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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 10:51 
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/11/12/states-petition-obama-administration-to-secede/

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From states across the country, Americans have filed petitions on the White House Web site seeking to secede from the union and form new state governments.

While most of the petitions come from states that supported Mitt Romney in last week’s election, a few swing states and even the deep blue Northeast are represented.

Petitions have been filed for Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas.



http://www.dailypaul.com/262715/15-states-start-petitions-to-secede-from-the-us

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Updated petition numbers as at 03:00 am Monday.

Louisiana, 12,395; Texas, 15,378; Florida, 4,178; Georgia, 3,416; Alabama, 4,150; North Carolina, 3,927; Kentucky, 3,351; Mississippi, 3,296; Indiana, 3,315; North Dakota, 2,589; Montana, 2,971; Colorado, 3,221; Oregon, 2,798; New Jersey, 2,561 and New York, 2,946

Arkansas 581; South Carolina 2,716; Missouri 2,294; Tennessee 2,787; Michigan 2,573; Oklahoma 38

Total 21 states.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 14:19 
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Is that actually somewhere on the White House website pulldown menu?

"Tours"
"Contact Us"
"File for Secession"
"Shop our online store"

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 14:56 
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First I'm hearing of it.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 16:14 
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Actually, David, the title (I assume?) you picked for this thread is a bit misleading.

There is quite a difference between private citizens submitting petitions for secession and state governments actually doing it.

Almost 152 years ago, it was the latter occurrence that ripped this country asunder for four years. See War Between the State/War of Northern Aggression (depending on your perspective)

I hope I'm not wrong in believing that a few thousand signatures on petitions gathered in 21 states won't lead to a recurrence of that sad event in our history.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 17:09 
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retsinab wrote:
Actually, David, the title (I assume?) you picked for this thread is a bit misleading.

There is quite a difference between private citizens submitting petitions for secession and state governments actually doing it.

Almost 152 years ago, it was the latter occurrence that ripped this country asunder for four years. See War Between the State/War of Northern Aggression (depending on your perspective)

I hope I'm not wrong in believing that a few thousand signatures on petitions gathered in 21 states won't lead to a recurrence of that sad event in our history.


I agree, though I do hope it sends a message and that message is considered by the White House. We are not all pleased with the state of this country and the direction in which it is headed.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 20:12 
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retsinab wrote:
Actually, David, the title (I assume?) you picked for this thread is a bit misleading.

There is quite a difference between private citizens submitting petitions for secession and state governments actually doing it.

Jim,

You caught me, and I can't blame anyone else for the title. :oops:

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 20:33 
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Jim,

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I hope I'm not wrong in believing that a few thousand signatures on petitions gathered in 21 states won't lead to a recurrence of that sad event in our history.


You ain't just whistlin' Dixie.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 20:43 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Jim,

Quote:
I hope I'm not wrong in believing that a few thousand signatures on petitions gathered in 21 states won't lead to a recurrence of that sad event in our history.


You ain't just whistlin' Dixie.

Ironically, James, the song "Dixie", so closely identified with the Confederacy, was penned by a yankee! :) :roll: :)

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 20:48 
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I agree, though I do hope it sends a message and that message is considered by the White House. We are not all pleased with the state of this country and the direction in which it is headed.



I don't think he cares what anyone thinks.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 20:58 
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BobC wrote:
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I agree, though I do hope it sends a message and that message is considered by the White House. We are not all pleased with the state of this country and the direction in which it is headed.



I don't think he cares what anyone thinks.



You are quite correct.

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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 23:09 
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dlm wrote:
BobC wrote:
Quote:
I agree, though I do hope it sends a message and that message is considered by the White House. We are not all pleased with the state of this country and the direction in which it is headed.

I don't think he cares what anyone thinks.

You are quite correct.

Now he has the flexibility to not care.

Texas is way over the required number of 25,000 signatures to get a response although I kind of doubt they will get any sort of acknowledgment from the White House.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... t/BmdWCP8B

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 00:40 
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I was gonna say....

Why petition the White House for it? Why not Congress or the Courts? Whey not the State government?

Is the White House the authority to grant this petition? Do you think Obama would grant it? :P

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 14:31 
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sfousa wrote:
I was gonna say....

Why petition the White House for it? Why not Congress or the Courts? Whey not the State government?

Is the White House the authority to grant this petition? Do you think Obama would grant it? :P

I don't think any branch of the government would grant it. Petitioning the US Government for secession is just nonsensical. If serious, the state should just issue a declaration of independence, and be prepared to defend their borders.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 14:33 
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LASaxman wrote:
sfousa wrote:
I was gonna say....

