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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 15:57 
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Barb,

Not to discount Fr. Angel's post, but here's the view from the other side California Central Valley. Victor Davis Hanson is a university professor with adult children married to Latinos and wildly crazy about his grandchildren.

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...Yet, aside from the always-sound advice to be civil, show empathy for the less well off, and avoid callous rhetoric, almost all such thinking is oversimplistic, if not flawed altogether.

In the first place, why do Republicans think their conservative message is a natural one for the majority of contemporary Latinos/Hispanics...?


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Had Republicans come out in favor of open borders and blanket amnesty, I doubt that they would have won the Latino vote ...Pundits can rail about supposedly naïve, out-of-touch Republicans who talked of self-deportation and thereby lost the Latino vote; but one just as easily might have castigated them for decrying out-of-control entitlements and food stamps, predicating legal immigration on education and skills, or criticizing unworkable and discriminatory affirmative-action policies, since these positions are also politicized as anti-Latino dog whistles.


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...But why do Republicans think Latinos are in any significant way opposed to continuing illegal immigration?

For the last 40 years, the influx of millions of illegal aliens leaving the impoverishment of Mexico by simply crossing the border, without much worry about U.S. law, has been a win/win situation for those already here. An expectation of cyclical amnesty or a general unwillingness of Americans to enforce their own laws is a magnet for millions in Latin America.

In the surreal world of American liberal orthodoxy, the nanosecond a young Mexican national crosses the border, he becomes immediately eligible for affirmative action — despite having little history of victimization by the United States or claim of contemporary bias.

In some 21 years of teaching at CSU Fresno I weekly mentored young illegal immigrants who were on federal and state scholarships, were recipients of the in-state tuition discount, and were courted by professional schools by virtue of being minority members with supposed historical claims against the majority.

Given the disparity between life in Mexico and life in the United States, why would a voting bloc give up such advantages — especially given that the larger the pool of unassimilated illegal immigrants, the greater the avenue for second- and third-generation Mexican-Americans to offer them collective representation and advance their own careers in government, media, and academia on the basis of collective ethnic grievances?


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For all the talk of family values and natural conservatism, there is not much evidence that rates of illegitimacy, crime, or divorce are much lower among Latinos than among the general population... Issues like abortion, gay marriage, and environmentalism have been successfully welded by the Latino leadership into a liberal package — at best, the price that Latino elites pay to white liberal counterparts for their support of amnesty and generous entitlements; at worst, because they believe these issues are a thorn in the side of the status quo establishment.


Read more HERE.

And note the solutions Prof. Hanson proposes after the model of Italian-Americans: "invest in the formidable powers of American assimilation, integration, and intermarriage." I think that includes knowledge of the English language. What do you think?

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 16:33 
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So, reading Fr. angel's post, which is fundamentally correct, the Latino voters are determined to keep in power a government that will financially, morally and ethically doom the US while at the same time, potentially damning their Latino souls to Hell! Great, that will fix those Republicans! It would not take much looking around to realize neither party has or is likely in the near future to do anything substantive to help illegal immigrants, both parties like the status quo just fine, a source of cheap labor for menial jobs. The Latinos have shot themselves in both feet and risked damnation in the process.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 16:48 
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BobA,

If Obama postures and succeeds only in getting more Republicans to come out against meaningful reform, but fails to pass something - he wins. If he actually presses for reform and gets it, even if a lot of Republicans come over, he wins big - very big. If he gets comprehensive reform that puts the issue to rest in a big way, even with Republican support, he wins the issue forever in political terms. Any way you slice it, he wins.

Pax et bonum,

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 16:51 
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brianjbyrne wrote:
BobA,

If Obama postures and succeeds only in getting more Republicans to come out against meaningful reform, but fails to pass something - he wins. If he actually presses for reform and gets it, even if a lot of Republicans come over, he wins big - very big. If he gets comprehensive reform that puts the issue to rest in a big way, even with Republican support, he wins the issue forever in political terms. Any way you slice it, he wins.

Pax et bonum,


Unless he loses, because the House stands firm.

Remember, any big initiatives will happen in the first year, as the second year is re-election time. If the Republicans can indeed stand firm, they will have won, as Obama will be a lame duck after 2014 (thank God).

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 17:05 
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Lou,

I don't see how you come to that conclusion, unless we're not talking about the same thing. On the issue of immigration, relative to the Hispanic vote, over the past four years, Obama promised a little and did nothing, while Republicans held firm, then Obama promised more in the election and Romney promised to hold firm, and Republicans lost big.

I'm suggesting if Obama merely provokes a response from Republicans and they hold firm, and Obama can blame them for no action, Obama holds the Hispanic vote - on that front he wins, both for himself and for his party. But if he succeeds in passing something, he will still get the credit, regardless of any Republican cooperation, and win even bigger. And if he marshals an historic reform, he and his party take the issue completely and probably with it a good chunk of the Hispanic vote, that might have gone either way, for a long time to come.

You think if Republicans hold back immigration reform, they win Hispanic votes? Or rather, you're saying Republicans win (not Hispanic votes - just win) by blocking any action on this front?

Pax et bonum,

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 17:11 
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brianjbyrne wrote:
Lou,

I don't see how you come to that conclusion, unless we're not talking about the same thing. On the issue of immigration, relative to the Hispanic vote, over the past four years, Obama promised a little and did nothing, while Republicans held firm, then Obama promised more in the election and Romney promised to hold firm, and Republicans lost big.

I'm suggesting if Obama merely provokes a response from Republicans and they hold firm, and Obama can blame them for no action, Obama holds the Hispanic vote - on that front he wins, both for himself and for his party. But if he succeeds in passing something, he will still get the credit, regardless of any Republican cooperation, and win even bigger. And if he marshals an historic reform, he and his party take the issue completely and probably with it a good chunk of the Hispanic vote, that might have gone either way, for a long time to come.

You think if Republicans hold back immigration reform, they win Hispanic votes? Or rather, you're saying Republicans win (not Hispanic votes - just win) by blocking any action on this front?

Pax et bonum,



Brian,

Romney lost because:

1. He couldn't credibly attack on Obamacare (because of RomneyCare)

2. He is a moderate. Every time we nominate one, we lose

3. He is a Mormon. He received 3 million less votes than did McCain, for crying out loud. Let alone Bush. The evangelicals/Tea Party stayed home (incredibly stupid move, IMO)

4. Everyone wanted in on "I voted for a black man". I'd have absolutely no problem with that, if Obama wasn't a socialist and anti-Catholic socialist to boot.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 17:23 
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Lou,

You may be right; my candidate was Santorum. You're definitely right on 1 and 2 - he didn't energize the base. I posted here I might not even vote myself back when he was closing in to take the nomination. I was so mad about Iowa. After he picked up Ryan, my enthusiasm rose to the level of half grudgingly adding a yard sign. Not so sure on 3, I don't think being a Mormon had a lot to do with it. On 4, I think there was more novelty the first time around. This time I think was more straight politics, but personality and identity were definitely important factors.

Still, on the Hispanic vote, this was a very big, potentially decisive election. There was an opportunity missed to lead strong that isn't likely to ever come again, and leaves Obama going from a failed record to a win, win big, win bigger formula on this issue with those voters.

Pax et bonum,

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 17:31 
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brianjbyrne wrote:
Still, on the Hispanic vote, this was a very big, potentially decisive election. There was an opportunity missed to lead strong that isn't likely to ever come again, and leaves Obama going from a failed record to a win, win big, win bigger formula on this issue with those voters.

Pax et bonum,

Hispanics are the largest minority group in the US

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Of a total population of nearly 309 million people, 16 percent are Hispanic.

And if that 16% votes as a block, it will sway any election.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 17:44 
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Well they may have solved the immigration problem. Another four years of President Obama and the U.S. will have no attraction for them. :(

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 18:04 
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gabriel wrote:
Well they may have solved the immigration problem. Another four years of President Obama and the U.S. will have no attraction for them. :(


If only the Congress would cut up his credit cards?

It is bad enough that there was been no annual budget passed in years; regardless, that spending plans are now instituted well beyond the terms in office of those imposing them. Spending limits and terms limits are all but irrelevant checks on the power of our federal government overlords who borrow premised upon supposed promised future returns on ideological socialist investments that have been historically proven epic failures.

Regardless what our posterity accomplishes in the future regarding removing the leftists from power they will be literally paying for the sins of the past UNLESS the easy access to credit is taken away from the leftists.

I pray the House of Representatives holds firm.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 20:51 
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brianjbyrne wrote:
BobA,

If Obama postures and succeeds only in getting more Republicans to come out against meaningful reform, but fails to pass something - he wins. If he actually presses for reform and gets it, even if a lot of Republicans come over, he wins big - very big. If he gets comprehensive reform that puts the issue to rest in a big way, even with Republican support, he wins the issue forever in political terms. Any way you slice it, he wins.

Pax et bonum,



I don't see any meaningful reform happening, Obama has built so much animosity between the Democrats and Republicans, who still control the House by the way, that any reasonable middle ground is unachievable. I've been wrong, just last week in fact, we will just have to wait.

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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 23:48 
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fr_sotelo wrote:
Although it is true that "self-interest" is part of the reason many in the Hispanic community voted for Obama, we must not forget the element of racism and bigotry that many have experienced in their fights with leaders and members of the Republican party.

President George W. Bush warned his fellow Republicans back in the 90's to argue about the need for law and order security, and the need to argue for welcoming immigrants in an orderly and lawful way, and for the need to balance the two issues. Keep the arguments about law. Keep the arguments about security. Keep the arguments about how to reform what is broken in the law so that the law is just.

He chided the Californian Republicans both publicly and privately for allowing Proposition 187 arguments (denial of all state services to those here illegally) to degenerate into "those people" salvos.

"Those people are sucking up the resources; those people are trashy; those people don't care about anyone but themselves; those people don't do anything but steal and break the law; those people are the worst thing to happen to California; it was so great here before those people got here and ruined everything." In California, back then, all discussions about illegal immigration started with arguing about the law and then quickly passed to arguing about how trashy, stupid, and lazy immigrants were (without always distinguishing between legal and illegal).

Bushed warned the GOP, and he said "You will rue the day. Once we convince 'those people' that we are the party of racist, hateful, bigoted, white supremacists, they will never forget the comments, the insults, the disparaging, the put-downs, and they will never forgive." In Texas, the GOP followed Bush's lead and took over state politics from the Democrats, who had kept Texas as a blue state for many years.

In California, GOP equals bigotry--white trash, filthy, racist pigs to the Hispanic community. And "those people's" kids and grandkids are now of voting age. And thanks to Pete Wilson and the GOP of the 90's, what was once a solid red, GOP state is so dyed in the wool blue that a Republican is lucky to be elected dog catcher in this state.

So, it is not just that Hispanics are voting "their interests." For them, every election is a fight against hateful racists (GOP). And the reactions against racism are extremely visceral, deep down in your gut, like when you are black and someone has burned a cross on your front lawn. It is not just looking at "interests" but at what has violated, demeaned and attacked you. That is what the GOP represents, for all its lofty ideals in favor of life and the traditional family.


Father,
You have such an angelic look in your latest photo, yet lately I have heard such bitter words against the Republican Party. If I treated poor Hispanics with the same "general hatred" as you describe from West Coast Hispanics, then where would there be room for mercy and compassion, generosity, and kindness. It seems as though California Hispanics have different attitudes than Eastern US Hispanics. Why is that? Didn't they come from the same place?

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 01:06 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
Father, You have such an angelic look in your latest photo, yet lately I have heard such bitter words against the Republican Party. If I treated poor Hispanics with the same "general hatred" as you describe from West Coast Hispanics, then where would there be room for mercy and compassion, generosity, and kindness. It seems as though California Hispanics have different attitudes than Eastern US Hispanics. Why is that? Didn't they come from the same place?


Schultzz:

My avatar looks angelic? Well, I am Fr. Angel. But angels don't have a particular "look." As a good Catholic, you should know better--the angels are invisible! LOL. Part of your problem in hearing "bitter words" from me is that you are misreading and misunderstanding my posts. So ask yourself these questions:

1) Do you believe what I have been posting about anti-GOP sentiment reflects my personal opinion and feelings?
2) Do you believe that I consider the GOP to be deserving of the losses which they suffered in this election?
3) Do you believe that I consider the Hispanic community to be angry at white people in general?

If you answered yes to either of those questions, you have misunderstand all the posts I wrote and need to go back and re-read them. I am simply a messenger who is communicating the feelings, sentiments, and opinions of the people I minister to in the Hispanic community. They are feeling anger, frustration, and a total disconnect with the GOP. Not anger with white people. Not even anger in general at life, because they're pretty happy people. The anger is directed at the politics and attitudes of one, particular political party.

So this is not a matter of Hispanics needing to be merciful and compassionate with white people or even all white Republicans. This is a matter of the Republican party needing to reach out to the Hispanic community and doing some fence mending and attitude adjustments if they want to be successful at the voting booth.

And if your East coast Hispanics were feeling any more positive with the GOP, they wouldn't have rejected the Republican party with the same numbers and percentages as the West coast Hispanics did. Hispanics are friendly no matter where you go. But being friendly is not the same as being pro-Republican.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 04:07 
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fr_sotelo wrote:
SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
Father, You have such an angelic look in your latest photo, yet lately I have heard such bitter words against the Republican Party. If I treated poor Hispanics with the same "general hatred" as you describe from West Coast Hispanics, then where would there be room for mercy and compassion, generosity, and kindness. It seems as though California Hispanics have different attitudes than Eastern US Hispanics. Why is that? Didn't they come from the same place?


Schultzz:
Quote:
Quote:
My avatar looks angelic? Well, I am Fr. Angel. But angels don't have a particular "look." As a good Catholic, you should know better--the angels are invisible!


Perhaps your angels are invisible, but the ones I see with my mind's eye are real enough looking. God's Angels are real and have energy which is so beautiful it would most likely kill a mere mortal to look upon them. They vibrate with such colors and musical harmonies from God's pure love whom they look upon. When you die and go to Heaven you will know what I speak of, but our mind portrays their image to be similar to how artists have portrayed them throughout time. Your avatar pic looks so innocent as I believe part of you is, and I receive an "image" of Angelic beauty, - but not the kind that one sees with their eyes. And now.. my dear Father, you know better, but to me you still sound a little bitter yourself. However, I totally agree with what you have said regarding the GOP.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 05:12 
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Hi Marie,

I am a big fan of Dr. Hanson's. Thanks for the link to his article. Here's another I think worth a read: Anatomies of Electoral Madness

I think he's quite right, especially after reading what Father Sotelo has shared with us. I don't think anything the Republican Party can say or do will allow it to "capture" the Latino vote in America. We should not pander to a population that so clearly is not in any way I can see "Republican." They are clearly Democrats. If the Republican Party is to stay true to its fundamental principles, it will just have to consider the Latino vote lost, until, as Dr. Hanson points out, its own population begins to fracture as the next generation does better economically. And until more Latinos decide to place higher principles over their own self-interest.

I don't believe the Republican Party should pander to any population that, as a whole, has so little respect for America or for Americans. Few things disgust me as much as ingratitude does and I don't share Father's view that their hatred of America is justified (or that it is only for the GOP). I have seen the parades in Chicago and elsewhere where they display that hatred so vehemently while continuing nonetheless to stay here and demand political and economic "rights" for those whose illegal status does not warrant them. Illegal Latino immigrants aren't the only ones who have a right to "Social Justice." So too do Americans, and taxpayers, and those who do not support those American corporations and businesses who illegally employ them. "Justice" means giving someone that which is due to him, to which he has a right. How is giving political and economic rights to a population that is attempting to steal them in any way what is called Justice?

God asks us to defend Truth and that which is right regardless of the consequences. To the extent that the Republican Party does that, we should support it. Even if it means we lose elections. If the Democrats keep winning through the nasty, divisive, "vote your own self-interest," disgusting kind of pandering that they do, well - so be it. "Blessed are they who suffer for my name's sake."

The Party should no more pander to self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Latinos than it should to self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Muslims and self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Pro-abortionists. Or to any other group that believes its own self-interest should prevail over everyone and everything else's, including the law and the principles upon which this nation was founded.

It was that kind of pandering attitude and approach taken by an entire generation of post-Vatican II priests and bishops that decimated the Roman Catholic Church in America.

We should learn from our mistakes.

God bless you, Marie -
Barb

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 09:33 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
Perhaps your angels are invisible, but the ones I see with my mind's eye are real enough looking. God's Angels are real and have energy which is so beautiful it would most likely kill a mere mortal to look upon them. They vibrate with such colors and musical harmonies from God's pure love whom they look upon. When you die and go to Heaven you will know what I speak of, but our mind portrays their image to be similar to how artists have portrayed them throughout time. Your avatar pic looks so innocent as I believe part of you is, and I receive an "image" of Angelic beauty, - but not the kind that one sees with their eyes. And now.. my dear Father, you know better, but to me you still sound a little bitter yourself. However, I totally agree with what you have said regarding the GOP.


Thank you Schulzz for the explanation of your very active imagination regarding angels. It explains why you are attempting to diagnose me as "a little bitter" based on an internet forum thread whose title is "Why Do You Think Obama Won?"

Are you perhaps still not answering the questions I posed? The questions about whether you understand that I'm a messenger who is posting the opinions I've been hearing from Hispanics? If you would just answer those questions, you might avoid thread drift and also the mistake of diagnosing people on the internet. I noticed you didn't mention them.

If you have an opinion on what Republicans should do in response to Obama's win a week ago, I would be interested in hearing it. Otherwise, please start a new thread. It could be titled, "I am the real Miss Cleo. I read people's minds." There you can begin to tell everyone on the forum how bitter or happy you think we all are. But this thread is about Obama's win, and why he won. I don't mind having my mental and emotional outlook on life discussed and diagnosed, but I would prefer that it happen in person, in someone's professional office, based on facts and evidence.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 09:45 
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Barb wrote:
The Party should no more pander to self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Latinos than it should to self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Muslims and self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Pro-abortionists. Or to any other group that believes its own self-interest should prevail over everyone and everything else's, including the law and the principles upon which this nation was founded.

Barb,

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I do not recommend that the core values of the GOP which are American and righteous should be watered down. But I vehemently disagree with Dr. Hanson's generalizations of the Hispanic community. And I have no doubt that with time, they will assimilate more and more, into American life. But we can't wait for their total melting in and assimilation before we reach out to them. The GOP has failed abysmally to reach out to Hispanics and educate them with the GOP platform. In this vacuum, the Democrats have rushed in and focused on racist elements within the party in order to demonize the GOP. As a methodology for winning and educating, the GOP needs to proactively go into the Hispanic community and expose clearly how it has been lied to and that the Democrats are not the great saviors they portray themselves to be.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 10:15 
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Hi Father,

I agree! I think the GOP can do a better job of reaching out and educating the Hispanic community in America about what it stands for and why and how it, rather than the Democrat Party, can actually better meet their true needs.

BTW... I stumbled upon your Tumblr page the other day and must say I am so impressed with the wonderful work you're doing there! I very much enjoyed the exchanges. Now when I go through one of my "I so miss reading Father's Sotelo's posts", I have a place to go! :)

God bless you Father!

With Love and Prayers,
Barb

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 10:28 
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Barb wrote:
The Party should no more pander to self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Latinos than it should to self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Muslims and self-interested, self-righteous, anti-American Pro-abortionists. Or to any other group that believes its own self-interest should prevail over everyone and everything else's, including the law and the principles upon which this nation was founded.

The GOP already panders to a long list of special interests whose primary concern is their own self-interest. Although they are, by and large, different groups from those the Democrats pander to.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 10:32 
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Hi Barb,

Oh, that Tumblr page! Nothing is so darned challenging as dealing with college kids these days when they want to fight and argue!! I have learned so much about the new feminism, and just the way young people in general are being hoodwinked at university. It has been quite an eye opener and challenge.

Coming back to this Forum is such a joy and relief after dealing on Tumblr with the tank of Kool-Aid I have to swim in LOL! For those who want to see what I've been up to on Tumblr, you can find me at fatherangel.tumblr.com.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 10:34 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
It seems as though California Hispanics have different attitudes than Eastern US Hispanics. Why is that? Didn't they come from the same place?
Schultzz,

It seems obvious to me that the answer to your (possibly rhetorical) question is "no", they didn't come from the same place. Hispanics come from many different places, and those who end up in Eastern US tend to be from different places than those in the West.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 10:43 
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Barb wrote:
BTW... I stumbled upon your Tumblr page the other day and must say I am so impressed with the wonderful work you're doing there! I very much enjoyed the exchanges. Now when I go through one of my "I so miss reading Father's Sotelo's posts", I have a place to go! :)

God bless you Father!


Barb,
I did, too - and WOW! Father is really doing great evangelizing work with young people there. And so refreshing.

God bless you, Fr. Angel. May your tribe (of angels) increase. :)

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 11:23 
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Barb wrote:
I think the GOP can do a better job of reaching out and educating the Hispanic community in America about what it stands for and why and how it, rather than the Democrat Party, can actually better meet their true needs.


Barb,
I'm not as optimistic as you. If Bishops and pastors can't reach the Hispanic community on the seriousness of life, family, and religious liberty issues, how can Republicans?

For example, on the surface, Stockton Bishop Blair seems to favor continued welfare entitlements over pro-life and traditional marriage issues. I am not too familiar with the Bishop's beef against the proposed Ryan budget, but I knew he opposed it. But does he publicly oppose the pro-abort platform of (Catholic) Democrat senators and congressmen in his diocese? Umm, no.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 11:39 
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Marie:

I agree with Barb. And actually, the GOP could do a much better job of marketing their positions. In the pulpit, we are not allowed to discuss the platform of the GOP, so ability to point Catholics toward a GOP vote is extremely limited. But the GOP could certainly point out their own positions to the Hispanic community.

Do you know that Mitt Romney, even in areas of heavily Hispanic districts, never ran any adds on himself as the pro-life candidate who is against abortion and would appoint pro-life judges? Never. Not one time. Do you know that Democratic precinct workers constantly tell Hispanics they are the "pro-life" party? Of course, they mean it in the sense of pro-life if you're already born. But many of the Hispanics do not know this. In districts where Republicans have voted against free pre-natal care for poor women, Democrats have told Hispanics "this is because they are hoping poor women will get abortions and only rich, white women will have babies." So in the mind of some Hispanics, it is the GOP that is the "pro-abortion" party!

That is just one area where a better outreach of the GOP on their American values would really help increase the vote in their favor. But all the GOP talks about is how they're going to make the economy better, which feeds the stereotype that they worry about money and the rich.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 11:41 
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Schultzz,

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It seems as though California Hispanics have different attitudes than Eastern US Hispanics. Why is that? Didn't they come from the same place?


Many East Coast Hispanics come from the islands, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic and Cuba.. perhaps others I can't think of though more Mexicans and Central Americans are migrating East. I recall many in Chicago though I realize that's not the coast. The Puerto Ricans are already a part of America and the Cubans traditionally tended towards conservatism ... .I think because they see the GOP as more staunchly anti-Castro than the Democrats. I don't know if they are still more demographically conservative nowadays though.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 11:48 
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For the record, I am not "bitter." My very Hispanic parish and my Hispanic county votes GOP. We are one of the few "red" spots in a dark, navy blue state! Thank you very much. I'm holding up things on my end.

No friends. I am not bitter at all with the GOP. Mitt Romney was the better candidate for president in my view, and my feeling at his loss is very profound sadness. He would have been a great president, I think. So along with sadness, I'm kind of flabbergasted at what the GOP does not do to get out their message. And in the case of the Hispanic community, I know that this message will resound when they speak of their values of sanctity of life, hard work, less government, and responsible communities.

Val:
I don't have the statistics researched. But I was told by a friend that from Maine to Florida, the Mexicans even there outnumber every other Latino group if you're looking at the entire Eastern seaboard plus the southern states. In North Carolina and Georgia, for instance, the bishops say their biggest Marian celebration is Our Lady of Guadalupe.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 11:56 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
... It seems as though California Hispanics have different attitudes than Eastern US Hispanics. Why is that? Didn't they come from the same place?
I recall discussing this many years ago back East. Someone commented on the difference between Costa Rican and Mexican immigrants. We concluded that it is not the nationality, but the way they got here. It is a different type of person who risks all in a leaky boat across the Caribbean than the one who just steps across an invisible line in Arizona. Not to disparage anyone, but they have different attitudes and dreams in their migration.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 12:58 
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fr_sotelo wrote:
SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
Perhaps your angels are invisible, but the ones I see with my mind's eye are real enough looking. God's Angels are real and have energy which is so beautiful it would most likely kill a mere mortal to look upon them. They vibrate with such colors and musical harmonies from God's pure love whom they look upon. When you die and go to Heaven you will know what I speak of, but our mind portrays their image to be similar to how artists have portrayed them throughout time. Your avatar pic looks so innocent as I believe part of you is, and I receive an "image" of Angelic beauty, - but not the kind that one sees with their eyes. And now.. my dear Father, you know better, but to me you still sound a little bitter yourself. However, I totally agree with what you have said regarding the GOP.


Thank you Schulzz for the explanation of your very active imagination regarding angels. It explains why you are attempting to diagnose me as "a little bitter" based on an internet forum thread whose title is "Why Do You Think Obama Won?"

Are you perhaps still not answering the questions I posed? The questions about whether you understand that I'm a messenger who is posting the opinions I've been hearing from Hispanics? If you would just answer those questions, you might avoid thread drift and also the mistake of diagnosing people on the internet. I noticed you didn't mention them.

If you have an opinion on what Republicans should do in response to Obama's win a week ago, I would be interested in hearing it. Otherwise, please start a new thread. It could be titled, "I am the real Miss Cleo. I read people's minds." There you can begin to tell everyone on the forum how bitter or happy you think we all are. But this thread is about Obama's win, and why he won. I don't mind having my mental and emotional outlook on life discussed and diagnosed, but I would prefer that it happen in person, in someone's professional office, based on facts and evidence.


Father,
Thank you for your reply and explanation. No, I do not attempt to analyze anyone on this site, I wasn't reaching that far. I was just reacting to how you have been responding to my original thread of "Why Do You Think Obama Won.?" I am glad you are not bitter and appreciate you taking the time to clarify that. I was NOT diagnosing you but responding to what you wrote and how you wrote it. I have never heard you speak so vehemently before about what you may have heard from your parishioners, that's all. I do think there is a difference in Hispanics who settle in the eastern portion of the US. Perhaps it is because of the way they are treated or the fact that they do not want to discuss their opinions of the GOP. However, they still come from the same country of Mexico and most likely crossed at a similar location. We do have some who come from Guatemala too. Father Angelo. My humblest apologies if I have offended you.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 13:04 
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I don't think it's a matter of marketing. It's a matter of who has a message the people want to hear.

The Democratic message in general is "Don't worry, we'll take care of you." The Republican message in general is, "You can make it with hard work and the occasional boost."

We're currently at a point where more people would rather the former situation than the latter.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 13:08 
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Fr. Angel,

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Val:
I don't have the statistics researched. But I was told by a friend that from Maine to Florida, the Mexicans even there outnumber every other Latino group if you're looking at the entire Eastern seaboard plus the southern states. In North Carolina and Georgia, for instance, the bishops say their biggest Marian celebration is Our Lady of Guadalupe.


That's interesting and I would never have guessed that about Georgia. I went to Atlanta last October and spent four days with my brother there and never encountered a Hispanic. Perhaps I was in the wrong neighborhoods and I was told they were all in one particular community. My brother had been there less than a year though and may not have known.

It was a very different experience for me to be waited on by so many blacks and whites and to see them as busboys. One of the things that made me wonder if Americans were really that unwilling to take those kinds of jobs.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 15:41 
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The real question for us is how do we get those who voted for Obama back to being real Catholics? I don't care how pious they come across, they have a serious problem understanding the teaching of the Church, they didn't even listen when the sermons were in Spanish by Latino priests!

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:06 
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bali wrote:
The real question for us is how do we get those who voted for Obama back to being real Catholics? I don't care how pious they come across, they have a serious problem understanding the teaching of the Church, they didn't even listen when the sermons were in Spanish by Latino priests!


BobA:

Is there a reason you think the Spanish speaking didn't listen to their priests? Is there some source for that? According to my friends at the county, my parishioners were definitely listening and went with Romney. Of course, if the sermons are vague with "vote for your neighbor" platitudes, that would be reason for anyone not to connect the dots and get confused--not just the Spanish speaking.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:12 
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bali wrote:
The real question for us is how do we get those who voted for Obama back to being real Catholics? I don't care how pious they come across, they have a serious problem understanding the teaching of the Church, they didn't even listen when the sermons were in Spanish by Latino priests!


Not quickly, not through half-true memes on Facebook, not starting from a position that they are evil or stupid, and not shouting at them in comboxes. I get so much of this from my Facebook friends that it takes all of my patience to keep from responding in kind (I don't respond at all because, even if the person to whom I would respond would take it charitably, his other friends whom I don't know probably wouldn't).

If we are going to have any success at all, it's necessary first to ensure we are "real Catholics," and that we are joyful "real Catholics." Second, we need to establish trusting relationships with these persons, based on something we have in common already with them. Third, we need to be willing to spend years gently bringing them around, so that it isn't obvious we're trying to effect conversion. Fourth, we need to realize that we don't have all the answers and perhaps our way isn't the best way sometimes.

The bottom line is, it takes time and relationship, neither of which many of us are willing to invest in people with whom we disagree. And that goes for both sides of an issue.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:27 
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fr_sotelo wrote:
bali wrote:
The real question for us is how do we get those who voted for Obama back to being real Catholics? I don't care how pious they come across, they have a serious problem understanding the teaching of the Church, they didn't even listen when the sermons were in Spanish by Latino priests!


BobA:

Is there a reason you think the Spanish speaking didn't listen to their priests? Is there some source for that? According to my friends at the county, my parishioners were definitely listening and went with Romney. Of course, if the sermons are vague with "vote for your neighbor" platitudes, that would be reason for anyone not to connect the dots and get confused--not just the Spanish speaking.


Father, the voting breakdowns I have read indicate the Latino Catholic vote was 70% to 75% for Obama in a large number of areas, one national poll indicated 75% but I don't know how statically valid that was.

I attended Mass only a couple of times before the election at our "second" parish in Durango, CO, which is predominately Latino and those homilies were not at all strongly worded. I'll be over there again in a couple of weeks and I'll be interested to hear the coffee and donut discussions as well as the homily. The priest there is a Theatine Priest if that means anything in terms of specifically preaching to the Hispanic congregation, it shouldn't matter in terms of defining the hierarchy of issues from abortion down through immigration reform. Somehow the message appears to gotten lost or was misunderstood.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:36 
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Bob,

I suspect the message just wasn't communicated in a forceful way, as was the case in many English speaking congregations as well.

It is another symptom of how the Church has not mobilized yet, which is sad but understandable. For 80 years most of the clergy have considered the Democratic party to be the great friend of the poor and needy.

Even during the debates on Obamacare, most bishops appeared staunchly in favor. So it is hard to all of a sudden, in a year's time, to convince the Catholic electorate after almost a century that somehow the Democrats are bad for the poor and needy and for the Church. I imagine it is like steering the Titanic even though you clearly see you are heading into an iceberg.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:38 
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fr_sotelo wrote:

Even during the debates on Obamacare, most bishops appeared staunchly in favor. So it is hard to all of a sudden, in a year's time, to convince the Catholic electorate after almost a century that somehow the Democrats are bad for the poor and needy and for the Church. I imagine it is like steering the Titanic even though you clearly see you are heading into an iceberg.


Father,

EXACTLY! It just looked bad that the Bishops seemed to be all for Obamacare, until it was their ox being (pardon the pun) gored.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:42 
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fr_sotelo wrote:
Bob,

I suspect the message just wasn't communicated in a forceful way, as was the case in many English speaking congregations as well.

It is another symptom of how the Church has not mobilized yet, which is sad but understandable. For 80 years most of the clergy have considered the Democratic party to be the great friend of the poor and needy.

Even during the debates on Obamacare, most bishops appeared staunchly in favor. So it is hard to all of a sudden, in a year's time, to convince the Catholic electorate after almost a century that somehow the Democrats are bad for the poor and needy and for the Church. I imagine it is like steering the Titanic even though you clearly see you are heading into an iceberg.


I understand Father. I'm afraid it will take me a while to settle down in light of the importance of this election, at the moment I'm pretty angry and deeply disappointed with about 50% of my fellow Catholics of all nationalities. I remember being puzzled in 2008 at hearing homilies that actually appeared to invite votes for Obama at both parishes but I thought the message was pretty uniform and left little doubt this time.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:58 
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Bob A,

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I'm pretty angry and deeply disappointed with about 50% of my fellow Catholics of all nationalities.


Save it for those of US nationality; they're the only ones who voted.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 17:05 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Bob A,

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I'm pretty angry and deeply disappointed with about 50% of my fellow Catholics of all nationalities.


Save it for those of US nationality; they're the only ones who voted.


Perhaps I should have said national origin or heritage, didn't think it would be confusing.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 18:04 
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fr_sotelo wrote:
Hi Barb,

Oh, that Tumblr page! Nothing is so darned challenging as dealing with college kids these days when they want to fight and argue!! I have learned so much about the new feminism, and just the way young people in general are being hoodwinked at university. It has been quite an eye opener and challenge.


Father,

It is not just in Universities where kids are being indoctrinated by the State. The public school system K through 12 is increasingly being taken over.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 18:29 
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fr_sotelo wrote:
Do you know that Mitt Romney, even in areas of heavily Hispanic districts, never ran any adds on himself as the pro-life candidate who is against abortion and would appoint pro-life judges? Never. Not one time. Do you know that Democratic precinct workers constantly tell Hispanics they are the "pro-life" party? Of course, they mean it in the sense of pro-life if you're already born. But many of the Hispanics do not know this. In districts where Republicans have voted against free pre-natal care for poor women, Democrats have told Hispanics "this is because they are hoping poor women will get abortions and only rich, white women will have babies." So in the mind of some Hispanics, it is the GOP that is the "pro-abortion" party!


No, Father, I didn't know. I thought I was done hurting. What a shame. I'm very sorry.

Quote:
For the record, I am not "bitter." My very Hispanic parish and my Hispanic county votes GOP. We are one of the few "red" spots in a dark, navy blue state! Thank you very much. I'm holding up things on my end.


Father, I'm sure, so was my parish. We have a lot of 40-Days-for-Life volunteers and Eucharistic adorers among the Hispanics and I know they didn't vote Obama.

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No friends. I am not bitter at all with the GOP. Mitt Romney was the better candidate for president in my view, and my feeling at his loss is very profound sadness. He would have been a great president, I think. So along with sadness, I'm kind of flabbergasted at what the GOP does not do to get out their message. And in the case of the Hispanic community, I know that this message will resound when they speak of their values of sanctity of life, hard work, less government, and responsible communities.


Father, I share your sadness and pain. God bless you.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 18:55 
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Dean wrote:
bali wrote:
The real question for us is how do we get those who voted for Obama back to being real Catholics? I don't care how pious they come across, they have a serious problem understanding the teaching of the Church, they didn't even listen when the sermons were in Spanish by Latino priests!


Not quickly, not through half-true memes on Facebook, not starting from a position that they are evil or stupid, and not shouting at them in comboxes. I get so much of this from my Facebook friends that it takes all of my patience to keep from responding in kind (I don't respond at all because, even if the person to whom I would respond would take it charitably, his other friends whom I don't know probably wouldn't).

If we are going to have any success at all, it's necessary first to ensure we are "real Catholics," and that we are joyful "real Catholics." Second, we need to establish trusting relationships with these persons, based on something we have in common already with them. Third, we need to be willing to spend years gently bringing them around, so that it isn't obvious we're trying to effect conversion. Fourth, we need to realize that we don't have all the answers and perhaps our way isn't the best way sometimes.

The bottom line is, it takes time and relationship, neither of which many of us are willing to invest in people with whom we disagree. And that goes for both sides of an issue.

This is truth. And wisdom.

And in my experience, not heeded. It is so much easier to do the bolded than to do the underlined.

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 20:17 
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I am afraid I don't share much of your optimism concerning the Democrats being turned around by Catholics or anyone else. No, Obama will take us down the deep dark hole toward Communism and when all these misguided puppets see that their votes made them suffer the most, then the grassroots revolution will begin. Unfortunately I don't think I will live to see it for it will take too long.
Socialization ALWAYS leads to Marxism and then to Communism and then to failure through much tyrannical suffering at the hands of innocents. Folks, this is not the beginning of the end, it is the continuation of the end. We thought Communism was dead but it has been hiding here in the USA. Hiding and growing, and has just received the green light to come out in force. Be careful who you speak to about criticizing the government and Obama for we will soon become the "them".

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 21:08 
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Mitt Romney, in his first remarks since an unexpectedly lopsided election loss to Barack Obama, blamed his defeat on "gifts" showered by the president on his female, African-American and Hispanic supporters.

A little more than a week after the election, Mr Romney, in a phone call with his national finance committee, accused Mr Obama of following the "old playbook" by bestowing favours on key Democratic constituencies in exchange for their support at the ballot box.

"In each case they were very generous in what they gave to those groups," said the defeated Republican presidential nominee, adding that young voters were also among the beneficiaries of Mr Obama's largesse.

"With regards to the young people, for instance, a forgiveness of college loan interest, was a big gift."



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Among the goodies Mr Romney said Mr Obama gave to his backers were "free contraceptives", which were very big with young college-aged women.

The president's controversial health care reform plan was another campaign plum that helped secure the youth vote, Mr Romney said.

"Obamacare also made a difference for them, because as you know, anybody now 26 years of age and younger was now going to be part of their parents' plan, and that was a big gift to young people," Mr Romney told his backers.

"They turned out in large numbers, a larger share in this election even than in 2008," he said.



Quote:
But in addition to young voters, minorities rallied around Mr Obama, with 93 per cent of African Americans, 71 per cent of Hispanics and 72 per cent of Asians casting a ballot for the president.

Mr Romney said the perks on offer were particularly tempting to low-income voters.

"You can imagine for somebody making $25,000 or $30,000 or $35,000 a year, being told you're now going to get free health care - particularly if you don't have it - getting free health care worth, what, $10,000 per family, in perpetuity," Mr Romney said.

"I mean, this is huge."



Quote:
For Latinos, "free health care was a big plus", Mr Romney said during the 20-minute call.

"But in addition with regards to Hispanic voters, the amnesty for children of illegals, the so-called Dream Act kids, was a huge plus for that voting group," he said, referring to a program introduced by the president this year allowing some undocumented youths to temporarily remain legally in the US.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-15/r ... ma/4373674

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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 21:53 
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James. Did you view this yet? http://vimeo.com/52009124

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Hi Schultzz,

I started to watch that and it looks like a good film I'm going to watch in its entirety, though I don't have time to do so this morning. I got to the point where the narrator said that those seeking socialist solutions are either ignorant or evil and it reminded me of a short little Ted talk I very much enjoy. I think it's a fine thing to view every now and again, just as a reminder that maybe we need to think about that "ignorant or evil" a little more deeply. At any rate, here's the link. I do love this little talk and hope you enjoy it as well!

On Being Wrong

God bless,
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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 08:24 
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Barb wrote:
Hi Schultzz,

I started to watch that and it looks like a good film I'm going to watch in its entirety, though I don't have time to do so this morning. I got to the point where the narrator said that those seeking socialist solutions are either ignorant or evil and it reminded me of a short little Ted talk I very much enjoy. I think it's a fine thing to view every now and again, just as a reminder that maybe we need to think about that "ignorant or evil" a little more deeply. At any rate, here's the link. I do love this little talk and hope you enjoy it as well!

On Being Wrong

God bless,
Barb



It didn't make very much sense to me. I am often wrong about many things and admit when I am. One of the best lessons I learned a while back is that I don't always have to be right. Knowing the difference between right and wrong doesn't make you either. It's all about which one you choose and where it takes you. When you view the rest of the video you may see why those two choices are the only ones presented.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 13:02 
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bali wrote:
I'm afraid it will take me a while to settle down in light of the importance of this election, at the moment I'm pretty angry and deeply disappointed with about 50% of my fellow Catholics of all nationalities. I remember being puzzled in 2008 at hearing homilies that actually appeared to invite votes for Obama at both parishes but I thought the message was pretty uniform and left little doubt this time.


BobA,

I am so sorry. I feel just as dejected. We have much praying to do.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 17:09 
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Schultzz,

Quote:
Did you view this yet?


No. It won't work.

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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 18:00 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Schultzz,

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Did you view this yet?


No. It won't work.



http://vimeo.com/52009124

It works for me but if it doesn't work for you
try copying it and pasting it.

_________________
Pax et Bonum


Schultzz


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