Catholic Online Forum

==> Atheists, agnostics know most about religion, survey says

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I'm not surprised, though disappointed (particularly that 4 of 10 Catholics don't know what the body and blood of Christ is), as the commenter said, people who leave behind religious traditions often think long and hard about it. I think we have a drive to know the Truth and it's as inherent in atheists as others so they're likely to have looked at many religious traditions in a search for answers. I am surprised that Mormons scored higher than evangelical's in knowledge of the bible since the evangelicals I know are very well versed in it.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Mormon youth (I think it might be only males ...) are expected to go out on one or two year missions. So they tend to be very well prepared for that.

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Points from the referenced article:
(Note: My responses are personal opinion and are not necessarily accurate!)


Recalling from my days as a Baptist, many protestants are nearly as suspicious of Lutherans as Catholics.


While this is disturbing, it is not all that surprising. (Also, I wonder how many of those who called themselves Catholic actually attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days?)


I agree with Rev. Hamilton . . . on all points.


Scary? . . . probably. Surprising? Again, no.

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

I don't find that scary at all. 4% probably believe the Mayan calendar predict the end of the world and aliens from space built the pyramids.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Indeed. There is much truth to this.

Atheists are exposed to many different faiths because they do not insulate themselves within one worldview to the same degree that those of faith do. So I would expect them to know more about many various faiths.

I would, however, expect Catholics to know more about Catholicism than atheists. That does not tend to be the case. I tend to find this is a result of atheists generally being better educated and better read on religious matters than believers. That's just my experience.

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Jeff Stevens

Jim,



Not surprising. Horrifying. But then, also horrifying is that they can't see what was wrong in voting for Obama.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Gap in knowledge e.g. did not eat from the fruit...

So, now the anti Christians know Christianity better than Christians? -count me a non useful idiot...

If I remember correctly -almost all I learned about Christian religion from secular sources was biased negative...

For instance, Luther supposedly revolted against the evil Catholic Church...

Public education at one time taught the beneficial aspects of the Christian religion and religious history to all as among all things the development of Western civilization and the founding of the United States. Now not so much if any good aspects are even mentioned with the false separation of church and state premise being imposed by leftists. Is it any wonder that those negative and or opposed to religion 'know' more arbitrary 'facts' than those who have avoided the brainwashing?

Compare what is conveyed in Christian religious services with that which is conveyed in a secular anti Christian education and I am sure that the body of knowledge would show quite a contrast.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I guess that means they're more religious...

I'll take the unknowledgeable man of faith over the educated atheist ANY day, thank you very much...

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Even if the man of faith isn't Christian?

Personally, I try to take them all, as I meet them, and try to treat them with the dignity that a neighbour deserves.

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Even though Atheists are not formally organized, their universal denial of a supreme deity qualifies them to be a religion. They actually qualify as having faith in their denial so no matter what they may proclaim their insistance in non-belief in God makes them "one body" and therefore, a religion in themselves. Most likely they feel comfort in their numbers as in other religions. They take great pride in their intelligence and logic, and prepare themselves for likely debate by studying various religions to enable them to refute ideas presented by believers, so it is not surprising to me that they are well versed in religious facts.

The basic difference between them and "us" is they refuse to believe in a "power" they cannot see or touch and think it ridiculous to trust in an invisible entity. They hold themselves to be a little "better" than believers in that they won't be fooled by a "false nothingness" which obviously cannot possess any power or glory. They may feel "betrayed" by possibly once believing in Santa Claus but then told that he is not what they were led to believe So they are never going to allow themselves to be humiliated like that again.

The one requirement to be a believer is to trust this "seemingly nothingness" which they refuse to do.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Shultzz,

I must respectfully disagree with practically everything in those two sentences. The one item I might agree with in part is the idea of having "faith in their denial", although to attribute that faith to atheists in general is probably overreach.

I deny the existance of little green men from Mars. Many others also make that denial. That doesn't make my non-belief a religion.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Hi Denise,

I hope I'm remembering that correctly. There used to be a "squirt" on the forum whose name is Denise and I'm assuming that's you. If not - my apologies!

You wrote:


Yes, even if the man of faith isn't a Christian. And of course, as a Catholic who seeks to live my faith to the best of my ability, I too "try to take them all, as I meet them, and try to treat them with the dignity that a neighbour deserves."

God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Hi Barb,

Yup. Some people call me Denise. But trying to convince my employer to address internal mail to me as Denise has been an uphill battle that I've given up on ... and since 9-11, I have learned not to book airline tickets under the name Denise. It's just too much of a hassle.

So, I'll just sign off as ...

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Well, according to Mr. Schultzz, the atheist is a man of faith.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Yet another wake up call for our Bishops, who also have a responsibiliy to educate the souls in their flock.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Schultzz,



There are a good many more grounds for atheism than simply crude empiricism.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

In my many arguments with atheists on the catholic.com forums, and their own atheist forum where I was soon banned,
I found that they kept asking me "Where's the evidence?", "Where's the evidence?"

It is useless to point out to them that the universe itself is the evidence.
They don't want to believe in God. End of argument.

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Norman
...that is the regret of a lot of old people when they look back and realize too late what might have been.
This was what President Martin regretted. He thought he was doing something good. It was a disaster. How can anybody know what is the right thing to do?
-- Theresa

Before I address your statements and defend mine we need to ask ourselves by whose definition do we define that often slippery word "religion". Then we might at least agree at a point to start. Accepted definitions sometimes change with the age that is present. Under some definitions Atheism is a religion because it fulfills most or all of the qualifications of that definition. What definition of the word "religion" do you accept?

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

A good point Schultzz.

Just off the top of my head, I would define religion as an organized belief system that includes belief in the supernatural. That would probably include spiritual beings and probably a supreme being.

According to the IRS, it must be an organized group, not just loose amalgamation.

I don't think a religion can be defined by what one does not believe, whether that is the existance of a supreme being or little green men.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Substitute "aggregation" for "amalgamation" in that sentence. (editing time ran out)

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I vaguely recall an atheist claiming exemption from the draft on the grounds that he was a pacifist. I think the Supreme Court ruled in his favor on the grounds that atheism was the equivalent of a religion for him. I don't remember any of the details.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Joe,

Would that be the same Supreme Court that believes unborn babies are not persons?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I suspect you have been duped by leftist propaganda...

The life question was never addressed -in fact, it was specifically avoided by leftist judges that would have failed confronting the black and white contrast of truth head on. Even with this dodge, the leftist judges still felt the need to give evil and those that promote it further cover by adopting a gray scale defined through trimesters. Peace through compromise of truth -quite leftist!

Regardless the dodge, primarily it was PRIVACY --the penumbra providing cover from which the leftists assert such a claim by the actions they advocate and promote. The conception of life -once a matter of faith has been proven through science -life begins at conception. However, it is the supposed scientific rational based elitist left that ignores science and instead continues to rely on a common law definition of life -this so that the evil they promote can continue. It is all about the ends; the means the leftists employ are never constrained by truth, fact or principle...

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,



http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... tal+Rights

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

In so many words, exactly as I stated. To do otherwise, OTHER than stick with the common law definition of life would have required actually addressing the question.

As an aside, it is interesting that the document you reference discusses the supposed good of a court created "fetal rights'. This as well in so many words was as I stated -the gray area created to muddy the stark contrast between black and white, evil and truth.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Let me add that LIFE as documented in the US Constitution (the law of the land under God's law) is an inalienable right endowed us by the Creator. The Supreme Court continues to allow the murder of innocents UNTIL birth (the common law definition of when life begins). The gray area created and labeled as "fetus rights" is but subterfuge -used much like many gray areas created by liars promoting evil -the gray that evil compromises truth with such as the gray area termed 'brain death'...

This is nothing new -it is simply as referred to per Solomon, a cutting the baby in half compromise.

Those who promote cutting the baby in half; and or accept as just, cutting the baby in half; ARE in reality those who promulgate evil.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Thank you for your definition David but rather than slant the definition to any one side perhaps we had better look at some more general definitions given by some knowledgeable and credible sources.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

David,
While your definition seems logical and believable, here are some others which I found on Google.

Religion is a collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.[1]
Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration of a god, gods or goddesses, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service or other aspects of human culture. Religions may also contain mythology.[2]
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system; however, in the words of Émile Durkheim, religion differs from private belief in that it is "something eminently social".[3] A global 2012 poll reports that 59% of the world's population is religious, 23% are not religious, and 13% are atheists.[4]

1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

It is true that many societies do not draw a clear line between their culture and what scholars would call “religion.” This does not mean that religion doesn’t exist, but it is worth keeping in mind that even when we think we have a handle on what religion is, we might be fooling ourselves.

Definitions of religion tend to suffer from one of two problems: they are either too narrow and exclude many belief systems which most agree are religious, or they are too vague and ambiguous, suggesting that just about any and everything is a religion.

A good example of a narrow definition is the common attempt to define “religion” as “belief in God,” effectively excluding polytheistic religions and atheistic religions while including theists who have no religious belief system. A good example of a vague definition is the tendency to define religion as “worldview” — but how can every worldview qualify as a religion?

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

David, here's another.

Religion is a difficult thing to define. Various definitions have been proposed, many of which emphasize a belief in the supernatural.4 But such definitions break down on closer inspection for several reasons. They fail to deal with religions which worship non-supernatural things in their own right (for example Jainism, which holds that every living thing is sacred because it is alive, or the Mayans who worshiped the sun as a deity in and of itself rather than a deity associated with the sun)5; they fail to include religions such as Confucianism and Taoism which focus almost exclusively on how adherents should live, and the little they do say about supernatural issues such as the existence of an afterlife is very vague; they also don’t deal with religious movements centred around UFOs—which believe that aliens are highly (evolutionarily) advanced (but not supernatural) beings.

A better way to determine whether a worldview is a religion is to look for certain characteristics that religions have in common. The framework set forth by Ninian Smart,6 commonly known as the Seven Dimensions of Religion, is widely accepted by anthropologists and researchers of religion as broadly covering the various aspects of religion, without focusing on things unique to specific religions.

The seven dimensions proposed by Smart are narrative, experiential, social, ethical, doctrinal, ritual and material. Not every religion has every dimension, nor are they all equally important within an individual religion. Smart even argues that the “secularisation” of western society is actually a shift of focus from the doctrinal and ritual to the experiential.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

I think atheism/secularism should be classified as a religion for legal purposes. They are waging relentless war against every cross and creche they can see on public property and getting away with it because they pretend that their position is the neutral default.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Schultz,

If the definition is vague enough then everything is a religion. Grace just proposed that secularism be consdered a religion. The last time I checked secular means exactly the opposite.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Okay. Atheism, not secularism. Atheism is a belief system and atheists are trying to cram their beliefs down everybody else's throats.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

It seems that it is as difficult to definitively define religion as it is to define terrorism, socialism, or fascism.

There seem to be useful definitions for limited purposes (e.g. legal), but nothing globally definitive.

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Jeff Stevens

Grace,

I think you might enjoy James McAuley's A Letter to John Dryden.

http://www.poetrylibrary.edu.au/poets/m ... en-0151060

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The most general difference between religion and atheism is that the former is a belief in the supernatural while the latter is a belief only in what can be seen and touched. Not all belief in the supernatural is religious but all religion involves a belief in the supernatural.

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BobA

Perhaps that was true before the 4200 religions but:

"Religion is a difficult thing to define. Various definitions have been proposed, many of which emphasize a belief in the supernatural.4 But such definitions break down on closer inspection for several reasons. They fail to deal with religions which worship non-supernatural things in their own right (for example Jainism, which holds that every living thing is sacred because it is alive, or the Mayans who worshiped the sun as a deity in and of itself rather than a deity associated with the sun)5; they fail to include religions such as Confucianism and Taoism which focus almost exclusively on how adherents should live, and the little they do say about supernatural issues such as the existence of an afterlife is very vague; they also don’t deal with religious movements centred around UFOs—which believe that aliens are highly (evolutionarily) advanced (but not supernatural) beings.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Good point David. I like your definition but in our present age it may not hold up. If you think about it a little Atheists think that they are gods, self-sufficient unto themselves, so whether or not they
qualify as being supernatural I don't know, but I believe they think they are like gods.

Maybe we could come up with our own term: superunatural!

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

I fail to see the distinction between worshiping a rock or worshiping God in terms of the supernatural. God, animate and inanimate objects are worshiped because they are believed to be endowed with supernatural powers. The Asian religions mentioned do ultimately refer to a supernatural guidance that is beyond the reasoning of humanity left to its own devices. I'll concede that ET worship is probably not due to supernatural power but rather some super (advanced)-intelligence; in principal, doesn't that make ET worship akin to Atheism?

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BobA

And if you think about it a lot ... how many atheists have you met who think that they are gods?

Is this something akin to the Imperial Cult of the Romans? But they weren't atheists ...

Some atheists may have 'big egos', but that trait can be found across theists and non-theists alike ...

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

"There is no God." Some atheists categorically state that there is no God, and all atheists, by definition, believe it. And yet, this assertion is logically indefensible. A person would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to be able to say from his own pool of knowledge that there is no God. Only someone who is capable of being in all places at the same time - with a perfect knowledge of all that is in the universe - can make such a statement based on the facts. To put it another way, a person would have to be God in order to say there is no God.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Schultzz. Why wouldn't the same things be true of we who say "There is a God."?

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Or in other words, these atheists are human and make mistakes in terms of their grasp of logic?

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

As a supernatural entity, God can neither be proved nor disproved; our belief is based on Faith not fact although there is a growing body of physical evidence of the historical accuracy of the scriptures. To argue the existence of God with a true Atheist is fruitless however to discuss and demonstrate the beneficial aspects of a Christian life may bear some fruit in conversions.

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BobA

Although I agree somewhat with the second statement (having been an atheist for most of my life), I will not publicly dispute the first one ... as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PB.HTM

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

The view of the Vatican would be considered to be a speculative statement based on Faith; it does not provide any tangible, scientific proof. Glad you found your way to the truth by the way. I was never an Atheist but did suffer a breakdown in Faith for several years, Agnostic I suppose if I had to apply a term.

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BobA

And if you think about it even more you will come to the conclusion that I have been misquoted.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx