Catholic Online Forum

Several stores, including Target and Walmart, are planning to start their "Black Friday" sales on Thanksgiving.

Good? Bad? Indifferent?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

<shrugs . . .> For me, indifferent — I won't be there whether it begins on Thursday, Friday or next week.

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Consumerism (unhealthy interest in material goods) creeps further and further into our culture.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

David,

Black Friday sales are the American equivalent of our Boxing Day sales. It really wouldn't make any sense to move ours and still call it a Boxing Day sale since it wouldn't be on Boxing Day (Lá Fhéile Stiofáin). On the one hand, I don't see much linguistic harm in moving the American commercial feast. But then, Thanksgiving is a very important celebration among Americans. It is a day Americans spend with their families. Americans who live and work in Australia (and presumably other countries as well) fly back to the US to be with their families.

Isn't there already more than sufficient that is anti-family in our dull and tacky commercial culture?

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Good for the stores, good for the shoppers who can't wait a day to dump their money, very bad for the employees being forced to work on Thanksgiving. I say let's bring back the Blue Laws!

_________________
BobA

I would tend to think so.

Store employees will have to work rather than be with their families.

OTOH, there have always been some businesses that stayed open - supermarkets, for instance.

And with the economy the way it is, there will be many people happy to work any day.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Nordstrom gets kudos from me for not even decorating for Christmas until the day after Thanksgiving and they have signs around the store saying they believe in celebrating one holiday at a time. Those who work in retail are often facing brutal working hours with often demanding and rude customers for the entire Christmas season and then after Christmas sales...I worked in retail once for the J C Pennys Catalogue department (during the cabbage doll frenzy...try explaining to people that the picture in the catalogue is just a picture and doesn't mean the warehouse still magically has them) and they should be able to enjoy that time with their families instead of being forced to work.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

David,

Will they be paid penalty rates? (Indeed, does the US have such a thing as penalty rates?)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_hol ... _Australia

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Overtime pay is typical for hourly (non-overtime exempt) workers who work on actual holidays. It is not required by law.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Actually, I think that still depends on the state. When I worked in NY and MA, those states both required employers to pay at least time and a half on Sundays regardless of whether overtime was actually worked. One of them may have only required time and a half of minimum wage rather than time and a half of the actual wage, but it was still more pay on Sundays and maybe certain state holidays as well.

Meanwhile, although Thanksgiving is a federal and bank holiday, it's not a Holy Day of Obligation or a Sunday. There's no reason we shouldn't shop on that day if stores were open.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Is it good for our culture to encourage people to work on major holidays, especially those of religious significance? I tend to think not.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

That's not to say that we shouldn't be grateful for the things we have in this most fortunate of countries, and I'm not suggesting that we encourage all our friends and neighbors to go out and practice avarice as soon as they're finished practicing their gluttony. What I'm saying is that it's neither a Sunday nor a Holy Day of Obligation, so for Catholics, it's not necessarily a day we oughtn't to work or ask others to work. A Catholic who shops regularly on Sundays and would never dream of doing so on Thanksgiving has it backwards.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

The whole idea is disgraceful. That the biggest retail shopping day is done on the back of a holiday that is supposed to be about giving thanks to God for blessings is disgusting. I saw that KMart is staying open until 3 a.m. on Friday morning. Insane consumerism!

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

We're going to Mass at 10 am on Thanksgiving, and won't be shopping on Black Friday. For me it's a time of rest.

_________________
Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

BobA,



I'm of the opinion that extending deals like this, making them earlier, and opening the store when no one else is open, is only good for the store until all the other stores follow suit. Then it's a wash. The whole idea is to sop up all the customers' money before a competitor can sop it up. Extended hours and wild deals during that time don't cause shoppers in general to spend more money. They simply shift when and where the shoppers spend their money, hopefully to a time when no competitors are open.

As soon as competitors (who study the sales of the "one-up-manship" stores) decide that they need to counter the advantage and they match (or outdo) the new hours, the advantage of being the only store open at a particular time disappears, and everyone is back to either offering steeper discounts than competitors to get the mobs into the doors (not necessarily profitable), or to finding more hours to be open when no one else is.

We are marching inevitably to stores being open for 96 straight hours from Thanksgiving Eve through Sunday night through Monday morning until employers demand that these shoppers go back to work.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,



Which is what is happening so there is no point. I've never and would never shop on black Friday but if I did, I would be writing the stores opening on Thanksgiving that I won't be participating because they're taking away the goodness of having employees available to be with their families. It wouldn't matter, it would take everyone complaining but I would do it nonetheless.

Just a point of interest, I was having a private message "conversation" with an online friend in Canada and he mentioned that there was a retail chain in Toronto that was playing Christmas music and the customers complained so they stopped. I don't know anyone who wants Christmas music played before Thanksgiving. For me, putting out the decorations and claiming Christmas sales turns me off and keeps me from shopping, not that I'm shopping this years anyways but in past years I did my essential shopping as quickly as possible and stayed away from the stores and started listening to Christmas music before Advent was over but very close to Christmas.. a couple of days before if I'm baking or cooking for Christmas or on Christmas eve before 10:00 midnight Mass.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Pssst .... it's way past Thanksgiving already in Canada.

_________________
squirt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Cardinal Dolan has chimed in:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/prayer_of_petition_this_thanksgiving_e2Za6ELv5qw1yrB3oDr2JP

Yikes.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Val,



Was it stopped because someone objected to Christmas music based on its religious connotation, or because it was too early.



My oldest daughter is one who loves Christmas music so much she can't wait for the music stations to start playing it on November 1.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

In one case that I recall seeing in the news, there were complaints about Christmas-like activities starting before Remembrance Day (the Canadian counterpart to Veteran's Day)

_________________
squirt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Good for them.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

He specifically said they complained because it was too early.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Squirt,

I know and he mentioned that and also mentioned it has no relationship to when Christmas stuff starts happening. They were just complaining it was too early for them and when Christmas stuff starts in Toronto wasn't mentioned.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Not me or any of my family.

_________________
Bob C

I enjoyed a couple years of Black Friday shopping, late at night. It was fun, and talking to people waiting in line was enjoyable.

I do not find the deals sufficiently compelling to be worth it anymore, especially with the deals you can get online through the year.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

I hate crowds, avoid them like the plague. Except for Christmas eve for some reason, I always enjoyed shopping then.

_________________
Bob C

If there is one thing for which I'm thankful, it's that my wife enjoys bargain hunting and does all the shopping. We severely limit gift giving to our parents and our children and pastors past and present only. We don't even buy gifts for each other in order to keep costs down.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Rose,



Not avarice, prodigality.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Right. It is the merchants who are practicing avarice.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

Merchants practicing avarice? How shocking!

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

There's a scene in Madmen I like very much. The Ad man from Madison is sitting at a table with a "hippie" who condescendingly and very arrogantly berates him for being in the advertising business, saying something, I don't recall what it was exactly, about how powerful advertisers are. He looks at her in disbelief and says something like, "Don't buy anything and we have no power at all."

It's that simple. Don't buy anything and they have no power at all.

What really bugs me about things like what the Cardinal says above is how pathetic it really is. Does he really believe we are all such "victims", such children? As though we are all at the mercy of Wall St. and Madison Avenue, unable to make decisions and value judgements for ourselves?

What does it matter to Christians what time secular stores choose to be open?

The reason stores didn't use to be open on Sundays or holidays is because a predominantly Christian people wouldn't shop on Sundays or family focused holidays and so it wasn't profitable to be open on those days.

The fact that secular stores now know that even people who call themselves Christian will put money before family and God is something our Cardinals should be ashamed of, for is it not they who are responsible for guiding us and teaching us about the true path?

Perhaps had they not bought into the wholesale Materialism of "Social Justice" we wouldn't be at this point where everyone things it's all about having stuff...

_________________
"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Actually, I am surprised that nobody has come to the defense of the companies. They are just doing what business is supposed to do. And if the employees don't like it they can always quit and find another job.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Well, there were also those pesky blue laws in many states and localities that prohibited stores from doing business on Sundays and holidays.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

A column by Monsignor Charles Pope:

http://blog.adw.org/2012/11/a-lament-on ... nksgiving/

Sums it up for me.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,

Yes, that it is a good commentary.

I want to say something about the picture caption. It is not really true. I mean it is true because only America has the Thanksgiving holiday followed by the Friday sales, but if other countries had such a juxtaposition, no doubt many of their citizens would do the same. I don't think Americans are any worse than any other nationality in this regard and I say that because I was once in a country when the rule of law broke down over night. And the first thing many people did was... LOOT shops.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace,

Yes, the caption to that photo is false.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

David,



The first part is true, they can quit; finding another job is another matter, especially with your economy in a mess.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James and Grace,

Good to know we're not the only idiots. Apparently there was a riot in a Walmart in Georgia over $2.00 waffle irons. When someone posted that on FB, with a video of the incident, my brother wrote, "I didn't even know Jesus liked waffles".

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

James,



I'm thinking maybe I should move to Australia to find a job. I have another four months before homelessness, living on my brother's couch in Atlanta or having my own bedroom at my cousin's in PA. Those are my offers so far. I don't like any of them very much. Oh, and my Pastor told me I can sleep in the church. I tried for one of the bungalows behind the rectory. They're very nice, the reason why we are such a popular destination for visiting priests.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,

http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/working-holiday/

Here's a copy of Life in Australia. Scroll down to the Statement of Values.

http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-austra ... h_full.pdf

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

You might look here before you buy your ticket:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/01backgd.htm

"Migrants are selected under the Migration Program in three streams—Skill, Family and Special Eligibility; while the Humanitarian Program offers resettlement to refugees and to displaced persons who have suffered discrimination amounting to gross violations of their human rights.
The rules for each, in general terms:
• Skill—most migrants must satisfy a points test, have particular work skills, be nominated by particular employers, have other links to Australia or have successful business or investment skills and bring sufficient capital to Australia to establish a business or investment of benefit to this country.
• Family—selected on the basis of the family relationship to a sponsor in Australia—usually partners, fiancés, dependent children and parents.
• Special eligibility—covers former residents who had not acquired Australian citizenship and are seeking to return to Australia as permanent residents.
• Humanitarian—refugees and other Humanitarian Program arrivals must satisfy the criteria concerning refugees or humanitarian cases"

It would appear on the surface , for all their picking at the US they are a bit selective themselves.

_________________
BobA

If they don't think they can find another job then they can stay, work extra hard, and button their lips.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

James,

Well, it looks like the working holiday is for younger people and now that I know you're my age (or more accurately, in less than a month I'll be your age), you probably think that you and I qualify as younger but trust me, we don't.

I wonder if we have a booklet that explains Americans also say "excuse me" when they belch.

I saw a picture of a sheep herder, maybe I can do that.

I like that eighteen year olds can drink in private homes and on private property. Very sensible law.

Fine values statement as well. I'm heading out tomorrow.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Bob A,



I'll go as a refugee, I'm being persecuted on Facebook for my political and religious beliefs.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Or maybe James could adopt you.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

James,



I think being adopted would really be the ideal. I always envied kids whose parents could help them financially....I started helping my mother at 18. But, I suspect James would be horrified by me in about two days. Or, I'd have to completely repress my personality like I try to do here.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,

I have a feeling this is one of those times I should remain silent.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

One good thing about Australia is that they are humane and compassionate toward Christian refugees fleeing Muslim persecution in their homelands in the M.E.
I know of several such families that could not get into the U.S. but were taken by Australia -- after years of suffering in limbo. Also I know of a few that got to go to Canada with the help of evangelical Christians.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

James,



You're a wiser man than I am.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla