Catholic Online Forum

You really do have to wonder if the bishops really are not understanding the situation the Church is in.

Priest who admitted groping boy appointed to high-profile position in Newark Archdiocese

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

Archbishop John J. Myers...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abu ... ia_diocese

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

This is a real head scratcher for me.

_________________
Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Jeff,



As I haven't been here in a while, I've forgotten how to separate the various comments in a post. First, Cardinal Mahoney is retired. Maybe you can explain as I don't know. Was he still performing public and administrative duties in his retirement? What does it mean, then, for a cardinal to retire?

As far as not knowing if accusations are true, read Val's post below yours. He didn't know Cedar Sainai had a children's ward? Seriously?? Look, I can call evil evil and still acknowledge him as a caardinal. Notice that I don't write "Mahoney". I write "Cardinal Mahoney".

Sometimes the most merciful action is to allow the person to suffer the full consequences of his actions. How merciful is it to allow a cardinal "off the hook" and let him die without consequences? I'd rather have Cardinal Mahoney suffer severely now then suffer severely when he dies.

It's complicated because I don't know if Cardinal Mahoney went to Confession. If he did, then he would be in good standing, wouldn't he? I don't know how it all "works" for priests who commit serious crimes.

_________________
Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

Thank you, Val!



Nice to "see" you too.

Your comment about using reason is so important! Faith and reason go together. Yes, Cardinal Mahoney should have found out if Cedar Sinai had a children's ward if he didn't know. He didn't know, though? Seriously??

I'm still processing the whole thing and I don't know if I really can.

_________________
Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

At times I catch myself oscillating between wondering if a bishop or bishops could be so extremely detached from the day to day details and the relative big picture and between wondering if a bishop or bishops is actually involved and part of the problem e.g. the "lavender mafia" which is often referred to not only in the Church but as well corporate business and government with coming soon I fear to a theater near you -the military brass.

Sexual activity outside of marriage; especially perverted and intrinsically disordered sexual activity corrupts individuals, institutions, and societies. When the perverts are not preying on children they are perverting and using each other -it does not take a quantum leap of thought to conclude [they] network, favor and protect each other -all at the expense of a just society.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

No problem, Nina.

He is not retired per se. To my knowledge, there is no requirement that secular bishops or priests retire; they can do so whenever they wish and their finances permit. He was required by canon law to submit his resignation as bishop of Los Angeles. He continued to serve as a member of the board of trustees and...something else I don't recall off the top of my head. Basically, he no longer has any responsibilities in the diocese. In civilian terms, basically, he was fired. But he remains a priest, bishop, and cardinal, and is free to continue to operate as such, though he is probably technically unemployed right now.


You are free to call his actions evil if you wish, if you have sufficient reason to do so. I have not reviewed the available evidence in detail (I have a job and a family which are more demanding of my time), but if you can be reasonably sure based on the evidence we have that he did wrong, then you are of course free to call it sinful, evil, and wrong. But make very sure you are correct in doing so. If you accuse someone of something that is not true, you commit the sin of calumny. And when it comes to a very public figure in the Church like a Cardinal, you may bring scandal on the Church as well.


Sometimes it is. No one is suggesting that if Cardinal Mahony is guilty that he should not suffer consequences. But that decision is up to the local law enforcement in regards to civil law, and up to Rome in regards to Church law. I'm not sure that Archbishop Gomez has the right to canonically punish his predecessor even in his own diocese. I defer to Dean on that point.


The Sacrament of Penance does not absolve him of either civil responsibility or canonical penalties if appropriate, because both are designed in part to deter others from committing the crime again.

I do have to ask, though. Were we all equally outraged at Cardinal Law's situation, in which he seems to have done similar to Cardinal Mahony and actually does seem to have escaped any adverse consequences, civil or canonical?

_________________
Jeff Stevens

When I am hurt with the betrayal of church authority I find it hard to keep my mouth shut.

_________________
Simon

We should absolutely admonish the sinner; it is our duty.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying be careful.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

My question would be: "Is my posting about this on a website "admonishing the sinner" or gossip/calumny?"

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

I think that if the original is false and causing calumny, then you are at the very least further distributing that falsehood.

_________________
Bob C

Bob, I don't think it would be any different if I didn't know whether the original was false or not. Commenting critically about people involved in issues about which I have no personal knowledge is, to me, at the very least perpetrating gossip.

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Jim,

I agree I just stay out of it.

_________________
Bob C

This out of control car is just gaining speed:

http://www.frilloblog.com/1/post/2013/0 ... geles.html

_________________
Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Wonderful link, thanks.

_________________
BobA

My knowledge in this area is very slim. But the following canon exempts a Cardinal from punishment by the diocesan bishop:



As a Cardinal, he also has faculties to hear confessions everywhere and cannot be restricted from this by the local bishop.
I'm not sure on the other sacraments, particularly baptism and confirmation. It would seem that the diocesan bishop may have the ability to deny permission to celebrate those sacraments within his territory, but I'm not sure.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Jim,



It reminds me of one of Geoffrey Robertson's Hypothetical series. The following exchange took place with a very well-known newspaper editor (who we needn't name):

Robertson: There is a vile rumour about a celebrity; do you publish it?
Editor: Of course. I'll print anything that sells papers.
Robertson: You know the rumour to be false; do you still publish?
Editor: I publish that it is rumoured.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Isn't keeping quiet so we don't accidentally disparage any clergy how we got into this mess? I don't think I have to read the report if a bishop who not only read it but provided it to the police considers it sufficient evidence of wrong doing to relieve a Cardinal of all administrative duties. Before this latest revelation this would have been rumor and gossip, now it's a matter of waiting to understand how severe the situation is and how bad it will become for the Church.

_________________
BobA

So while we're waiting, it's okay to speculate?

Being gifted with neither prescience nor insider knowledge, I will wait for the final verdict. Even then, I have trouble seeing how my observations, other than to generally condemn sin, can be helpful.

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Wait we must and then we can get on to the excuse phase. I have to say having been an altar boy during the fifties I feel a somewhat special attachment to these cases, I feel personally betrayed even though I was not personally abused by any clergy. My personal foible I suppose but I won't hide it just to avoid criticism, it's how I feel and that's that. I do pray for forgiveness but since the feelings persist my prayers are probably wasted.

_________________
BobA

Thats GREAT- I was one in and out-but today dont read at Mass -lapsed into sin

_________________
Simon

Bob wrote:


Yes.

_________________
Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

Thank you, Dean, for the canon law quotes.

(Sorry, having Internet issues so am replying by using my phone.)

_________________
Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

Thank you, Jeff,

for breaking it down for me what it means for a retired cardinal to lose his abilities to serve administratively and perform other public duties and what it means for a cardinal to retire. I also appreciate your explaining that Cardinal Mahony was fired and is, technically, unemployed presently. These are terms I understand.

I'd reply more completely to everything you wrote but I'm doing this by phone and it's a bit tricky for me. I just wanted to be sure you knew that I did read your post and appreciate your time and effort and everyone else's as well.

_________________
Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

No. What got us in this mess is bishops and priests who covered up terrible sins against children in the interests of the reputation of the Church.


Archbishop Gomez' actions indicate a precaution on his part as this is investigated. It means the accusations are credible, not that they are conclusive. It's probably analogous to filing formal charges or a grand jury indictment, not a conviction.

If Cardinal Mahony were but a priest, his faculties or he himself would likely have been suspended. We know that sometimes in cases of those suspension, the priest is found to be innocent of wrongdoing and returned to ministry. So we should not read too much into his actions.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

I think it would not take too much thought to consider that the actual victims of abuse and their parents met many similar voiced concerns and objections when initially the issues were raised. In my opinion, truth will win out and all this mess should be given the light of day. God judges surely what men can not though try their best to. Shutting people up for the sake of possibly maintaining material appearances and material positions and power does not seem like a good prescription to me when really we ultimately discuss souls and salvation.

Maybe this is a dirty mess and quite possibly no matter how much you wish it so there is no way to 'cleanly' navigate through it?

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

There's no question that the whole mess should reach the light of day. And then we can draw conclusions about it. Until then, we should be cautious. This is in the beginning stages of investigation. When the evidence is out, there will be ample time for assigning blame, and at least then we'll (hopefully) have the relevant facts.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

I don't see it as Archbishop Gomez attempting to punish Cardinal Mahoney.

I see it as the Archbishop simply saying it would be inappropriate to have Cardinal Mahoney function as a representative of the Archdiocese while there is an open, specific question on his actions/judgment in such a critical matter.

_________________
Rob

Jeff,



That is a contributing factor, but not the only one. BobA is correct that what also allowed the horrible sins to continue was a culture of unquestioning respect and trust by the laity for clerics. It was almost as if they were worshipped. Mom and Dad being extremely proud that Fr. Feminine was paying LOTS of attention to their son and taking him on special trips. That must be one special boy! And then Mom and Dad not believing their son if he dared reach out to them. And so accusations were suppressed before they could even reach the bishop's office. We see echoes of this culture, I believe, in those who unquestioningly take Fr. Spoutalot's opinion over any layperson's, who believe the collar imparts some magical wisdom and superior competence in most everything. And I have personal experience, at my own parish, how elderly ladies (especially, it seems) refuse to believe credible and substantiated claims against certain men who have taken their hearts with sweetness.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Absolutely I was furious about the Cardinal Law situation and if I remember correctly, I was especially angry that he was given a post in Rome and I can't help but wonder if it was to avoid his having to testify in America. I don't care who was responsible, I'm angry at all of them.

Look, when someone goes on a rampage about the church in this matter, I remind them that one of the most dangerous places for a girl is in the home with a step father or especially, a boyfriend and mothers are one of the top people who refuse to either believe to their child or to tell them outright that they will jeopardize the family situation if they continue to talk about it. I can understand to some extent how a bishop can have a fatherly feeling for their priests and feel they want to keep them in the family and that the priest may have confessed (I recall one who told the Cardinal (Mahony) himself) and be absolved and should be forgiven but too bad about their feelings. I can't imagine caring about someone and continuing to care about them if I were to find out they committed one of the most heinous of crimes.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Dean,

I agree with your comment; we must be vigilant and cannot trust clerics implicitly. I'm not advocating that. But my summary is not a contributing factor; it is the heart of the issue. They bear primary responsibility for the scandal, whereas the priests who did these terrible things bear primary responsibility for those sins. We as the laity do bear secondary responsibility; unquestioning trust in clerics was, as you say, a contributing factor.

But, of course, that doesn't mean we go to the other extreme and immediately condemn as guilty any cleric against whom a credible accusation is made. There is a very good priest in our diocese who had a credible accusation made against him, of which it appears he is not guilty. The criminal and diocesan investigations have been dropped without any charges, from what I've heard. And yet he is not restored to ministry. I trust our bishop that he has reasons for doing so.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Jeff,



I agree and this is so much a part of why priests feel demoralized because they know that at any time, an accusation can be made against them and guilty or not, they're immediately removed from ministry. We had the same situation with a priest who lived at our parish and still hasn't returned to ministry.

Here in California, I just heard of yet another legislator attempting to remove the statue of limitations on child abuse crimes and it appears to obviously be aimed at the church though it will include everyone. I understand the thinking.. .many children don't report until they're adults and have the ability to do so but it's unfair to the defendant and the limitation is there for a reason as it is very difficult for someone to defend themselves against accusations made fifty years ago.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Jeff,

I see it as a chicken/egg argument. I believe in large part the laity gets, develops, and keeps the clergy it raises/tolerates/adores, and that includes the clergy who in turn let the fog of the desire for worldly approval determine their course of action against priests who committed terrible sins. The environment in which the clergy at the heart of the scandal grew up was one where the laity were seen and not heard. It was very insulated, and an insulated environment is one where evil can incubate.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Cardinal Law was promoted but the havoc he left behind nearly resulted in diocesan bankruptcy and did result in closure of many good parishes, my Baptismal parish to name one, and many, many bitter parishioners. Perhaps Chivari Rob might weigh in since he is in that diocese, has resentment finally cooled there? I refuse to think the Vatican promoted and moved him to prevent testimony because if that was the case who can we trust at this point? At any rate, he is no longer in that Vatican position and may be subject to investigation.

The evidence review in LA may lead, probably should lead to more discovery efforts around the country and those guilty of criminal activity should be brought to justice; they may be forgiven through Penance but that does not absolve them of restitution.

_________________
BobA

As I recall, Cardinal Law agreed to return to the U.S. if requested. It sounded like the Boston DA was glad to have him out of the way; as was everyone else except the media. A prolonged legal battle would have provided many headlines, but done little to solve the problem.

It is interesting to remember that Cardinal Mahony was so offended by Cardinal Law's disgrace that he refused to walk down the aisle with him at some Roman ceremony.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I don't buy the "Cardinal Law fled" argument. I just want to make sure we're not biased against Cardinal Mahony, unwilling to grant him a just presumption of innocence merely because he's a liberal.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

I really like this observation because it is universal.Keeping secrets is not always correct.In the church community we have to be open about our faults when in key roles.We have to listen humbly to others so that they may correct us .

_________________
Simon

Joe,



It was during the last set of Novendiales. It fell to Cardinal Law to celebrate the St Mary Major Mass as he is archpriest there. Not a single American Cardinal attended.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Correction:

"It fell to Cardinal Law to celebrate the St Mary Major Mass as he is archpriest there."

Was archpriest.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Cardinal Mahoney attempts to spin his way out of the mess:

http://cardinalrogermahonyblogsla.blogs ... ation.html

_________________
Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Or give him a free pass just because he's a cardinal (not that you're doing that, Jeff).

_________________
Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

A lot of people around here seem to be incensed over the fact that Cardinal Mahony will be able to vote for the new Pope.

Should he be denied that privilege? Should he recuse himself?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I don't know if he should recuse himself, but for better or for worse, he represents a certain constituency.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Rose,

He doesn't represent anyone. He's not a Congressman.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

It is his decision to make. I believe his vote will cast a shadow over the election but the reality is it won't matter unless it comes down to a razor thin margin for the Pope elect.

_________________
BobA

David,

He has not been stripped of his scarlet. He is a cardinal and is under the age of 80. He has every right to attend.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Of course not, but he is representative of a segment of the Church.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Legal right, yes.

Moral right? Questionable.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Rob, your summary represents the best way of describing what Archbishop Gomez did. He did not suspend the Cardinal from ministry, because only the Pope can do that. He didn't forbid the Cardinal from offering even a public Mass or conferring any sacraments. Gomez merely asked the Cardinal not to represent the Archdiocese of Los Angeles at public functions. This may seem as a slap on the hand, but it is not.

Even such a slight request, directed against the man who was running the Archdiocese for 25 years and still has numerous contacts in the political and civil arena, is extremely humiliating and quite damning. It is a public shaming and distancing from the Cardinal for failing to protect children better in the 1980's (in the 90's and afterwards the Cardinal practiced "zero tolerance") and will certainly lead many clergy in Los Angeles to shun the Cardinal.

As for voting, James is right. While he wears the scarlet of office, no one can deny him that right.

_________________
Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

According to Archbishop Gomez he does not represent the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx