Catholic Online Forum

Are you surprised that he allegedly covered up these crimes? Somehow I am not.

How are we as Catholics supposed to handle these stories? Pray and keep saying "We are sorry?" Is it any wonder many people do not respect the Catholic Church?

L.A. church leaders sought to hide sex abuse cases from authorities

Documents from the late 1980s show that Archbishop Roger M. Mahony and another archdiocese official discussed strategies to keep police from discovering that children were being sexually abused by priests.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 4631.story

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

I'm not surprised that there would be more revelations that heads of dioceses were negligent or criminal in their handling of sex crimes by their priests. Regarding Cardinal Mahoney specifically, since he was never my bishop, I can't say whether I'm surprised or not.

I haven't read all of the linked article or the documentation that is linked to it, but I will adopt a wait-and-see posture. I'll wait for more on the story and, if there is a court case, wait for the bishop's side of the story, before calling for his punishment. There is still more context to be discovered.

To those who do not approach this issue out of prejudice and malice toward the Catholic Church, I do not attempt to defend or justify those who committed or abetted these horrible crimes. I try to explain the the Catholic Church contains within her some terrible sinners, and that this is what Jesus meant by the parable of the wheat and the tares. I also try to explain that it is not the particular discipline of the Church that causes people to commit these crimes, as there are plenty of examples outside of the Church, including most recently the BBC, where, not only were there terrible pedophiles within the organization, but there were coverups.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

But since many of the coverups were by the Princes of the Churches, and there have been so many instances of this around the planet, it certainly doesn't make us look very good.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

It does not make us look very good, primarily because it is thought we should be practicing what we preach. We preach a higher standard, and therefore we should be held to it. However, context context context. There have been many instances around the planet because we are a global organization consisting of more than a billion people and thousands, if not millions, of "employees" working for the Church or Church-affiliated schools, hospitals, universities, charities... The number of people within the Church who have committed these crimes tracks with or below the % of people who have been convicted of abuse in other professions or in the general population.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Andrew,

Remember also that much of the world will hate us anyway because they do not / will not know Christ. It's the reason we have martyrs and persecutions. Unfortunately, the criminal behavior of some members of the Body of Christ only adds fuel to the fire of hatred that was stoked from the very beginning.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Very true, Dean.

One of the temptations we fallen human beings have difficulty resisting is to cite sinners in groups with whom we disagree as the rule rather than the exception. Thus, regardless of how small the percentage of priests who molest children — and I hope and pray that it will someday be 0% — there will be those who simply point to them as representative of Catholic Clergy.

I wish I could say that we Catholics are not susceptible to that particular temptation but I have only to look at some of my own tendencies to know that is not true!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Thanks Dean.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

The external damage to the reputation of the Church caused by this scandal is expected and the damage to the credibility of the Church is evident in our loss of political clout but I'm even more concerned about the confusion and loss of confidence in our bishops within the Church. I have to admit that I now regard the non-theological statements of the bishops with much more scrutiny than in the past and often find that I disagree when I probably would not have previously.

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BobA

Bob, I agree with this. In fact, as I have indicated recently, I am getting quite angry now when I perceive the bishops are intruding into areas that belong to the laity to live out and govern. Many bishops have made such a mess of their own domain, I believe them hardly qualified to preach to others about how they should govern their own affairs.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

We had a sign at work -

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Catholics consist of a large family throughout the world. Since God treats us corporately why shouldn't the rest of the world? Yes, it was wrong for the molestations, yes, it was worse for the cover-ups, and it was not right that the church fought for redacted copies of the proceedings not wanting the names of clergy involved in the scandal to appear on the documents. Yes, others judge all of us by the actions of some, but so what? It does not lessen my belief in Catholicism one bit because that is not what my faith consists of. We will survive this and move on. "The gates of Hell will NOT prevail against us".

There have been others involved in molestation involving other religions and organizations yet when the word pedophile or molestation appears the world points the finger at Catholics.
As a corporate member I am sorry for these scandals and cover-ups yet Catholicism is the best religion for me as in my heart and soul through discernment I know it is still right for me. Are there some things I would like to see change in the Church? Yes, but they do not involve ordination, or homosexuality acceptance, nor differing views from the "right to life" nor other more common objections.
I do not make excuses for the sins of others nor for myself. Reconciliation is still one of the greatest sacraments and yes, forgiveness does come from God who chooses to work through the priest.

A time is approaching when many will seek Jesus through the Catholic faith for redemption. We will be there to welcome them into our fold. We will go forward confident that we can learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. Scandal is not good yet I will not run from it nor try to cover it up as God already knows our sins and it is He that we must repent to, not the rest of the world.

We must pray for all who are tempted to give in to sinful behavior including all of us. I am not proud of our sins but I am proud to be a Catholic as long as I stay right, with God.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

I don't think I or Dean said anything about being ashamed of being Catholic nor are we any less adherent to the the bishops in matters of faith.

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BobA

"I don't think I or Dean said anything about being ashamed of being Catholic nor are we any less adherent to the the bishops in matters of faith."

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BobA

My statement had nothing to do with what you or Dean said or didn't say.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Sorry.

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BobA

Back in the day, when Fr. Z participated in this forum much more than he now does, he posted a link to the LA Archdiocese which documented a weird, seemingly semi-pagan Mass with Cdl. Mahony celebrating. With that link he invited us to count the number of pictured violations of the GIRM, etc. we could find. There were many indeed.

Since then I have not had a very good opinion of Cdl. Mahony as a pastor. (I read somewhere later that he didn't really set out to mislead his flock - he just wasn't personally strong enough to do more than have a "go along to get along" method of dealing with the more "adventurous" members of his archdiocese.

Perhaps, after this plays out, I'll need to revise my opinion, to something similar to that concerning Abp. Weakland.

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Kent Wendler

Kent,

Interesting comparison. Both Mahony and Weakland had very similar ideas on how the liturgy should be celebrated... similarly bad ideas.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Not surprised, at all. He was my Bishop. Not too excited by his replacement as Bishop, either. I will leave it there.

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-Lou (Louis)

ORA et LABORA
Totus Tuus
Cacciatore/Fungaiolo

In my opinion, the overall theme to recognize is that of the corruption of men in every sinful way -not the Church. The corruption evidenced in the case of sex abuse (including any cover up or any evil(s) that directly sprung from it) should not be viewed as an isolated case of just sex abuse but rather as a symptom of the corruption. Evil established a foothold and has no doubt made use of every opportunity and venue possible to expand its foothold. The 'housecleaning' has only just begun.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I'm not sure I see a causal relationship between liberal liturgical practices and political positions and misguided willingness to protect the reputation of the church while endangering children. I remember that some of the prelates accused of similar misconduct had stellar records of orthodoxy and liturgical loyalty.

We all sin. All of us.

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

While I agree that suggesting a causal relationship is going too far, it does seem there exists a correlation.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I thought it was a given: Conservative are by definition always orthodox, moral and righteous. And of course liberals are the opposite.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I don't know who around here holds that opinion.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I consider myself a conservative both politically and religiously but I am far from "always" anything especially orthodox, moral or righteous; I don't believe anyone is "always" anything, if I did I would not have returned to the faith.

The problem I have with this case and similar others is not the lapse of Christian judgement and behavior by persons in such high Church authority; it is the premeditated, persistent, collaborative long-term practice of such abhorrent behavior conspired upon by multiple authority figures. I have to draw a line between an individual impulsive act and one in which seriously flawed judgement is perpetrated for years upon the very community that places it's entire faith in the perpetrator(s); in which seriously flawed judgement injures children and endangers even greater numbers of children and finally; in which the authority of the Church is used to hide the behavior, perpetuate the lies and degrade if not destroy the faith of so many in the Church. The ultimate injury is the promotion of such authority figures to an even higher level of authority by the Church.

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BobA

As I recall Cardinal Mahoney was regarded as the successor to Cardinal Bernadin as promoter of the American Church and the Seamless Garment.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Yup

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-Lou (Louis)

ORA et LABORA
Totus Tuus
Cacciatore/Fungaiolo

In my opinion, there is a correlation between error and more error, sin and more sin. That is the point I made.

As well, sin promotes evil -the causal relationship self evident to all but the moral relative crowd.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

The leftist ideology promotes evil -period. Rather than attempt to advance a political agenda by way of arguing that there is no difference between conservative and liberal ideology by using men as the measure (much as the enemies of the Church use men to disparage the Church) I would suggest that evil is and remains the enemy that corrupts -an enemy that remains very present still among us.

‘Monsignor Meth’: Priest Accused of Drug Dealing, Having Sex in Church Rectory

-small excerpt:

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

David,



I was simply positing a correlation (at least anecdotally) between the incidence of liturgical abuse and a certain class of other abuses. The thought seemed quite natural as Mahony and Weakland had both been mentioned in the same breath.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The more I think about information being uncovered and released the more I wonder if and how these activities could have been carried out in isolation; are we going to learn of collaboration among dioceses next? When all this broke a few years ago I was ready to support the position that the Church was being attacked unfairly. The slow-reveal of information, the nature of the information and the apparent lack of solid defense by the Church has me changing my position.

We are, at lest I am in for a very long healing process indeed.

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BobA

I would be truly shocked if there was a collaboration and any conspiracy was found, In my opinion, what seems evident is simply individual failings that entail cooperation with the world, many times well intentioned, that in effect stood in and resulted in opposition and damage to the mission of the Church.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

So? Wouldn't you say that his actions define him as a "leftist"?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Has anyone looked at the list of bishops accused of covering up these monstrous acts and compared them to their orthodoxy to see if there's a connection?

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Jeff Stevens

Wouldn't these types of acts be unorthodox in themselves, or a the very least a symptom of unorthodoxy?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I never pondered such a question nor have I looked into his politics.

My point was twofold -ONE: that the Church still has much work ahead to get things in order --TWO: that individual sin is the problem and that it tends to beget more sin -promote more corruption, much as one splashing in a mud puddle would tend to spread mud around. It can be implied by what I write that those who engage in sin would tend to prefer to be accepted by others e.g. birds of a feather tend to flock together and as such, those who engage in certain activities and or promote certain activities themselves would tend to favor an ideology and or political party that promoted the same. However, I STRESS that in my opinion, the veracity of any action and or ideological posit should always be measured against the the truth as the Church teaches and NOT as a result of a moral relative rational deduction for instance comparing political affiliations of an individual with the sins of an individual.

In the purest and simplest sense -my definition of leftism is primarily that of an ideology that is collectivist in nature that promotes collective control over individuals. The injustices associated with leftism are more a necessary and inevitable result of the flawed ideology being put into practice RATHER than the intended goals of the ideology.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,



I wouldn't. It seems natural to me that when bishops gather and discuss the issues they face that these specific problems would come up and there would be a collective discussion of how to handle it. It's hard to imagine they all (they being those bishops who are guilty) came up with the same plan of handling it individually and without consultation with brother bishops. I wonder if there was a single bishop who argued forcefully for doing the right thing. I do not understand how it can be that any decent person not immediately have the thought of contacting the police upon discovering such a crime. The presence of these center(s) for treating priest of alcoholism, mental disorders in general and pedophile seems indicative of a widespread agreement together as to how these matters should be handled.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

My parish is the home parish of Cardinal Mahony and he moved in after retiring (one of the bungalows the parish maintains behind the rectory was remodeled to enlarge it for him). Prior to moving in, an elderly man started to walk up and down the sidewalk in front of church with a sign that said, "phony Mahony". He eventually disappeared after the Cardinal moved in but he was back last Sunday. I wonder what his story is but not enough to want to engage in a conversation.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Let me add some detail that was only implied with my thoughts posted. My reference to "individual failings that entail cooperation with the world" is where I suggest the primary error may lie as far as what may appear apparent collaboration promoting evil. I make a distinction between Bishops collaborating in an evil agenda and Bishops collaborating with others that may in effect collaborate with evil. In my opinion, this 'problem' has become more and more pronounced as the Bishops under pressure from the world have relinquished more and more territory to the world and became but detached administrators relying more and more on experts and assistance from 'helpers' grounded in the world to handle the details RATHER than instead relying on subordinates grounded in the Church.

Here is one example of such relinquished territory -marriage counseling at one time was done primarily by a Priest -today it is primarily done by a world certified 'counselor' who more than likely is not grounded in the Church -with in some cases disastrous results the norm rather than the exception...

Recently it has become clear that there are forces who seek to limit religious liberty to only the area of worship and as such prohibit all religious practices that extend beyond prayer. Well, these forces did not just appear yesterday -[they] have been working for quite some time and have been effective as evidenced by what territory has been abandoned already without much fanfare.

This territory must be reclaimed.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Maybe someone can clear this up for me...

Isn't sin, by its very nature, unorthodox? Wouldn't a Catholic who is a habitual sinner have to be in some sense unorthodox? And wouldn't a Catholic who promotes and supports sin, by words or deeds also have to be unorthodox?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I think I agree with that but does one have to be orthodox to sin? Protestants are unorthodox by my understanding of Catholicism yet they sin and I've always heard of Catholics who are habitual sinners referred to as obstinate rather than unorthodox.

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BobA

DAvid, based on the definitions I find on line, example below, I think you are absolutely correct. I was envisioning a narrow definition as pertaining only to the traditions of the ancient Church.

or·tho·dox (ôrth-dks)
adj.
1. Adhering to the accepted or traditional and established faith, especially in religion.
2. Adhering to the Christian faith as expressed in the early Christian ecumenical creeds.
3. Orthodox
a. Of or relating to any of the churches or rites of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
b. Of or relating to Orthodox Judaism.
4. Adhering to what is commonly accepted, customary, or traditional: an orthodox view of world affairs.

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BobA

I have read that after Humanae Vitae bishops were selected for their use of a pastoral approach rather than a judicial approach to sinners. Some of them didn't get the word that this was to be applied to laity using contraceptives. They went ahead and applied it to erring priests.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

No, of course not.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Aren't we all habitual sinners? If not, why the sacrament of reconciliation?

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Good question, Jim. In your mind what is the difference? Is unorthodoxy just one specific kind on sin? Or is sin one kind of unorthodoxy? Or are the two unrelated?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

No analysis? I am not surprised at that. We use and value the facts that boost our preconceived notions and discard those that do not.

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Jeff Stevens

Oh, no, Jeff! Not "We".

Surely you meant to say "They"!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

How exactly would one do that? Without a behavior so unorthodox as to be reported and recorded it would seem only those with personal witness to the bishops' behavior would have a clue, in this case there are records. The abuse of children is certainly unorthodox, any attempt to hide the abuse is certainly unorthodox and any collaboration between parties that leads to a cover up is certainly unorthodox. I don't get the thrust of the orthodoxy question.

The collaboration is more difficult but I understand there were simultaneous cases in Sacramento, Orange County, Los Angeles and San Diego so there is at least a reason to look for any collaboration unless of course one believes wholeheartedly in coincidence.

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BobA

In my opinion, to derive a truth any truth by association and comparison, by rational deduction untethered by a standard -is by definition, moral relativism.

If one does not [fill in the blank] in an orthodox manner as defined by a standard then one does not [fill in the blank] in an orthodox manner -period.

If one engages in the sin of [fill in the blank] as defined by a standard then one engages in the sin of [fill in the blank] -period.

To suggest that the standards can in effect be set aside by comparing for instance [fill in the blank] orthodoxy or unorthodoxy with not engaging in or engaging in the sin of [fill in the blank] is at best irrelevant and at worst supports and promotes an attempt to derive truth via moral relativism.

In my opinion, there is a correlation that suggest sin promotes injustice and more sin. As well, there is a correlation that suggest grace promotes justice and more grace. However, the correlation suggests and implies the promotion of grace and the rejection of sin is to be pursued -NOT the redefinition of either by deriving moral relative 'truth' -such a compromise would blur the division and entail but a path directed toward a false peace that promotes injustice.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

The point is that people are drawing a correlation, and in Daniel's case, a causal relationship, between doctrinal, liturgical, and political heterodoxy and the willingness to cover up abuse of children.

That assumes facts not in evidence; that more "liberal" bishops covered up abuse than "conservative" bishops.

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Jeff Stevens

Sometimes I wonder if we speak the same language. A correlation is made between one thing and another. A correlation does not suggest anything like what you say. You would ASSERT that sin promotes injustice and more sin. I agree. It has notthing to do with correlation. This is why people sometimes have difficulty with what you say, Daniel.

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Jeff Stevens