Catholic Online Forum

I have to agree that no such causal relationship has been demonstrated. I do believe this is a case of several curiously similar unique situations that got out of hand. I am still suspicious of the fact that all the diocese implicated seem to have coincidentally arrived at the same erroneous decision to move priests around and suppress publicity rather than report the abuses to authorities. Regardless of the social norms and environment of the time perhaps allowing looking the other way in abuse cases, I expect our bishops to adhere to a higher standard.

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BobA

By correlation I imply that there is statistical significant fact underlying the causation that for some including myself is a matter of faith requiring no proof.

Much matters of faith are attacked based upon the reasoning that an argument and or conclusion without proof is a flawed argument or conclusion. Well, this form of argument may imply an argument is flawed; however, it does not imply that a resulting conclusion is false. In essence, such an argument is irrelevant as to ascertaining the conclusion -truth, In matters such as this then clearly other than the unfaithful honest who sit on the sidelines there are two sides -those of the faith and those who oppose the faith.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Matters of empirical fact are not, by definition, matters of faith. They are matters of reason and logic which, if we do not base them on reason, we violate reason.


Again, you use "imply" inaccurately, but I think I understand what you're saying. While an argument can be faulty and the conclusion true, if the argument is the reason that one believes it, one is wrong to believe it.

What I just heard you say is "I believe as a matter of faith that liberal bishops protect priest abusers more than conservative bishops. I don't believe that on the basis of any evidence."

The way I would put your argument is to say:
(A) Liberal bishops sin more than conservative bishops.
(B) Protecting priest sex abusers is a sin.

Therefore

Liberal bishops protect priest sex abusers more than conservative bishops.

That's not an illogical conclusion to come to. But reason demands of us that we check our conclusions of faith against the evidence of our eyes, just as the heliocentric model challenged the geocentric model of the universe and radiological dating challenged the young-earth creationist theory. If we find that our conclusions of faith contradict what we see in empirical evidence, we may need to revisit our conclusions of faith and seek a deeper understanding.

Obviously the natural does not conflict with the supernatural. When natural conclusions conflict with conclusions based on matters of faith, the error is clearly in ourselves, not in our faith. Perhaps we misunderstand the empirical evidence; perhaps we misunderstand the faith. But truth is truth and we should not shy away from it, rather we should embrace it.

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Jeff Stevens

Val,



I'd no idea his girth was that problematic.



Best not; he might be dangerous.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Jeff,



I specified that I was speaking only anecdotally. (And explained what had prompted the observation.)



As a simply matter of first year Logic, a statistical correlation implies nothing but itself.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

You haven't been doing so, either, it seems, LOL.

I envision three categories of accusations: true that there was some sort of conspiracy, something happened and the Bishop acted decisively, and false.

How would we quantify how strictly the various dioceses follow the GIRM?

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

I'm not drawing any correlations, Rose.

Twice I have started posts where I name names of conservative bishops who are accused of protecting priests who abused children. Twice I discarded them because it is a distraction.


Good question. If we can't, then why are we correlating between liberalness in liturgy and protection of priests who abused children?

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Jeff Stevens

I had to chuckle upon reading this when considering what I admit is a conclusion premised in faith compared to for instance those advocating for gun control, climate science, and 'gay' beings -who jump up and down claiming their correlation arguments prove the facts much as some like President Obama proclaim faithfully the leftist dogma -it is settled science.

No 'for the children' or 'for the planet' or 'for the future' arguments are needed when facts are evident.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Let me add that in some cases it has even been found that the correlations themselves are fabrications -regardless, the faithful left persists.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

It's hard to correlate anything, given that there's no good way to define the terms.

I would request to you in your own comments that you differentiate between accusations and proven truth. Some of these stories have turned out to be complete fabrications, whereas a little digging on others shows that yes there were problems, but the Bishops either did what they should have done, or fixed the problems they allowed. If we're looking to correlate anything here, it should be with what's proven, not accusations.

And I think if we were to actually try to sit down and get what could be considered "good" data, we'd have a real problem with some things. I think you'd have to go on a parish by parish basis if you were looking for liturgical abuse, just as in many dioceses, you'd have to look parish by parish to find instances of other forms of abuse. Plus, there's the fact that all of these abuses that happened during the 70's and 80's (both physical and liturgical) were carried out by men who were formed back when what we consider the Extraordinary Form now was simply the Mass.

So I think we're looking at two symptoms of the same problem, which is that somehow for a lot of people, what some consider the golden age of Catholic education in America completely missed the mark.

Fr. Z tucked this into the end of one of his posts this week:



I don't think he's saying it's our fault that these things have happened, but I think he's right in that our priests will only have the support of our prayers if we actually pray for them. And our future priests will only be as well-educated as the boys we're raising (or assisting to raise through CCD or the friends of our kids) right now. The laity can't say Mass or otherwise bring us the Sacraments, but we provide the matter, particularly in the case of Holy Orders.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

I thought a cardinal would be the superior of an archbishop, but anyway.

From Archbishop Gomez:



http://www.la-archdiocese.org/org/media ... ent-EN.pdf

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

I just heard about this. This marks the end of an era in Los Angeles. Many things will no doubt be quite different -I can think of at at least one annual Religious Education Congress event that might change a wee bit.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Good!

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Grace,



Unless the Cardinal holds an office, such as in the Pope's Curia, which is given universal authority in some aspect of governance, the Cardinal is subject to the diocesan bishop's governance of his own diocese.

In a similar way, an auxiliary bishop may find himself taking orders from a priest who is a Moderator of the Curia of the diocesan biship, because the moderator speaks with the voice of the dicoesan bishop.

It goes to the office, not necessarily the title.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That's what they said last year.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I just heard an interview with a Fr. Thomas Doyle where he really blasted Card. Mahoney and the Los Angeles Archdiocese. Does anybody know Fr. Doyle's background?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Well, David, if you "Google him", you will get several hundred 'hits' so his background must be extensive!

Here is a brief bio: Father Thomas Doyle’s Biography by Richard Sipe

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Even if a Cardinal makes very serious mistakes ,the Church remains firm.For me this is proof of the Divine origins of the Church

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Simon

David,



Here is an interview with Australian journalist George Negus


http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/tr ... -Tom-Doyle

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The Cardinal responds:

http://documents.latimes.com/cardinal-mahony-letter-archbishop-gomez/

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Today I heard a woman, who identified herself as a victim of abuse by a priest, say that the Cardinal ought to be in jail.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Agreed.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

David L,

If he committed a crime worthy for jail time then I for one, would be quite happy to see him there.

I'm not sure what "public duties means". He occasionally does Masses in our parish and my understanding from some fairly close to him is that he likes to travel to different parishes on Sundays to celebrate Mass. Is that a public duty or something he has chosen to do and not a duty? I hope Archbishop Gomez becomes a cardinal soon and able to vote in the next conclave.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

David,

Perhaps he could be made Archpriest of Santa Maria Maggiore?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

It appears now the cardinal is trying to drag Archbp. Gomez down with him, what a sorry representative of the Church he has become.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/02/card-mahonys-next-move-deflect-responsibility-to-archbp-gomez/

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BobA

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Is this accurate?

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Simon

How easy is it to forgive a Cardinal?I find it impossible to forgive Church leaders when they make mistakes because the evil they do is irreparable

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Simon

Dean,
Thanks for the explanation.

Here's another dimension: Catholic Church basher, Media favorite: Rev. Thomas P. Doyle, O.P.
"Almost without exception, journalists never mention Doyle's very lengthy record of dissent and animosity against the Catholic Church. In the past Doyle:..."
"As an angry leftist and professional dissident, Doyle is hardly the unbiased "expert" that the media purports him to be."

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Yes! I love this quote, too, that when a cardinal was told that Napoleon wanted to destroy the Church, the cardinal said, "He will never succeed. We have not managed to do it ourselves!"

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

This attributed to Father Doyle has worried me.But I am quite sure that there are many in the US Church who would be more than equal to Father Doyle.He may criticize what is wrong,be a member of SNAP etc ,but we have a scholar as Pope.

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Simon

I am terribly saddened by this whole situation. While I disagree with Cardinal Mahony on many issues, he is still a Catholic and, if these accusations are true, should absolutely have known better than to allow this to happen. I hope Archbishop Gomez tried to talk to Cardinal Mahony before withdrawing him from his public duties, as it is a drastic step to take against a prince of the Church. And it seems totally inappropriate for Cardinal Mahony to have what amounts to a public debate with Archbishop Gomez.

It's just sad all around. Prayers for all of them, including the victims.

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Jeff Stevens

I seriously doubt that Archbishop Gomez would have taken this action if the documents, records or the Cardinal's actions, were in any way questionable. He is a Catholic but in my opinion he is only a Catholic, he has disgraced himself to the point I can no longer consider him a "Prince of the Church", in essence he is a false prophet.

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BobA

I'm not sure that Archbishop Gomez' actions necessarily close the book on Cardinal Mahony's guilt. As in situations where a priest is suspended purely on the basis of a credible accusation, Archbishop Gomez' instruction to Cardinal Mahony that he will refrain from public actions may be a preliminary action pending further investigation. That said, it does certainly lend credibility to the accusations. If they were not credible and did not come with corroborating evidence, Archbishop Gomez would not have taken that step.

As for Cardinal Mahony's position and dignity, that is not up to us to decide. As with Cardinal Law, the accusations against whom were more credible from what we know than are the accusations against Cardinal Mahony, we are not in a position to judge the status of a Cardinal of the Church. We can certainly decide in our prudence whether we trust and believe what he says, but we have that choice with all bishops. A notable exception however, is that we do not have the option of disobeying them if they have jurisdiction over us, as in the case of our local bishop or a bishop with universal jurisdiction of some aspect of governance.

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Jeff Stevens

Archbishop Gomez issued another statement Friday afternoon: It read: "Questions from the faithful and some members of the news media indicate that it would be helpful for me to clarify the status of Cardinal Roger Mahony and Bishop Thomas Curry.
Cardinal Mahony, as Archbishop Emeritus, and Bishop Curry, as Auxiliary Bishop, remain bishops in good standing in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, with full rights to celebrate the Holy Sacraments of the Church and to minister to the faithful without restriction."


http://www.la-archdiocese.org/org/media/Pages/news.aspx

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James

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2013/02/02/yes-mahony-is-right-he-is-also-so-very-very-wrong/

Elizabeth Scalia weighs in.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Not disagreeing with you Jeff and not trying to impugn the religious nature man since I have no way to assess that but my view of him as bishop and cardinal are damaged beyond repair and his actions, based on comments from those in his diocese, have damaged the faith of many. I do expect this may only be the beginning of his trials both civilly and from the Vatican; perhaps he will be fortunate and serve his penance on Earth, if penance is due.

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BobA

I definitely agree with Elizabeth Scalia in this observation:



Today still, even when it contradicts the truth, many rely on the “experts” of the world and premise ministries upon the rules of the world to guide ministries in these issues instead of relying on everything the Church knows is truth.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Sounds like that is the most likely scenario, yes.

To the Church's shame.

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Jeff Stevens

What I said at the time and *still* can't get over, from the time we were discussing what happened in Boston, is why, by the second and third time this is happening with any one man, the Bishops in question didn't say, "counselling/training isn't going to work; we need to get these men away from children, for their own good as well as for the children."

It seems as though simple logic was being ignored.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Such is the case in the federal government today.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I would say that the logic of the government is ok, but their basic premise is flawed. If you begin your thinking with the belief that people are just another type of animal that needs to be herded and controlled, what the government is trying to do is perfectly logical.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Okay. You make a good point.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Regarding the Church heeding advice of "experts", I think I'll wait until this HHS mandate plays out before I decide if the Church has learned any lessons from past mistakes.

Regarding Cardinal Mahoney, yes he might have let the practices of the day govern his actions but why didn't he consult with his colleagues, obviously they all didn't make the same mistakes or did they?

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BobA

Regardless of the practice of the day, he knew it was a crime so it was his duty to report it to the authorities and not treat it as a private church matter. Beside, he lied to us and I have a very hard time not disliking him completely and yet I know most people who have actually met him like him a great deal. He apparently can work a crowd and while his homilies were never inspiring, his celebration of Mass was dignified when I was there but then again, I go to a parish that was the last in the archdiocese to allow girl alter servers.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Cardinal Mahoney's response leads me to paraphrase an old maxim:

It is better to keep the mouth shut
and be thought unrepentant,
than to open it and remove all doubt.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I'm with you.

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Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

Hi, Everyone,

I haven't been here in a while but had to visit after hearing the letter that Archbishop Gomez wrote (I live in Los Angeles). I don't know where to begin in processing any of this. Cardinal Mahoney is stripped of all administration and public duties. Uh...he's retired so this is "punishment"...how again? It seems more of an opportunity to relax in his retirement. He remains in good standing and can celebrate the Sacraments...Well, I guess if I'm desperate and he's the only priest available on earth...

Look, I understand the whole, "We're a church of sinners" argument but then...I don't understand. Have any of you covered up for a child molester? Would you? No, I didn't think so. Can we just call evil evil even if it is committed by a cardinal and then dismissed, even rewarded by the new archbishop? Can we just be honest here, even publically, especially publically?

I'm still a serious Catholic and I love my Church and defend Her to those who bring up the scandal (everybody brings it up here in L.A.) but I cried when the letter was read. I'm just so angry!

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Nina

The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. ~John 1:9

It's not a punishment. It's removal from duties that could jeopardize children and prevents him from using his suspect judgment in matters of policy. Even a local bishop is not in a position to impose punishment on a Prince of the Church; that is for Rome to do.


The "We are a church of sinners argument" does not excuse any sin. It is to remind us to be merciful as Our Lord is merciful and as he reminded us when he said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." We do not condemn sinners, but we do decide, based on previous actions, whether people are trustworthy to have various responsibilities. The accusations against Cardinal Mahony's bring suspicion on his his judgment and his character. He is suspended to preclude him using that judgment to jeopardize more children or the reputation of the Church.

But we must remember that they are just accusations at this point. If those accusations are true, then his actions were certainly evil. But at this point, we don't know for sure. Cardinal Mahony's removal from public service is a precautionary and preliminary step, not the final decision.


I'm disappointed, angry, hurt, and sad as well.

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Jeff Stevens

Nina,

Nice to "see" you. I understand and share your feelings. I know a couple who feel quite close to the Cardinal as he lives at our parish and eats dinner with the other priests and this couple are frequent diners at the rectory. They tossed off, "well, he made mistakes like any of us but he apologized" and I tried not to jump down their throats as I realize that to them, he's just a nice guy they like and who "made mistakes". But, if it was the guy next door and they knew he'd protected other child molesters than I'm sure they'd feel completely different.

Sure, we're to be merciful but evil is evil and we should be able to call it by it's name and certain things are known for certain about Cardinal Mahony's guilt. We know he moved priests around even in the late 80's when by then, everybody knew it doesn't work and the 80's were a time of a great awakening about the evils of child sexual abuse and how common it actually is and a time of many self help books coming out to help survivors. It was in either the late 80's or early 90's that he sent a priest to Cedar Sinai hospital to minister knowing that he had abused boys and when that priest abused a child there, the Cardinal's response was to say he didn't know that Cedar's had a pediatric ward. Now, maybe he was telling the truth but you live in LA....you know how big Cedar's is and how well regarded, would the cardinal really not know there was a peds ward there? Am I supposed to suspend reason altogether and say, "oh, well ok he didn't know there were children at this huge, prominent hospital in Los Angeles"? Even giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing he didn't know, shouldn't he have found out? He didn't know at that point not to let the guy near children? It makes me sick and it makes me enraged, sad isn't the word for me.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict