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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 14:01 
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Kardinal wrote:
bali wrote:
Not to nit-pick but if a criminal had been deterred by a law he/she would not be a criminal. Like I said; laws like locks are designed to keep honest people honest.

I remain convinced that some people do not become criminals in the first place because of laws. That means they won't buy illegal guns. That means they will not have illegal guns when a moment of passion strikes to do something truly foolish. Barriers we put in place to inflict harm on others are good things, on the whole, assuming they are not disproportionate.

bali"I don't know about your neck of the woods but it is not a problem buying a firearm around here, doesn't require VERY much dedication at all.

Really? Have you tried to buy an illegal firearm? What was your experience?

I do note that very few crimes are committed with fully automatic weapons, RPG's, tanks, or artillery. I wonder why that is, if criminals would get them anyway...

[quote="bali wrote:
given a real need I can inflict a tremendous amount of damage nearly as fast with a bolt or lever-action hunting rifle, a pump shotgun or a revolver.

You cannot do as much damage with a bolt action or lever action rifle as a semi automatic. If you could, the world's armies would never have upgraded to semi-automatic weapons because for many years bolt action weapons were much more accurate. A revolver is inherently limited to 8 rounds, usually less. That means more reloads, more time between reloads, which translates to less havoc and more opportunity for people to escape or overpower a shooter.

Usually people committing crimes with firearms are untrained and unpracticed. If they are trained or practiced, it is minimal. The weapon is frequently a limiting factor on damage.

bali wrote:
Banning a style of weapon will merely drive the criminals to another style of weapon.

True. We banned automatic weapons (practically) and they simply use semi-automatic weapons. This leads to a precedent that if we ban semi-automatic weapons, they will switch to bolts, levers, and pumps. We ban those, they switch to single-shot. And with each, they do less damage.

bali wrote:
We must find a solution to the psychological and cultural problems to solve this, banning the tool is not going to get us very far.

Of course. Restrictions on guns are not THE answer. We have to change the culture. But changing the law is likely to take far less time than changing the culture. And nothing says we can't do both.[/quote]

I have no need to buy illegal weapons but I have bought a couple through private sales in the past from people I knew and strangers as well so they were not be registered, there is no law requiring the reporting of such sales in my state. I'm no longer a safe gun handler due to physical impairments so I have sold my high-power guns privately to people I know well.

The problem with semi-auto and even worse, full-auto weapons is that the shooter often tends to get careless. What I can take down in one shot I have watched semi-auto shooters waste several rounds on.

My pump shotgun holds 6 rounds including one chambered unless used for hunting when it is restricted by state law to three rounds, a rod is placed in the magazine to limit capacity. My bolt rifles held 5 rounds in the magazine, one could hold an additional round chambered and my revolvers all held 6 rounds and could be reloaded surprising fast with a speed loader which inserts all 6 rounds at once. Unlike combat situations, personal or home defense is usually against one or two assailants so frequent reloading is not an issue. I agree that some maniac wanting to inflict as many casualties as possible in a theater, mall or school would have a big advantage with a high-capacity semi-auto.

All this is a bit off the subject; I've been reading the Democratic Rhetoric on their intentions in January, providing they get the votes in both houses. It sounds like legitimate gun owners are going to pay heavily for the actions of a couple of crazies.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 08:09 
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Let's not forget that this idiot in CT stole these guns from his mother. Criminal don't obey the laws of the land, thus they are called criminals. If guns are to be illegal in the United States, then who will have the guns? Criminals and not the law biding citizens.

2,976 people died in the September 11 attack. Not one gun was used. The murderers used box cutter and airplanes.

The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, including 19 children under the age of 6. Not one gun was used. The killers used a rental truck, fertilizer, and nitro methane.

This is a very touchy subject, but I fully support the 2nd Amendment.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 09:23 
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Perry wrote:
Let's not forget that this idiot in CT stole these guns from his mother. Criminal don't obey the laws of the land, thus they are called criminals. If guns are to be illegal in the United States, then who will have the guns? Criminals and not the law biding citizens.

There is no discussion of "ban guns". And as I described earlier, it is also not so simple as "If you make it a crime to have a gun, only criminals will have guns."

Please read the whole thread. It has been discussed. I would be interested in your thoughts on the subtleties and complexities under discussion.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 10:32 
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Kardinal wrote:
Perry wrote:
Let's not forget that this idiot in CT stole these guns from his mother. Criminal don't obey the laws of the land, thus they are called criminals. If guns are to be illegal in the United States, then who will have the guns? Criminals and not the law biding citizens.

There is no discussion of "ban guns". And as I described earlier, it is also not so simple as "If you make it a crime to have a gun, only criminals will have guns."

Please read the whole thread. It has been discussed. I would be interested in your thoughts on the subtleties and complexities under discussion.


To some extent there would be a large new class of criminals; those who would not surrender their firearms. Remember, there is no national mandatory registration program for private sales, some states like mine do require registration and background checks for Gun Show purchases, so those guns that are not registered would not likely be handed over if there was some confiscation attempt. Even cynical old me doesn't anticipate any form of confiscation, there will likely be several voluntary programs to turn in guns for some trivial reward.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 12:32 
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Kardinal wrote:
Perry wrote:
Let's not forget that this idiot in CT stole these guns from his mother. Criminal don't obey the laws of the land, thus they are called criminals. If guns are to be illegal in the United States, then who will have the guns? Criminals and not the law biding citizens.

There is no discussion of "ban guns". And as I described earlier, it is also not so simple as "If you make it a crime to have a gun, only criminals will have guns."

Please read the whole thread. It has been discussed. I would be interested in your thoughts on the subtleties and complexities under discussion.


These are my thoughts on the subject. And .... ????

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 14:34 
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Bob A,

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Even cynical old me doesn't anticipate any form of confiscation, there will likely be several voluntary programs to turn in guns for some trivial reward.


In the Australian buy-back program owners surrendering their newly banned weapons were paid the fair market value. Curiously, some of the surrendered guns found their way into the black market and were later used in the commission of crimes.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 15:22 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Bob A,

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Even cynical old me doesn't anticipate any form of confiscation, there will likely be several voluntary programs to turn in guns for some trivial reward.


In the Australian buy-back program owners surrendering their newly banned weapons were paid the fair market value. Curiously, some of the surrendered guns found their way into the black market and were later used in the commission of crimes.


At one time such guns were destroyed, not so sure the "choice" ones would today. I'd like any such program to record serial numbers and information on the ones turning them in then check stolen gun records, maybe they could nab a few felons as well as weapons. What I still have are black powder muzzle-loaders and of no value either to the cops or criminals.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 16:35 
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bali wrote:
... What I still have are black powder muzzle-loaders and of no value either to the cops or criminals.
Many years ago, a friend let me take some shots with a fifty caliber muzzle loader from the Civil War.

We used balls he had made from old lead clock weights. Seeing what they did to 4-6" diameter trees, I would rather be hit by something more modern.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 18:45 
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gabriel wrote:
bali wrote:
... What I still have are black powder muzzle-loaders and of no value either to the cops or criminals.
Many years ago, a friend let me take some shots with a fifty caliber muzzle loader from the Civil War.

We used balls he had made from old lead clock weights. Seeing what they did to 4-6" diameter trees, I would rather be hit by something more modern.


I have two .54 cal and one .45 cal; at a full "hunting load" of around 100 to 120 grains and a patched round ball those .54's will take down an elk at 100 yds but the .45 is too light for anything but a deer at 65 yds or less. Each rifle is surprisingly sensitive to the load and it took a while to dial them in. I can use the same paper target aimpoint at 50 yds and 100 yds simply by adjusting the load.

The lead round ball tends to stay intact and imparts all it's energy forward in a cone starting at the impact site where the modern stuff tends to mushroom, tumble and fragment doing more damage so the target zone on big game is smaller for a round ball than modern ammo.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 19:24 
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Kardinal wrote:
Please read the whole thread. It has been discussed. I would be interested in your thoughts on the subtleties and complexities under discussion.


There are many subtleties and complexities involved with the murder of innocents through abortion as well as the were many subtleties and complexities involved with the Nazis exterminating the Jews. Overcoming subtleties and complexities in the pursuit of evil means for some supposed Utopian end is something the leftists excel in.

Taking away the inalienable right to self defense is evil -period.

There are some such as myself that consider the inalienable right to life and that which necessarily extends from it; the right to self defense; to be beyond discussion and not something to be compromised upon.

There is no middle ground. The right to KEEP & BEAR arms is specifically detailed in the Constitution.

Obama still investigates the "subtleties and complexities" in Benghazi YET he already capitalizes upon and acts on the very recent horrific massacre of children?

What of the fort hood shooting -this still classified as workplace violence -what has Obama done YET to solve that supposed nothing whatsoever to do with Muslim radicals problem?

Despite the ignorance and innocence of any useful idiots promoting this latest assault on individual rights there are two sides to this issue -one side is premised upon reality and inalienable principle and one side is premised at best upon an epically flawed Utopian ideology that has been responsible for the murder of millions...

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 19:33 
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dlm wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
Please read the whole thread. It has been discussed. I would be interested in your thoughts on the subtleties and complexities under discussion.


There are many subtleties and complexities involved with the murder of innocents through abortion as well as the were many subtleties and complexities involved with the Nazis exterminating the Jews. Overcoming subtleties and complexities in the pursuit of evil means for some supposed Utopian end is something the leftists excel in.

Taking away the inalienable right to self defense is evil -period.

There are some such as myself that consider the inalienable right to life and that which necessarily extends from it; the right to self defense; to be beyond discussion and not something to be compromised upon.

There is no middle ground. The right to KEEP & BEAR arms is specifically detailed in the Constitution.

Obama still investigates the "subtleties and complexities" in Benghazi YET he already capitalizes upon and acts on the very recent horrific massacre of children?

What of the fort hood shooting -this still classified as workplace violence -what has Obama done YET to solve that supposed nothing whatsoever to do with Muslim radicals problem?

Despite the ignorance and innocence of any useful idiots promoting this latest assault on individual rights there are two sides to this issue -one side is premised upon reality and inalienable principle and one side is premised at best upon an epically flawed Utopian ideology that has been responsible for the murder of millions...

There was no discussion removing the right to self defense. None.

As for middle ground, you're already standing on it. You can't buy a 20mm rifle.

Thankfully we have the Tea Party to ignore the actual issue, hide behind rhetoric and self-delusion, and ignore reality and evidence. They'll keep us safe from the liberal boogeyman.

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Last edited by Kardinal on 20 Dec 2012 19:37, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 19:34 
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gabriel wrote:
bali wrote:
... What I still have are black powder muzzle-loaders and of no value either to the cops or criminals.
Many years ago, a friend let me take some shots with a fifty caliber muzzle loader from the Civil War.

We used balls he had made from old lead clock weights. Seeing what they did to 4-6" diameter trees, I would rather be hit by something more modern.

While I would very much not like to be hit by either one, I'd probably take a 54 caliber black powder over a 30 caliber 308 or 30-06. The energy of a modern 30 cal is MASSIVE.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 19:43 
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Kardinal wrote:
There was no discussion removing the right to self defense. None.

As for middle ground, you're already standing on it. You can't buy a 20mm rifle.

Thankfully we have the Tea Party to ignore the actual issue, hide behind rhetoric and self-delusion, and ignore reality and evidence. They'll keep us safe from the liberal boogeyman.


Well you can pretend there is no evil component in that being promoted by the left on numerous fronts. You can as well disparage the Tea Party. Finally, you can claim there is middle ground by employing arguments similar to "abortion is the law of the land" argument.

What exactly is Catholic about these arguments? It seems political to me -quite leftist in fact.

The left is arrogant -in fact one must be arrogant to even think they can do away with God.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 19:48 
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dlm wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
Please read the whole thread. It has been discussed. I would be interested in your thoughts on the subtleties and complexities under discussion.


There are many subtleties and complexities involved with the murder of innocents through abortion as well as the were many subtleties and complexities involved with the Nazis exterminating the Jews. Overcoming subtleties and complexities in the pursuit of evil means for some supposed Utopian end is something the leftists excel in.

Taking away the inalienable right to self defense is evil -period.

There are some such as myself that consider the inalienable right to life and that which necessarily extends from it; the right to self defense; to be beyond discussion and not something to be compromised upon.

There is no middle ground. The right to KEEP & BEAR arms is specifically detailed in the Constitution..

Perhaps the deaths of innocent children is just the price we have to pay to maintain our liberty?

BTW, the Constitution makes no mention of guns specifically. "Arms" includes everything from knives to bombs, and a lot in between.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 20:02 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
In the Australian buy-back program owners surrendering their newly banned weapons were paid the fair market value. Curiously, some of the surrendered guns found their way into the black market and were later used in the commission of crimes.


I'm curious. How would someone determine "fair market value" for something in which there is no longer legal trade or even grandfathered ownership? Original purchase price? Price of closest equivalent product that remains legal? Last free market price before it was banned?

bali wrote:
At one time such guns were destroyed, not so sure the "choice" ones would today. I'd like any such program to record serial numbers and information on the ones turning them in then check stolen gun records, maybe they could nab a few felons as well as weapons.


Some places still do destroy the guns. I don't know if the "no questions asked" nature of these turn-in programs precludes authorities from examining the received weapons to see if they match any evidence in open investigations.


Slight digression.

There was a news story just a couple of weeks ago, couldn't find it now when I googled. I want to say it happened in Connecticut, maybe Hartford or New Haven, but can't remember for sure.

Woman cleaning out her family home after Dad passed away finds old rifle he had (souvenir he brought home from WWII Europe). Having no use for it, she brings it to a police turn-in program. This particular program logs in all the guns and then throws them in a smelter in fairly short order. The two officers are to some extent gun buffs and quickly realize there's something special about this rife. It seems that it was a Nazi rifle, a model that was the first production model full-automatic rifle, issued to a limited number of troops, the precursor to the AK-47, very rare today.

The officers tell her that, even non-functioning, it would be worth something to a real collector - definitely worth more that the coupon for sneakers or whatever. If they accepted it for the program they were obligated to destroy it. Nice guys that they were, they agreed to hold it temporarily for her in the Department's weapon locker while she finds an expert to appraise it.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 22:25 
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LASaxman wrote:
Perhaps the deaths of innocent children is just the price we have to pay to maintain our liberty?


Having an arrogant leftist opportunist promoter of evil as President is the price I pay daily because useful idiots enjoy the same liberties I do. This 'discussion' simply the latest opportunity being exploited by leftists...

I would argue that their deaths are directly and indirectly a result of leftist policies created by man RATHER than liberty endowed all by God.

The deaths of innocent children is not something to be exploited to premise the promotion of more evil. Our liberty is God given -not evil at all; regardless, some may perpetrate evil.

The killer was mentally deranged and medicated with drugs that probably contributed to his irrational state of mind -he broke any number of laws in quite a gun restrictive area of the country to perpetrate the senseless carnage -there is no rational reason WHY. YET Obama has an answer or suggests there is an answer to this problem -a problem as old as humanity itself. One just has to look at how well Chicago is doing with gun crime prevention to see the leftist prescription for the ills of society is a message devoid of truth delivered by a false messiah that promotes evil and calls it good.

LASaxman wrote:
BTW, the Constitution makes no mention of guns specifically. "Arms" includes everything from knives to bombs, and a lot in between.


You are correct -it as well does not mention hunting -nor licensing...

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2012 23:20 
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dlm wrote:
This 'discussion' simply the latest opportunity being exploited by leftists...


Gun control and the liberal id

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Philosophically, the Second Amendment is a hated repudiation of everything collectivists believe about the proper relationship between citizens and the all-powerful State. The concept of private firearms as a bulwark against tyranny insults them, because they believe nobody should think about maternal, coercive leftist government that way, not even in the abstract.

The more immediate and practical use of legal firearms for self-defense is also an insult to the State – an accusation that benevolent government cannot adequately protect its citizens. You’re supposed to let the agents of the State defend you from criminals, not take matters into your own hands. Frankly, you little people are just too damned stupid to be entrusted with deadly force. You can’t live any aspect of your lives without maternal government assistance, so how can you be trusted to defend your own life?

Personal responsibility is the antithesis of the nanny state, and gun ownership is among the most powerful expressions of such responsibility. Gun owners often see it that way themselves – it has hardly escaped the notice of liberals that Gadsden flags tend to erupt from large gatherings of gun enthusiasts. Right now, the news is filled with reports of gun sales skyrocketing, due to apprehension over the possibility of new gun control legislation. Liberals read headlines like that and seethe. It reeks of anarchy to them.

The Left views government as the primary agency of moral action. It “solves” problems by passing laws. Agitating for problem-solving laws is an easy way to express moral supremacy, and in this case, for liberals who don’t personally own guns – or who, like most of the high-level politicians and opinion makers, enjoy armed security protection – it’s completely cost-free. It’s a nice, simple equation: call for banning some types of gun, or all of them, and you’re “good.” Everyone else is callous and evil. People who try to introduce actual facts into the discussion are vilified with gusto, because they dare to introduce icy logic into an emotional, moral crusade… they want to talk, when it’s clearly time for action! It’s an attitude that curdles quickly into the kind of blind hatred that liberals normally congratulate themselves for opposing, because it’s so shallow.

And let’s face it: a blanket pass to scream insults at people you don’t like – justified with a plea that You Care So Very Much and It’s All For the Children – is great fun, and very cathartic. It’s no surprise that a wide range of other issues swiftly creep into these tirades, and soon the gun zealot is, like filmmaker Michael Moore, describing opposition to socialized medicine as the moral equivalent of murder. The Left has a great deal of anger to vent. There’s a lot of pressure built up behind that gun-control valve.


I predict the leftists overreach right now and as [they] begin screaming louder 'its for the children' many more will see and realize this as but another power grab and see them clearly for what they truly promote -a collectivist mob ruled government imposed tyranny devoid of God.

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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2012 13:25 
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Wow Daniel,

I guess I would be one of those "leftist liberals". I personally do not see the need for weapons. However, I know I am blessed to not have encountered a situation that would have ignited my anger to the point were I would feel the need to arm myself. If I had maybe I would think differently?

Someone early within this tread pointed out our fascination with violence and the lack of respect for life. Movie makers know that you simply need a story that graphically depicts violence, sex and profanity and their on there way to box office success with good Christian folks at the front of the line. I am certain this has helps to propagate the lack of respect and hostility we so easily express to our fellow man.

I also wonder about the argument that if the guns are taken away, only the bad guys will have it? In most of these tragic cases, wasn't the gun properly registered and just used by somebody that snapped? Many times it appears that it was just a matter of easy access to a weapon and the perpetrator decided it was the way to solve their problem. You heard the news coverage before; they were good neighbors, won't harm a fly!

Protection against tyranny? I don't think so. Most gun owners I have encountered would have their best chances of protection by barricading themselves in their home. Simply because they are not conditioned to go up a flight of stairs much less encounter any type of combat. Therefore, all we are creating is a stand off and you know the eventual results.

Gun control? I agree with an early comment comparing it to the days of prohibition. I think we are just so embedded in violence that we would just go online and purchase them from an overseas source. Yes, "good" people will be doing it as well. Therefore, without curbing our appetite for violence, it's just not going to be effective.

In conclusion, my prayers go out to those that have lost someone in a gun related tragedy. If you ever encountered someone that experience a lost due to a drunk driver, you know the hostility they feel to those that are so casual with alcohol.

Sadly, these stories are escalating and becoming common occurrences.

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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2012 14:53 
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Leo,

I respect your views, but, I do disagree with them. The Constitution of the United States guarantees me the Right to Bear arms. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of the discussion.

This cretin that shot up the school last Friday, broke the Law over 40 times before he shot himself. Do you really think that yet another law would have mattered?

I cry for the families that lost their loved ones, but taking away the rights of US Citizens will not bring them back, nor will it likely keep things like this from happening again.

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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2012 14:54 
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BobC wrote:
I respect your views, but, I do disagree with them. The Constitution of the United States guarantees me the Right to Bear arms. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of the discussion.

Easy to say.

Does that mean anyone over the age of 18 should be able to mount a Ma Deuce on their car?

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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2012 15:03 
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Kardinal wrote:
BobC wrote:
I respect your views, but, I do disagree with them. The Constitution of the United States guarantees me the Right to Bear arms. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of the discussion.

Easy to say.

Does that mean anyone over the age of 18 should be able to mount a Ma Deuce on their car?

To be clear, I use that example to make it clear that there must be reasonable limits on the ownership and use of weapons. The discussion is not about "no guns" (which I think I've said for the fifth time in this thread, and I wonder if anyone is hearing it), but about where those reasonable limits are.

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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2012 15:06 
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dlm wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
There was no discussion removing the right to self defense. None.

As for middle ground, you're already standing on it. You can't buy a 20mm rifle.

Thankfully we have the Tea Party to ignore the actual issue, hide behind rhetoric and self-delusion, and ignore reality and evidence. They'll keep us safe from the liberal boogeyman.


Well you can pretend there is no evil component in that being promoted by the left on numerous fronts. You can as well disparage the Tea Party. Finally, you can claim there is middle ground by employing arguments similar to "abortion is the law of the land" argument.

What exactly is Catholic about these arguments? It seems political to me -quite leftist in fact.

The left is arrogant -in fact one must be arrogant to even think they can do away with God.

Well, you can pretend you're actually representing my views accurately, too. You can also lie about me that I think anything of an "abortion is the law of the land" argument. Since both are untrue, they're calumny.

Calling me a leftist is also untrue, and thus calumny.

"The left" does not wish to do away with God on the whole. There are quite godly people "on the left", certainly as you would describe them. In fact, our bishops take positions that you've described as "leftist". Do they too wish to do away with God?

You're on a roll, Daniel.

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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2012 15:14 
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Kardinal wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
BobC wrote:
I respect your views, but, I do disagree with them. The Constitution of the United States guarantees me the Right to Bear arms. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of the discussion.

Easy to say.

Does that mean anyone over the age of 18 should be able to mount a Ma Deuce on their car?

To be clear, I use that example to make it clear that there must be reasonable limits on the ownership and use of weapons. The discussion is not about "no guns" (which I think I've said for the fifth time in this thread, and I wonder if anyone is hearing it), but about where those reasonable limits are.



Jeff,

I think we are "Hearing you" but at least for me, I don't believe it. This administrations aim is to eliminate every gun from every home...I believed that when he was first elected, and even more so when he was re-elected. I think that you and I exchanged messages on this in some medium, here or maybe FB.

I hope I am wrong but I do believe it's what they want.

Also I am well aware of the "Reasonable restrictions" and I am also aware that common citizens can not own fully automatic weapons without special licensing. Aside from that a Ma Deuce is just too heavy!

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BobC wrote:
I think we are "Hearing you" but at least for me, I don't believe it. This administrations aim is to eliminate every gun from every home...I believed that when he was first elected, and even more so when he was re-elected. I think that you and I exchanged messages on this in some medium, here or maybe FB.

But no one is saying that. You're arguing with me, Perry, and Leo as if *WE* want to take away *ALL* guns.

I don't think the administration has shown any interest in taking away all guns, but it is certainly a possibility and we'll have to see what proposals come out of the commission.

BobC wrote:
Also I am well aware of the "Reasonable restrictions" and I am also aware that common citizens can not own fully automatic weapons without special licensing. Aside from that a Ma Deuce is just too heavy!

Right. So it's not as simple as "The Constitution of the United States guarantees me the Right to Bear arms. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of the discussion." It's more complicated than that; no fully automatic weapons. No mortars. No grenades and grenade launchers.

So it may be reasonable to extend that to magazine capacities. I would oppose any other restrictions.

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Received these today in an email from a friend, a couple here will think them silly, others will realize the truth:

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."
~Thomas Jefferson

"Those who trade liberty for security have neither."
~ John Adams

Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.

Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

Know guns, know peace, know safety.
No guns, no peace, no safety.

You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

Assault is a behavior, not a device.

64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.

The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.

What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you NOT understand?

Guns have only two enemies; rust and politicians.

When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.

The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.

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I agree this discussions is not about "no guns" or taking away guns, but rather
limiting the TYPE and POWER of certain guns, which is a very sensible and responsible thing to do.

The irony of course is that today the NRA's solution = MORE GUNS


*Shaking my head*


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IndianaJ wrote:
I agree this discussions is not about "no guns" or taking away guns, but rather
limiting the TYPE and POWER of certain guns, which is a very sensible and responsible thing to do.

The irony of course is that today the NRA's solution = MORE GUNS


*Shaking my head*


What the NRA said is; we can't without a doubt prevent guns from entering schools so we should at least station police in the schools for protection. That is hardly a call for "more guns" it is a call for what everyone is demanding from the government; "protect us".

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Daniel,

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There are many subtleties and complexities involved with the murder of innocents through abortion as well as the were many subtleties and complexities involved with the Nazis exterminating the Jews.


Could you please enumerate the "subtleties and complexities" of murdering the unborn? What is "subtle" about murdering Jews? What has either to do with gun control?

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Rob,

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I'm curious. How would someone determine "fair market value" for something in which there is no longer legal trade or even grandfathered ownership? Original purchase price? Price of closest equivalent product that remains legal? Last free market price before it was banned?


I believe it was the last free market price before it was banned. The Australian Constitution requires that it be free market value when any property is taken by the federal government.

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bali wrote:
The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.


I have owned and still own firearms. I don't hunt anymore due to encroaching arthritis and just a general decline in my interest in hunting

But I have a 12 gauge 1959 Remington pump that has dropped many pheasant, quail and lesser quantities of dove and prairie chicken (those suckers are FAST!) and busted many blue rock at trap shoots that came under my pretty accurate eye and steady hand up until 30 years or so ago. My 1918 model Eddystone English bolt action 30.06 caliber sniper's rifle (purchased in the early 1960s from a cosmoline-covered batch just in to a Kansas City, Kansas forerunner to stores such as WalMart called "Jubilee City") has mostly been been used by my oldest son, the deer slayer before he bought his own big game rifle. I've never hunted deer with a rifle — my weapon of choice has been the camera. But I've certainly fired many rounds from that Eddystone at paper targets fastened to a hay bale at the base of a cliff in isolated areas in the country. I have a 22 long rifle, 16 shot pump that has put many a squirrel in a stew pot!

They sit today in my closet, cleaned, oiled and covered. Though they may never be fired again in my lifetime (certainly, not likely by me), I have no intention of giving them up to anyone other than my own progeny, who I hope will pass them on to their progeny until the stocks weather check and the metal on the active parts wears thin.

The three paragraphs above are here to establish my position on the banning of firearms. It should never happen in America!

I agree with those who think we should at least take a look at why firearms that can fire dozens of rounds a minute are so easily obtainable by unstable people.

Bob B. is absolutely correct in his assertion that the American Revolution would have never occurred had there been firearms control.

But attempts at comparing Revolutionary America with 21st Century American is comparing apples and oranges.

At the time of the American Revolution, when 90% of the population lived in rural areas and a significant proportion of that 90% lived on the frontier, where survival often depended on being able to supplement a poor harvest with game killed with a rifle and/or being able to defend yourself against Indian tribes that viewed homesteaders as encroaching on their traditional lands, the question of gun control would never have arisen. The gun, like the plow, was a most necessary tool in the above environment.

Not so today. For most of us in modern society, neither plow nor firearm is a necessary tool. I loved upland game bird hunting. I've done my share of rabbit and squirrel hunting. My son loves to hunt deer, squirrel and rabbit. So does his son.

But not one of those mornings, arising before dawn to quietly sneak to a blind or a patch of milo in sometimes sub-zero temperatures, there to spend cold hours awaiting our quarry were done to keep our families from going hungry. Though we certainly cooked, ate and enjoyed very much the game we procured, we would have eaten well without the deer, pheasant, quail and rabbit.

Not so that outland farmer in 1775. Often, his quiet stalk made the difference between eating and going hungry on cold February day.

In the nearly 74 years I've been walking around the woods and prairies of this country, I've never fired a weapon in anger or self defense or to kill anything I wasn't planning to eat.

Those folks on the 18th century American frontier had to do that on a regular basis.

So there are dramatic differences in the uses to which we put our firearms today and the absolutely vital purpose they had in young American.

So I will listen as objectively as my values, which are those of a Catholic, God-Loving Christian, who openly admits he enjoys owning and firing weapons, permit me to those who offer their proposals to reduce violence. If there proposals have merit, I will consider support them.

If they are disguised attempts to remove firearms from conscientious Americans, I will resist such efforts as vigorously and as effectively as I can!

And one aside: If you peruse my words above, you will not find the use of the word "gun" anywhere. The terms weapon, firearm, pistol, rifle are used.

There's a reason for that! I am a former active duty Marine. Those of you out there who are also former or active Jarheads know why, don't you!

I'm thankful that I wasn't the boot in our platoon who called his M-1 a "gun"! Even into the darkening night, we could hear him on the little grinder, say "This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for fightin', this is . . ."

Occasionally, we'd hear Junior DI Sergeant Necker shout out the open duty hut door, "I can't hear you!"

Nobody in the platoon had the nerve to check to be sure the poor guy was standing in the position Sgt. Necker had ordered.

And nobody in the platoon ever called an M-1 a 'gun' again . . . and I would not be surprised if that has held true through these intervening 55 years. :)

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....for fun.


Heard that little ditty a time or two myself.

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BobC wrote:
....for fun.


Heard that little ditty a time or two myself.

:) I'll bet you have, Bob! :wink:

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Kardinal wrote:
BobC wrote:
I think we are "Hearing you" but at least for me, I don't believe it. This administrations aim is to eliminate every gun from every home...I believed that when he was first elected, and even more so when he was re-elected. I think that you and I exchanged messages on this in some medium, here or maybe FB.

But no one is saying that. You're arguing with me, Perry, and Leo as if *WE* want to take away *ALL* guns.

I don't think the administration has shown any interest in taking away all guns, but it is certainly a possibility and we'll have to see what proposals come out of the commission.

BobC wrote:
Also I am well aware of the "Reasonable restrictions" and I am also aware that common citizens can not own fully automatic weapons without special licensing. Aside from that a Ma Deuce is just too heavy!

Right. So it's not as simple as "The Constitution of the United States guarantees me the Right to Bear arms. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of the discussion." It's more complicated than that; no fully automatic weapons. No mortars. No grenades and grenade launchers.

So it may be reasonable to extend that to magazine capacities. I would oppose any other restrictions.


Jeff,

I believe that Grenade Launchers and Mortars might be considered light Artillery, rather then arms. :roll:

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IndianaJ wrote:
I agree this discussions is not about "no guns" or taking away guns, but rather
limiting the TYPE and POWER of certain guns, which is a very sensible and responsible thing to do.

The irony of course is that today the NRA's solution = MORE GUNS


*Shaking my head*



I did not see that the NRA wanted more guns, what they suggested was armed Law Enforcement Officers at all schools. And it is a very good idea.

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Leo wrote:

Protection against tyranny? I don't think so. Most gun owners I have encountered would have their best chances of protection by barricading themselves in their home.
Reading this made me think of Jews cowering in hiding in Nazi Germany and wonder, if the Jews had been armed when the Nazis were trying to exterminate them, would things have turned out differently? Were the kulaks first disarmed before millions of them were starved and frozen to death by Stalin's coercive state? I don't know, but I think it would be better if the state were unarmed and the citizens armed.
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The best present day example of a society with strong social controls and weak government controls, a society with plurality of force, is Switzerland. (Kopel, p278- 302) In peacetime the Swiss army has no generals, no central command. Everyone is his own policeman. By no coincidence Switzerland is also the best modern example of the right to bear arms. Almost every house in Switzerland contains one or more automatic weapons, the kind of guns that the American federal government calls “assault rifles with cop killer bullets”. Switzerland has strict gun controls to keep guns out of the hands of children, lunatics and criminals, but every law abiding adult can buy any kind of weapon. Almost every adult male owns at least one gun, and most have more than one, because of social pressures and the expectation that a respectable middle class male citizen should be well armed and skillful in the use of arms. It is also no coincidence that respect for property rights in Switzerland is amongst the highest in the world, possibly the highest in the world. Switzerland also has lower tax levels than any other industrialized country.


http://jim.com/rights.html

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PostPosted: 21 Dec 2012 23:13 
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Rereading the linked article above, this stands out: ". . . the only Koreans who were murdered in the L.A. riots were unarmed. There were no casualties amongst those Koreans who defended their property with gunfire." Talking about the riots of 1992.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 00:01 
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Leo wrote:
Wow Daniel,

I guess I would be one of those "leftist liberals". I personally do not see the need for weapons. However, I know I am blessed to not have encountered a situation that would have ignited my anger to the point were I would feel the need to arm myself. If I had maybe I would think differently?


You personally see no need -am I to assume you comment as to your need or is it as to my need to exercise the inalienable right to self defense how best I see fit?

..."maybe I would think differently"? Regarding what is inalienable? Since when is an inalienable and inherent right something that requires rational basis, justification, or permission from another man or a mob of men to exercise?


Leo wrote:
Someone early within this tread pointed out our fascination with violence and the lack of respect for life. Movie makers know that you simply need a story that graphically depicts violence, sex and profanity and their on there way to box office success with good Christian folks at the front of the line. I am certain this has helps to propagate the lack of respect and hostility we so easily express to our fellow man.


I do not buy into the collective guilt thing and sure as hell do not see it as an authentic premise for anything let alone an inauthentic collective sacrifice or punishment that I am required to participate in. This absurd concept is that which premises another leftist victimhood based agenda --reparations.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 00:08 
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IndianaJ wrote:
I agree this discussions is not about "no guns" or taking away guns, but rather
limiting the TYPE and POWER of certain guns, which is a very sensible and responsible thing to do.


You state that it is sensible and responsible; however, there is nothing sensible and responsible about it.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 00:21 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Daniel,

Quote:
There are many subtleties and complexities involved with the murder of innocents through abortion as well as the were many subtleties and complexities involved with the Nazis exterminating the Jews.


Could you please enumerate the "subtleties and complexities" of murdering the unborn? What is "subtle" about murdering Jews? What has either to do with gun control?


Lets start with what those perpetrating such evil tend to term things such as the two examples I cited -they call them something other than what they are to avoid them being identified as the evil they are e.g. Choice & Relocation -there are many subtleties and complexities involved with lying; involved with transforming black or white into shades of gray...

Somehow I think you miss the reality that those that have and do promote evil are not very much different than you, I, or any that may post here on COL. Evil happens when people abandon absolute truth and instead premise actions upon moral relative reasoning -the many subtleties and complexities that elite leftists evoke as always a necessary compromise of truth in pursuit of Utopia.

It is quite simple in my opinion -black or white, the right to self defense... I could care less about even entertaining and or considering the supposed many subtleties and complexities involved with transforming black or white into shades of gray by those that seek to deny me what is inalienable.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 08:44 
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Leo wrote:
I personally do not see the need for weapons. However, I know I am blessed to not have encountered a situation that would have ignited my anger to the point were I would feel the need to arm myself. If I had maybe I would think differently?


Is it your presumption, then, that the decision to own guns must be an act of anger? Does that preclude a rational basis for gun ownership?



There have been several mentions of the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, both here and other discussions I've been in. Unfortunately, some of these mentions seem to focus on the "...shall not be infringed" end of the article, to the exclusion of the "well-regulated" end of it.

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Charivari Rob wrote:
Leo wrote:
I personally do not see the need for weapons. However, I know I am blessed to not have encountered a situation that would have ignited my anger to the point were I would feel the need to arm myself. If I had maybe I would think differently?


Is it your presumption, then, that the decision to own guns must be an act of anger? Does that preclude a rational basis for gun ownership?



There have been several mentions of the Constitutional Right to Bear Arms, both here and other discussions I've been in. Unfortunately, some of these mentions seem to focus on the "...shall not be infringed" end of the article, to the exclusion of the "well-regulated" end of it.


"well regulated"; does that mean an organized militia such as possibly the NRA might represent; does it mean under the absolute control of the government, seems contrary to the understood intent of protecting the citizens from a tyrannical government; does it mean all arms are to be registered and thus regulated, again that seems contrary to the understood intent or what other meanings can we derive?

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 10:34 
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Is it your presumption, then, that the decision to own guns must be an act of anger? Does that preclude a rational basis for gun ownership?


Rob,

My only encounters with gun owners are:

• They been in the military
• Current Law Enforcement officers
• Angered by a traumatic episode

My father-in-law had an experience were he was getting into his car after a late evening event. Someone approached him out of no where and demanded his keys. He was so angered by the episode that he started the process of acquiring a gun. Fortunately, he never completed the process.

We all felt that he was captured by surprise and that a gun would have just escalated the event and not placed it in his favor. Eventually, we discussed ways he could be more observant and to make certain he was not traveling alone if he had somewhere to go late in the evening.

In regards to Constitutional Rights?

Remember the Constitution is not the Gospel. Therefore, it is open to modifications and it has been changed to reflect the will of the people. I image that when Rosa Parks was asked to give up her seat for a white person, she was simply told; It's the law. It must of have seemed pretty pointless and she must have felt she was condemn to having to give up her seat for the remainder of her life. Many people must have told her not to make waves and I am certain she went through many hardships during the process. Ultimately, I think many people are happy she decided to "infringe" on the Constitution.

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Leo,

You are correct the Constitution can be amended but until it is, it remains the basis for US Law. When was the Bill of Rights last amended?

As far as Rosa Parks being denied a bus seat, where was that denial based on an amendment to the Constitution, or an Article of the Constitution?

As that denial was prevalent only in the Southern states, the denial was based on the various state laws and the a fore mentioned amendment was to prevent those state laws.

Lastly, shall not be infringed is specific Language of the 2nd Amendment, not the entire Constitution.

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Leo wrote:
Quote:
Is it your presumption, then, that the decision to own guns must be an act of anger? Does that preclude a rational basis for gun ownership?


Rob,

My only encounters with gun owners are:

• They been in the military
• Current Law Enforcement officers
• Angered by a traumatic episode

My father-in-law had an experience were he was getting into his car after a late evening event. Someone approached him out of no where and demanded his keys. He was so angered by the episode that he started the process of acquiring a gun. Fortunately, he never completed the process.

We all felt that he was captured by surprise and that a gun would have just escalated the event and not placed it in his favor. Eventually, we discussed ways he could be more observant and to make certain he was not traveling alone if he had somewhere to go late in the evening.

In regards to Constitutional Rights?

Remember the Constitution is not the Gospel. Therefore, it is open to modifications and it has been changed to reflect the will of the people. I image that when Rosa Parks was asked to give up her seat for a white person, she was simply told; It's the law. It must of have seemed pretty pointless and she must have felt she was condemn to having to give up her seat for the remainder of her life. Many people must have told her not to make waves and I am certain she went through many hardships during the process. Ultimately, I think many people are happy she decided to "infringe" on the Constitution.


It's interesting that you bring up Rosa Parks since she was defending her Constitutional right as a free citizen, she wasn't trying to change the Constitution to suit her personal druthers.

Veterans ans law enforcement officers and politicians, although it's often hard to tell with pols, have all sworn to uphold the Constitution and uphold it we shall; except for those politicians who think oaths are a mere formality.

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Leo wrote:
Quote:
Is it your presumption, then, that the decision to own guns must be an act of anger? Does that preclude a rational basis for gun ownership?


Rob,

My only encounters with gun owners are:

• They been in the military
• Current Law Enforcement officers
• Angered by a traumatic episode

It's very interesting, Leo, that you've never met any gun owners who are hunters or trap/skeet/target shooter, all legitimate pastimes, and who've never been in the military.

Without caring enough to verify it, I would speculate that gun owners who own guns for those legitimate purposes far outnumber those who purchased a firearm out of fear because they had been traumatized by a potentially life-threatening episode.

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Bob…

Both of you are correct. Sorry, I was attempting to not be lengthy. Mrs Parks event was one in a series of events that started the civil rights movement.

My point is that I understand the outcry. I pray that none of us here ever looses a love one to gun violence. However, there have just been too many cases of violence involving a gun. To say that we should just carry on with business as usual is unacceptable.

Honestly, I am not certain what effective measures can be taken? Most of these cases involve a gun that was legally acquired? Placing more law enforcement around schools? Remember one of these events was at a movie theater. What happens if the next one is at a Mall?

When was the last time you saw a Sky Marshall on your flight? Budget issue will quickly terminate this idea of a policeman at every corner.

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Without caring enough to verify it…


Jim,

As mentioned earlier somewhere in this tread. A total band is going to have as much effectiveness as prohibition did for alcohol.

But your are right, the few hunters that I know (personally) have a military background. Of course, I am generalizing, I cannot speak for everyone. However, I am primarily a city boy.

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Leo wrote:
Bob…

Both of you are correct. Sorry, I was attempting to not be lengthy. Mrs Parks event was one in a series of events that started the civil rights movement.

My point is that I understand the outcry. I pray that none of us here ever looses a love one to gun violence. However, there have just been too many cases of violence involving a gun. To say that we should just carry on with business as usual is unacceptable.

Honestly, I am not certain what effective measures can be taken? Most of these cases involve a gun that was legally acquired? Placing more law enforcement around schools? Remember one of these events was at a movie theater. What happens if the next one is at a Mall?

When was the last time you saw a Sky Marshall on your flight? Budget issue will quickly terminate this idea of a policeman at every corner.


If any lawmaker wants to have a sane and reasonable discussion about violent crime, including but not limited to crimes committed with a firearm they will find a ready audience. All the discussion to date has been about the desire of government to eliminate private ownership of firearms regardless of how veiled the presentation of that desire has been, not about solving the real issues - crime and mental illness.

The effectiveness of a Sky Marshall lies in the fact a criminal knows one may be on the plane but can't identify who it is thereby allowing them to be assigned to flights randomly and not to all flights.

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Leo,

Quote:
? Most of these cases involve a gun that was legally acquired?


In most cases that is untrue.

Quote:
Placing more law enforcement around schools?


That is a good idea, Florida already has a Police Officer or Sheriff Deputy at every Public Middle and High School in the State, adding the elementary schools would cost about 140 Million more to the school budget, so it is a money issue as well.

Quote:
Remember one of these events was at a movie theater.


That was a no Gun Zone under Colorado Law, meaning that no person who was legally licensed was allowed to be armed.

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What happens if the next one is at a Mall?


Likely there will be armed citizens to help put an end to it. Unless it occurs in one of those states that tries very hard to keep it's citizens from legally carrying.

The state of Florida has over one Million active Concealed Carry Permits on the rolls, that is about 5% of the population, chances are the person standing behind you in line, or sitting next to you in the restaurant, or chatting with you at the grocery store is armed. ........and not one of those active license holders murdered anyone recently. No one committed any crimes. Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens do not pose a threat to anyone. That number does not count off duty police who may carry but are not required to be licensed.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 12:35 
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BobC:

Arwen wrote:
Rereading the linked article above, this stands out: ". . . the only Koreans who were murdered in the L.A. riots were unarmed. There were no casualties amongst those Koreans who defended their property with gunfire." Talking about the riots of 1992.


dlm wrote:
It is quite simple in my opinion -black or white, the right to self defense... I could care less about even entertaining and or considering the supposed many subtleties and complexities involved with transforming black or white into shades of gray by those that seek to deny me what is inalienable.


bali wrote:
All the discussion to date has been about the desire of government to eliminate private ownership of firearms regardless of how veiled the presentation of that desire has been, not about solving the real issues - crime and mental illness.


You see why I am frustrated? Despite attempting to discuss gun control rationally, as in finding which guns should and should not perhaps be restricted, the discussion constantly revolves around "YOU WANT TO TAKE MY GUNS AWAY!"

One cannot have a rational discussion if one side is talking about Topic A, and the other side is talking about Topic B.

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