hate-speech. The utterers of calumny then point to the rioters and say "See, this is the violence you get when you allow Moslems to live among us".

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

So then, is all that is needed is a good riot and the government is then justified in shutting down any such speech? I can think of a whole bunch of left-wing causes in particular that would be aided and abetted by well-placed riots to silence critics of certain left-wing causes. Perhaps the focus should be on the rioters instead.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

Not at all. I'm simply saying that a Reichstag burning doesn't justify persecution of the imaginary culprits.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Elaborate? Maybe if you ask some questions I can attempt to answer them rather than assume my elaboration is 'on target'?

As far as the final paragraph -it was somewhat tongue and cheek. In essence, I was attempting to point out what seems not too obvious to some. THAT IS that when there is a corrupt ideology; e.g. socialism, communism, nazism, islamicism; it must be resisted and defended against WHETHER it is imposed quickly through conquest or imposed slowly by assimilation.

Immigrants should be assimilated into western culture where freedom is NOT dependent upon religious affiliation. In Islam this is not the case. Regarding assimilation -it takes time and resources; as such, there is a limit on how many and as well which islamicists can or should be taken in at one time. Just discrimination is legitimate when it comes to immigration where in some cases there should be no allowed entry while in other cases entry should be limited -there is nothing racist about such policies.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Then why do you assist those who persecute them? The supposed hateful racist bigoted speakers should not be persecuted no matter how many "Reichstag burning" events are staged by leftist groups or trumpeted by leftist mass media mouth pieces.

President Obama blamed the video for Benghazi -he fooled no one. The people who killed the US Ambassador were not the victims either.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

All,

Treating all Moslems as though they were terrorists is manifestly unjust. It is also unwise politically - if you keep treating people as though they were terrorists, at least some of them will become terrorists.

Freedom of speech is important, but it has its limits. The far Right European extremists such as Wilders ought not to be allowed to roam the world setting fire to Reichstags and blaming it on the innocent.

To persecute Moslems because they are Moslems is sinful.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

There was a time some 50 to 60 years ago when all nationalities and religions were labeled with mildly derogatory nicknames, most used them although some only in private, but we didn't go around suing each other or as today, killing each other over it. I see two facets of this abusive free speech issue; on the one hand we are much more vulgar and malicious today than 50 years ago, the anonymity of the internet and especially the social nets and the media are encouraging and reinforcing that behavior; in addition, today we seem overly thin-skinned, any remark is taken with the greatest resentment and an equally evil retaliatory response is almost sure to follow. We can't even discuss the Of and EF forms of our own Liturgy without the discussion wallowing in mire in short order. Every issue, every aspect of society is becoming intensely polarized.

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BobA

I wasn't aware that racism applied to a religion. But, if it is calumny to misrepresent a set of ideas embodied in a religion, and that calumny should be outlawed because it is sinful, then I guess the same should be applied to calumny against Catholics? For certainly we should not ban speech simply because it causes a particular set of people to riot. Otherwise, Catholics should be excused for rioting and we should destroy "Piss Christ."

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Not only is it important -in some countries it is acknowledged and recognized as a God given unalienable right -just as freedom of religion is recognized. The limits of one unalienable right tends to be where such a right encroaches upon another unalienable right.

I do not consider not being offended to even be premised in an inalienable right let alone a right in and of itself; however, not being assaulted on the other hand is premised upon a right to life. Being offended is neither an excuse to riot nor excuse to assault others.

Your logic is flawed -the only thing being persecuted here is common sense. I suspect the utopic ends some seek blinds them to the flawed means promoted for 'justice'.

I thank God that those that think like this do not define my rights -yet, though they persistently try to do so.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51