Why petition the White House for it? Why not Congress or the Courts? Whey not the State government?

Is the White House the authority to grant this petition? Do you think Obama would grant it? :P

I don't think any branch of the government would grant it. Petitioning the US Government for secession is just nonsensical. If serious, the state should just issue a declaration of independence, and be prepared to defend their borders.

That didn't work out very well the first time . . .

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 17:14 
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While states cannot secede, I recall hearing that when Texas entered the Union it reserved the right to subdivide itself into up to five separate states. Wonder if that right still exists? Eight more senators and eight more electoral votes would be interesting.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 17:42 
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gabriel wrote:
While states cannot secede, I recall hearing that when Texas entered the Union it reserved the right to subdivide itself into up to five separate states. Wonder if that right still exists? Eight more senators and eight more electoral votes would be interesting.

According to Snopes:

Quote:
Any real likelihood that Texas might be carved up into additional states was ended when Texas seceded from the Union in 1861, joined the side of the Confederacy in the Civil War, and was not formally re-admitted to the U.S. until after the 1865 ratification of the 13th amendment which abolished slavery throughout the jurisdiction of the United States.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 06:07 
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Maybe Texans should ask how Singapore did it. Singapore seceded from the Federation of Malaysia in early 1960's and became more successful than the mother country. Let's ask Ian.

BTW. how is the Scotland statehood movement coming along?

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:50 
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Marie,

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...how is the Scotland statehood movement coming along?


They'll be having a referendum on it in 2014.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 18:37 
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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 18:49 
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David,

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Secdee!


Houston, we have a problem.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 19:17 
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As I pointed out on another forum, these "petitions" are about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 06:04 
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JMJ

Add Nebraska to the list....saw an item on local news.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 06:13 
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mary josephine l wrote:
JMJ

Add Nebraska to the list....saw an item on local news.


As of yesterday there are petitions for all 50 states.

http://politics.gather.com/viewArticle. ... 4981757227

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 06:40 
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Insofar as, according to the White House's own website, seven of those petitions have gained enough signatures to obtain a proper response, this may be productive.

It's unlikely, however, that any state will actually leave the union.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 06:57 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
David,

Quote:
Secdee!


Houston, we have a problem.


Yes, they can do wonders with PhotoShop.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 10:00 
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Wow, over 750,000 signers! The Obama vengeance squads (IRS, FBI, SS) will have to work overtime.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 12:21 
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Barack I Emperor of all the States could not give a smelly Petunia what we think.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 15:11 
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BobC wrote:
Barack I Emperor of all the States could not give a smelly Petunia what we think.


That may seal the doom of the Dem Devil Debacle.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 19:55 
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bali wrote:
Wow, over 750,000 signers! The Obama vengeance squads (IRS, FBI, SS) will have to work overtime.

I say let them all secede, individually.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 20:29 
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The USSA is coming.

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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 15:18 
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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 16:58 
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Quote:
Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) said Monday that secession was a “deeply American principle,” amid a growing number of people petitioning the White House to let their states secede from the U.S.

“Secession is a deeply American principle. This country was born through secession. Some felt it was treasonous to secede from England, but those ‘traitors’ became our country’s greatest patriots,” the former presidential candidate wrote in a post on his House website. “There is nothing treasonous or unpatriotic about wanting a federal government that is more responsive to the people it represents.”


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84058.html#ixzz2CigwgRqj

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 17:07 
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David,

Quote:
Some felt it was treasonous to secede from England


The 13 colonies did not secede (or even secdee) from England. To do so they would have had to be part of England; they never were. The US was not born in secession, but in revolution.

(I could be really provocative and say the US was born in rebellion, but let's not go there.)

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 18:04 
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sfousa wrote:
I was gonna say....

Why petition the White House for it? Why not Congress or the Courts? Whey not the State government?

Is the White House the authority to grant this petition? Do you think Obama would grant it? :P


God is the authority.

The federal government does not grant freedom and rights; especially the freedom and inalienable rights specifically detailed in the Constitution -the rights that the federal government is tasked with protecting.

The federal government increasingly chooses to subvert and not uphold the laws of the land -- this, while at the same time becoming the increasingly tyrannical offender of individual freedom and liberty as the self declared mandated champion of a collective mob of morally bankrupt special interests.

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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 19:02 
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Marie,

Quote:
Maybe Texans should ask how Singapore did it. Singapore seceded from the Federation of Malaysia in early 1960's and became more successful than the mother country.


I wasn't ignoring you, just waiting for someone else to chime in.

Quote:
On 31 August 1963, Singapore declared independence from Britain and joined with Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak to form the new Federation of Malaysia as the result of the 1962 Merger Referendum. Singaporean leaders joined Malaysia for various reasons. Firstly, as a small country, they did not believe that the British would find it viable for Singapore to become independent by itself. Secondly, they also did not believe that Singapore could survive on its own, due to scarcity of land, water, markets and natural resources. And lastly, the Singapore government wanted the help of the Malaysian government to flush out the Communists. The two years that Singapore spent as part of Malaysia were filled with strife and bitter disagreements. The Malaysians insisted on a pro-Malay society, where Malays were given special Bumiputera rights, which still exist to this day. The Malaysians were also suspicious about Singapore's majority of ethnic Chinese and worried that Singapore's economic clout would shift the centre of power from Kuala Lumpur to Singapore. There were also linguistic and religious issues. The Singaporeans, on the other hand, wanted an equal and meritocratic society, a Malaysian Malaysia where all citizens were given equal rights. As part of Malaysia, Singapore's economic and social development came to a halt as the Malaysian parliament blocked many bills. Race riots broke out in Singapore in 1964. After much heated ideological conflicts between the two governments, in 1965, the Malaysian parliament voted 126 to 0 to expel Singapore from Malaysia.

Singapore gained independence as the Republic of Singapore (remaining within the Commonwealth) on 9 August 1965 with Yusof bin Ishak as president and Lee Kuan Yew as Prime Minister. Every one who was present in Singapore on the date of independence was offered Singapore citizenship.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 02:17 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
I wasn't ignoring you, just waiting for someone else to chime in.


Thanks, James, for this bit of Southeast Asian history. :)

Quote:
Race riots broke out in Singapore in 1964. After much heated ideological conflicts between the two governments, in 1965, the Malaysian parliament voted 126 to 0 to expel Singapore from Malaysia.


I didn't know there were race riots. So instead of seceding, Singapore was expelled? Can you imagine what Texas and all those other states can do?

Quote:
Every one who was present in Singapore on the date of independence was offered Singapore citizenship.


I know. My sister was there on that date and had seriously considered giving up her Philippine passport for a Singaporean citizenship. But she didn't.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 03:04 
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sfousa wrote:

My sister was there on that date and had seriously considered giving up her Philippine passport for a Singaporean citizenship. But she didn't.

What did she think about that decision when she got older?

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 03:47 
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sfousa wrote:
Quote:
Race riots broke out in Singapore in 1964. After much heated ideological conflicts between the two governments, in 1965, the Malaysian parliament voted 126 to 0 to expel Singapore from Malaysia.


I didn't know there were race riots. So instead of seceding, Singapore was expelled? Can you imagine what Texas and all those other states can do?

Quote:
Every one who was present in Singapore on the date of independence was offered Singapore citizenship.

Marie and all,

My apologies for not seeing this and replying. It is true, we were roundly kicked on our behinds and booted out of the Federation. The folks up north agitated the riots that killed hundreds of people here. They were furious that we fought for equal rights for all citizens and were against priority treatment for any one race or religion which the Malaysian government championed for the Malays and Islam under their Bumiputra scheme-- their version of apartheid that is still in force today.

With no natural resources, Singapore were considered a basket case that nobody gave a chance to survive. No country in the British Commonwealth or elsewhere were willing to help us, apart from wishing us well, and that is why many turned down the chance for a Singapore citizenship. We were expected to go broke within a few months and go on our knees to beg Malaysia to take us back. But when a people have their backs against the wall, funny things happen to spur them on to rise above themselves to fight for their dignity and we had only Israel in our hour of need stand by us to give us advice and their expertise on survival. We have always been grateful to Yitzhak Rabin who contributed much to this end.

That, in a nutshell, is our story. :)

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 04:05 
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ianJM wrote:
With no natural resources, Singapore were considered a basket case that nobody gave a chance to survive. No country in the British Commonwealth or elsewhere were willing to help us, apart from wishing us well, and that is why many turned down the chance for a Singapore citizenship. We were expected to go broke within a few months and go on our knees to beg Malaysia to take us back. But when a people have their backs against the wall, funny things happen to spur them on to rise above themselves to fight for their dignity and we had only Israel in our hour of need stand by us to give us advice and their expertise on survival. We have always been grateful to Yitzhak Rabin who contributed much to this end.

That, in a nutshell, is our story. :)
Well, that is really interesting.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 04:19 
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Sorry, not hundreds died, but scores. My bad. :)

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 12:35 
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Arwen wrote:
sfousa wrote:

My sister was there on that date and had seriously considered giving up her Philippine passport for a Singaporean citizenship. But she didn't.

What did she think about that decision when she got older?


Grace,
At first she regretted not taking Sigaporean citizenship (she loved the food :) ) and she stayed for a while until Premier Lee Kuan Yew purged out all foreign journalists in the country. (My sister was working for a travel publication there.) Very quickly she applied for a visa to the US. And now she is in Chicago, married to an Italian, and couldn't be happier. :)

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 12:42 
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ianJM wrote:
Sorry, not hundreds died, but scores. My bad. :)


Ian,
Do you think what happened to Singapore would work in Texas or any of the other states who wanted out of the US? I know you're probably not too concerned about things in the US, but just for fun, would you speculate?

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 12:52 
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sfousa wrote:
she stayed for a while until Premier Lee Kuan Yew purged out all foreign journalists in the country.

Marie,

There was never any purge of foreign journalists by LKY. Many western journalists were shocked that an Asian leader dared to stand up to them. In Asia, we were expected to fall in line when these media hounds pushed their own agendas in telling us how we should run our country. He was tough on them, demanded a right of reply when they levelled accusations that were way off base. When they refused to print his reply, he sued them and they ran away. LKY can be accused of many things, but one thing he was admired for here was his refusal to allow western journalists to dictate how we ran our house.

If Singapore ever did acquiesce to the demands of western powers, we would never be where we are today.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 13:12 
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sfousa wrote:
ianJM wrote:
Sorry, not hundreds died, but scores. My bad. :)


Ian,
Do you think what happened to Singapore would work in Texas or any of the other states who wanted out of the US? I know you're probably not too concerned about things in the US, but just for fun, would you speculate?


Marie,

I am concerned with what happens in the United States, as anyone in the free world would. There is no denying the US influences trends around the world, and when an economic and military superpower sneezes the world catches a flu. When Obama pushes his anti-life agenda, there is a danger it will catch on globally. In the run-up to the elections, I had my share of debates with my younger colleagues, Obama supporters as they were, to broaden their horizons and advised them not to be influenced by the the mostly bias liberal US press and international agency feeds we were getting. Hopefully, it went some way to help them because they are the future of the public voice here.

That said, what happened to Singapore in the 1960s was unique to our circumstances. We were and are largely an immigrant society, mostly from China in the pre-communist days, and the Chinese during that period went through challenging times and were a hardy people. We were then also a poverty-stricken society, the Philippines far advanced economically and the rest of South-east Asia well ahead of us. Even Sri Lanka were far wealthier.

The present circumstances in Texas and the rest of the US are different. The problems are faith and morals, but even in an economic crisis, the nation has the resources to survive. But like Singapore, I believe the greatest resource the US has is its people, and those who stand by their God-given rights can end up victorious if their faith in God drives them to never give up.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 15:24 
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sfousa wrote:
ianJM wrote:
Sorry, not hundreds died, but scores. My bad. :)


Ian,
Do you think what happened to Singapore would work in Texas or any of the other states who wanted out of the US? I know you're probably not too concerned about things in the US, but just for fun, would you speculate?

Do you mean, if the Texans acted really badly and got themselves expelled?

Personally I think that everybody who signed such a petition should have their citizenship revoked. That would be one way of granting their wish. :wink:

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 15:39 
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Ian,

Lee Kuan Yew once referred to Australians as "the white trash of Asia".

Once during the Whitlam era Lee was late for a CHOGM. Very late. The other heads were becoming concerned. Gough said "Don't worry, he'll be here. He'd never miss a CHOGM - it's the closest he ever gets to democracy".

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 22:00 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Ian,

Lee Kuan Yew once referred to Australians as "the white trash of Asia".

Once during the Whitlam era Lee was late for a CHOGM. Very late. The other heads were becoming concerned. Gough said "Don't worry, he'll be here. He'd never miss a CHOGM - it's the closest he ever gets to democracy".

And your point is?

James,

I don't know if you have ever lived or been to Singapore, but I certainly would not apologise for how this country was run, and is still run. And I would chastise any Singaporean who did.

I lived through that dark period in Singapore's history and my brothers and I were almost made orphans at a tender age. Only God's grace prevented that from happening. This country, thanks to the Brits, was a sewer, average wages were a laugh and there were hoodlums, the communists, the triads and their lackeys at every corner. No weak leader would have been able to clean this place up.

It's nice to take pot shots at a country from the comfort of a safe distance, but many of our critics don't know their noses from their bottoms. They don't know what it is like to live between two large Muslim countries, forever taking pot shots and threatening us. They are ignorant of our politics, only theirs was supposed to be superior, but look where they are now!

But today the very people who wanted to drag us into the mud, are rushing to work or settle down here. Why? Because their families will be safe, walking in the streets alone at 3am in the morning here is safer than strolling in crowded Sydney in mid-afternoon ... because taxes are among the lowest in the world and because their kids can also get a good education here. But I am blowing my country's horn.

This country has been overcrowded a long time ago that it became a hot-button issue in last year's elections. More than one-fifth of the 5 million people here are foreigners and the infrastructure is at bursting point. No democracy? Ask them. There were 12,000 Australians living here four years ago and more are running here and today we have close to 50,000. Nice chaps, I say, but we've become the No1 destination for you guys to settle permanently, ask Nathan Tinkler, he's got a penthouse pad somewhere in town.

We are trying to stop the tide of foreigners from coming from all corners of the globe, they've got to realise there is only 700 square kilometres of space here and our "friendly" Muslim neighbours won't let us reclaim any more land ... something about the law of the sea, go figure.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 23:25 
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And James, let's put the "White trash" remark in perspective.

When LKY made that remark in 1980, it was in reply to a question by an Australian journalist about what he thought about the state of the economy of the country. Australia's focus was not on Asia, in terms of trade and almost everything, and the country's relations were conducted mainly with the old country in Europe and the US. He did not call Australia "white trash" but asserted that if Australia's course remain unchanged, it would end up that way. Today, Australia is focusing more on Asia ... and we wonder why.

In Bob Hawke's words from Cabinet papers stored in Australian archives:

Quote:
It's very difficult to overstate the extent of the economic challenge confronting Australia. It was perhaps best put by Lee Kuan Yew in 1980 when he said that if Australia went on the way it was, it would finish up becoming the poor white trash of Asia, and this was true.

On our PM's visit to Australia recently, the subject came up again:
Quote:
Remarks made by Mr Lee Kuan Yew about Australia some three decades ago got an unexpected airing in the Australian Capital on Thursday at a luncheon for Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong.

Both Australian PM Julia Gillard and opposition leader Tony Abbott cited remarks made by then PM Lee Kuan Yew in the 1970s that without economic reform, Australia risked becoming the “white trash of Asia”.

The references made were in good humour as both Australians reaffirmed their country’s strong ties with Singapore.Here are excerpts of their speeches:


Australian PM Julia Gillard:

“Prime Minister, Australians respect and enjoy straight talk. And Singapore’s leaders have always given us that...

But just as Australians admire the industry and the success of Singapore’s people, we do have a certain fondness for your remarkable founder (Mr Lee Kuan Yew), not in spite all his stern words about us, but perhaps because of them.
Over the decades, we came rather to look forward to Lee’s regular visits, and we’ll always welcome him again. For us, they have resembled the arrival of a respected if rather forbidding uncle, come to awaken us from our indolence and insist that we be our best selves. We never forgot his warning that without reform we would be the “White Trash of Asia”.

They were words which haunted a generation of Australian decision makers. It is not a future that an objective observer would foresee for Australia today. Both our two nations have changed a great deal in the intervening years. We have both grown in strength and prosperity, as leaders in the region and the world. Grown also in the friendship and respect between our nations and our people, and new generations have risen to national responsibility.
Australia remains not only friends with Singapore’s people but admirers of Singapore’s leaders. No nation commands a greater reputation for hard-headed, hardworking, far-sighted government."


Mr Tony Abbott:

“As the Prime Minister Gillard has reminded us, Sir, your father once made a rather astringent remark about Australia.
This put me into a terrible state of division and uncertainty. Because at about the same time as your father had made that remark, another one of my political heroes Margaret Thatcher said of Harry Lee, that he was, quote, “never wrong”.
I am pleased to observe that your father has since recanted on his adverse judgement of Australia, and so both Lee Kuan Yew and Margaret Thatcher can both once more take their place in my personal political pantheon.”

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 13:48 
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ianJM wrote:
He was tough on them, demanded a right of reply when they levelled accusations that were way off base. When they refused to print his reply, he sued them and they ran away. LKY can be accused of many things, but one thing he was admired for here was his refusal to allow western journalists to dictate how we ran our house.


Ian,
Plus...LKY didn't like their Beatles hair cuts? :wink:

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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 14:40 
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LASaxman wrote:
Do you mean, if the Texans acted really badly and got themselves expelled?


David,
And all the other states who want to secede. That would make quite a splash!


Quote:
Personally I think that everybody who signed such a petition should have their citizenship revoked. That would be one way of granting their wish. :wink:


That's the other side's (the Obama supporters') suggestion. But I don't think that'll work. Think everyone who loses his citizenship becomes an alien (an illegal?) living in U.S. territory.

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