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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013 22:59 
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There is only one person, President Obama, that is in charge of and orders prosecution of this illegitimate effort -as well, only one person that can stop it UNLESS others force him to stop it. The buck stops with President Obama on this one.

Moral issues surrounding this issue like that of torture of non US citizens might be argued until the cows come home; however; US Constitutional issues are quite clear as far as among other things the requirement for due process. In this effort President Obama clearly violates the US Constitution and the inalienable rights of US citizens -regardless his excuses.

'Judge, jury and executioner': Legal experts fear implications of White House drone memo

-small excerpt:
Quote:
Legal experts expressed grave reservations Tuesday about an Obama administration memo concluding that the United States can order the killing of American citizens believed to be affiliated with al-Qaida — with one saying the White House was acting as “judge, jury and executioner.”

The experts said that the memo, first obtained by NBC News, threatened constitutional rights and dangerously expanded the definition of national self-defense and of what constitutes an imminent attack.

“Anyone should be concerned when the president and his lawyers make up their own interpretation of the law or their own rules,” said Mary Ellen O’Connell, a law professor at the University of Notre Dame and an authority on international law and the use of force.

“This is a very, very dangerous thing that the president has done,” she added.

The memo, made public Monday, provides detail about the administration’s controversial expansion of drone strikes against al-Qaida suspects abroad, including those aimed at American citizens.

Among them were Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan, who were killed by an American strike in September 2011 in Yemen. Both men were U.S. citizens who had not been charged with a crime.

Attorney General Eric Holder, in a talk at Northwestern University Law School in March, endorsed the constitutionality of targeted killings of Americans provided that the government determines such an individual poses “an imminent threat of violent attack.”

But the memo obtained by NBC News refers to a broader definition of imminence and specifically says the government is not required to have “clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future.”

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013 07:55 
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http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf

Here is a link to the white paper, 16 pages or so, worth reading. I think since 9/11 we have hardened ourselves to news of drone strikes in far away lands that kill a few civilians now and then. For some years public officials would not even admit the drone program existed, when releasing information to American citizens. Obviously, the enemy knows they face incoming missiles, so it was only a 'secret' to us.

But I hope we reconsider it, now that the policy is deemed to include Americans as targets, possibly even inside the US geographically. The Attorney General answered questions from the press, yesterday, speaking in the vaguest terms imaginable. The White Paper itself is very vague- it does not actually mention the President or any other official, it does not mention criteria or limitations of any kind, and does not seem to exclude any possibilities.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013 08:04 
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This is so outside the scope of the US Constitution, I have no idea where to begin.

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013 10:26 
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The danger to citizens both abroad and stateside by these escalating excesses of Presidential authority is almost beyond imagination. The assassination of US citizens at the discretion of the President or anyone else in the administration without due process is not only against the constitution, it's immoral, unethical and nothing short of outright murder. We have already seen pro-life, religious and pro-constitution groups labeled by agencies of this administration including DHS, FBI, CIA and even the military as potential terrorists. Are we to be spied upon in church parking lots, at pro-life rallies and maybe followed home for further surveillance by government/police drones for being Catholic and/or merely being conscientious citizens?

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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013 11:49 
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I am deeply concerned by this. It has enormous potential for abuse.

The problem remains that we have no legal framework for war against non-governmental organizations. If an American citizen were an officer in a foreign army actively at war with the United States, targetting them for assasination (that's what this is) would be a legal no-brainer. So what we have to figure out is how do we conduct war against non-governmental entities, while remaining civilized but also while not tying our hands so much that we violate our nation's right to defend itself?

I don't know the answer, but it's not as simple as "You can't kill anyone who's an American citizen without a trial." Heck, if that were the case, no cop could ever shoot someone.

This, from Wikipedia on substantive due process (which is what would be violated on a Constitutional basis):

Quote:
The Court usually looks first to see if there is a fundamental right, by examining if the right can be found deeply rooted in American history and traditions. Where the right is not a fundamental right, the court applies a rational basis test: if the violation of the right can be rationally related to a legitimate government purpose, then the law is held valid. If the court establishes that the right being violated is a fundamental right, it applies strict scrutiny. This test inquires into whether there is a compelling state interest being furthered by the violation of the right, and whether the law in question is narrowly tailored to address the state interest.


So even a fundamental right has always been able to abrogated by a "compelling state interest". One example might be, as above, the police officer who shoots a perpetrator who is threatening the life of an innocent. The moral principle extends to those plotting to conduct terrorist acts against our nation; citizen or not, they may be legitimate targets for violent act in self-defense or our nation.

As an aside, note that the Fifth Amendment does not apply only to citizens, but to all persons. And just as the right to due process conveys with a citizen when they are overseas, it can be argued that one cannot deprive a citizen of another nation who is in their nation of life liberty or property without due process of law. So this is not just about citizens. But of course, "due process of law" can also include a declaration of war by Congress. Which brings me back to my first point; how do we declare and prosecute war on non-governmental organizations?

How would you all suggest dealing with an American citizen who is a member of Al-Qaeda and is known to be assisting in executing attacks on the United States of America?

Edited PS - I just ran across a fantastic summary for this on Google Plus. "The scandal is that there is no enforceable procedure, no clear boundaries to the war, and that no one in particular seems interested in creating either." <-- THAT is the real issue.

In context:
Quote:
The scandal is not that the executive has adopted a procedure for shooting missiles at American citizens overseas: this has historically been rare, but during wars, shooting at fellow-citizens under arms for a foreign power has been uncontroversial. The scandal is that there is no enforceable procedure, no clear boundaries to the war, and that no one in particular seems interested in creating either

The drone-war debacle is the consequence of there being large swaths of de facto stateless territory filled with large numbers of de facto stateless people. North Yemen, Waziristan, eastern Libya, and most of central Afghanistan are not under any particular government's control in any meaningful sense.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 08:37 
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Kardinal wrote:
I am deeply concerned by this. It has enormous potential for abuse.

The problem remains that we have no legal framework for war against non-governmental organizations.



When it comes to the actions of President Obama being discussed I am not as naive as some may still be. I think it safe to say that President Obama has moved beyond 'potential' for abuse and clearly abuses his powers in this area as he does in all areas.

As to your problem statement, I think your broad premise as to the enemy war is legitimately waged upon is in error and as well your lack of legal framework claim based upon the premise is in error. The US does have a legal framework for the war on terror including non-governmental organizations; however, the enemies the President is authorized to wage war upon including non-governmental organizations is limited in scope.

The legal basis was passed by Congress with the “Authorization to Use Military Force” joint Resolution that states among other things:

Quote:
That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism.


Once a legitimate legal basis to wage war is established then the legal framework for waging war (a framework that that has existed and evolved based upon legal precedence for quite some time) is employed. In my opinion, establishing a legal basis to wage a war comprises a large measure of the due process that is to be afforded all US citizens. However, this not not all the due process that is required when it comes to a kill list and targeted executions of US citizens not directly in a combat zone, not directly engaged in combat, and not an imminent threat to US blood or treasure.

In my opinion, President Obama is in new and illegitimate territory with this private and secret assassination/execution program. The fact that this new territory is void of any legal framework speaks volumes as to the fact that it is as such devoid of any legal basis and as such is self evidently quite illegitimate.

What President Obama does now has never been done and never been authorized and as such would require not only a legal basis but as well a legal framework -one he has erroneously attempted to come up with himself, one that should be public, AND one that should include more than just the whims of the Executive branch to carry out. Otherwise, the execution program will remain as it is now -illegitimate in all regards -one where President Obama has anointed himself 'Judge, Jury and Executioner' of US citizens.

In summary, you stated yourself the obvious -without a legal framework IT is illegal.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 08:53 
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Let's not forget which groups have already been identified by the DHS as potential terrorists! The enemy is us as POGO once said.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 09:26 
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I tend to look for patterns in everything so humor me if you will:

The President is authorized imperialistic power to designate, pursue and execute "international" terrorists; no restriction on location.

The President announces the need for a civilian "domestic" security force (army like).

DHS designates veterans, retired police, pro-life, pro-constitution and religious organizations, essentially anyone who opposes any government dictum, as potential terrorists.

Presidential mandates and executive orders with highly questionable constitutional authority and sure to offend conservative and religious groups are issued by the dozens.

There is an enormous proliferation of "surveillance drones" throughout the continental US.

DHS has and continues to amass a couple of billion rounds of ammunition and modern warfare firearms.

Hmmm! What's going on?

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 15:32 
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If anyone doubts Mr. Obama's trust in of the Military please review these photos.

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Marines who are marching in the recent Inaugural Parade, most likely ordered to do so.


Now in this close up look at their rifles.

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Can you see what's wrong?

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 16:21 
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BobC wrote:
If anyone doubts Mr. Obama's trust in of the Military please review these photos.

Image

Marines who are marching in the recent Inaugural Parade, most likely ordered to do so.


Now in this close up look at their rifles.

Image

Can you see what's wrong?


Not being familiar with the art of parading, thankfully, I would expect the rifles to be unloaded or is there more to the picture than that? Maybe it's the choice of rifle?

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 17:23 
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Bob,

The bolts have been removed from their rifles.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 17:38 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Bob,

The bolts have been removed from their rifles.


I could see the bolt was open but I had to go to an on-line photo of one to see that it might be removed, not very familiar with the Garand. On our boat we had standard issue model 1911 .45s, a couple of Thompson submachine guns and one BAR.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 18:40 
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Bob,

You think Marines marching in previous Presidents' parades had fireable rifles?

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 19:02 
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Kardinal wrote:
Bob,

You think Marines marching in previous Presidents' parades had fireable rifles?


I think the point BobC was making is that there was no way a rogue soldier could have loaded a rifle, indeed that does sound like a level of distrust to me. On the couple of occasions when I had to march I carried a fully operational 06 Springfield rifle.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 19:28 
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bali wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
Bob,

You think Marines marching in previous Presidents' parades had fireable rifles?


I think the point BobC was making is that there was no way a rogue soldier could have loaded a rifle, indeed that does sound like a level of distrust to me. On the couple of occasions when I had to march I carried a fully operational 06 Springfield rifle.

Maybe so. But I think there are potentially other explanations other than "Obama doesn't trust the military". These are the guys who have guns around him all the time. If he doesn't trust them, this would be the least show of it.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 20:30 
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Kardinal wrote:
bali wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
Bob,

You think Marines marching in previous Presidents' parades had fireable rifles?


I think the point BobC was making is that there was no way a rogue soldier could have loaded a rifle, indeed that does sound like a level of distrust to me. On the couple of occasions when I had to march I carried a fully operational 06 Springfield rifle.

Maybe so. But I think there are potentially other explanations other than "Obama doesn't trust the military". These are the guys who have guns around him all the time. If he doesn't trust them, this would be the least show of it.


Doesn't it seem odd to you that the most professional military force in the world would be treated like some high school ROTC cadets? I suspect rather than Obama pushing the issue it was more likely the Secret Service.

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PostPosted: 12 Feb 2013 20:33 
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The point I was making is that the level of trust is such that not only were the rifles unloaded,which I would expect, but those Garands, while fine rifles they are basically ceremonial these days; were disabled an totally unable to fire.

And yes Jeff if you look around on the internet for other Inaugural Parades including Obama's first you will not see disabled rifles.

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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2013 10:39 
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Court Says CIA Can't Have It Both Ways on Drones
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A federal appeals court has rejected an effort by the CIA to deny it has any documents about a U.S. drone program that has killed terrorists overseas, ruling that the agency is stretching the law too far and asking judges "to give their imprimatur to a fiction of deniability that no reasonable person would regard as plausible."

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