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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 11:34 
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Some years ago I realized that the influence and finances of Middle East Oil countries depend heavily on their "proven" reserves. It appears to me that the proof is self-generated.

WikiLeaks cables: Saudi Arabia cannot pump enough oil to keep a lid on prices seem to confirm that.
Quote:
US diplomat convinced by Saudi expert that reserves of world's biggest oil exporter have been overstated by nearly 40%...

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 12:02 
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It's my worry that the mother of all energy shocks is shortly coming as soon as the global economy recovers. Alternative energy sources will be developed much more quickly than we imagine, driven by private industry, because there is just no way the world's oil supply will accommodate billions of new middle-class consumers.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 12:19 
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Dean wrote:
It's my worry that the mother of all energy shocks is shortly coming as soon as the global economy recovers. Alternative energy sources will be developed much more quickly than we imagine, driven by private industry, because there is just no way the world's oil supply will accommodate billions of new middle-class consumers.


There have been viable alternate energy technologies which have been either bought up or confiscated or worse by certain entities to protect those served by the oil industry. This is not BS. I don't mean government subsidised ethanol either. Whether we provide our own oil or buy it the oil companies make billions off of us. I doubt that will change dependent on oil prices. Gas could go as high as ten dollars a gallon with limited supplies and very little motiviation to develop alternate sources due to the entrenched powers which currently control the petroleum market.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 12:26 
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Schultzz,

When the price of energy becomes a political issue because enough people are terribly impacted by it, and elected officials are threatened with removal from office, it is my belief the oil industry will lose its grip over innovation and bringing to market of new energy sources. The difference so far is that most people have been able to absorb the price of energy. That will change soon, and people will be angry.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 12:46 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
There have been viable alternate energy technologies which have been either bought up or confiscated or worse by certain entities to protect those served by the oil industry. This is not BS.

Yes, it is BS. I don't believe all the snake oil about "the oil companies bought up that technology and BANNED IT!"

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 13:59 
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Kardinal wrote:
SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
There have been viable alternate energy technologies which have been either bought up or confiscated or worse by certain entities to protect those served by the oil industry. This is not BS.

Yes, it is BS. I don't believe all the snake oil about "the oil companies bought up that technology and BANNED IT!"


O contrare prove me wrong. What viable technology is available? Electric? Steam? Plasma? Hydrogen? Alt Fuels? Gasifiacation generator? Give evidence for your refutation or joing the ranks of the elite group of BS sers.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 14:03 
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Sorry, burden of proof is on the asserter. You claim the oil companies have suppressed technology. Prove it.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 14:08 
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Kardinal wrote:
Sorry, burden of proof is on the asserter. You claim the oil companies have suppressed technology. Prove it.


Ahah! As suspected you know little about current technologies. Unfortunately, your "hot air" will not be enough to advance your refutation nor improve the energy crisis! :)

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 14:16 
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Gentlemen!.............take it outside please.

First of all the "proof" in this forum has always been the responsibility of the asserter. Second of all, the term BS is generally not acceptable language here.

Enough already!

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 14:25 
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JMJ

Friends,

there is no conspiracy and there is no shortage. There is an openly proclaimed political agenda, which descends from the anti-human culture taht is killing the west, and it is wrong on many levels, energy policy included.

We have all the oil we need. The only reason why it is not available at reasonable prices is the nonsensical restrictions on drilling. They are not justified by real environmental concerns but on the explicit will to cripple the "unfair" technological advantage of the west and/or to remake the world beginning from the centralized planning of the economy. It's ideology pure and simple, like the "population bomb", the man-made global cooling hoax (in the 70s), the man-made ozone-layer hole, the man-made global warming hoax (80s to present) and all the recurring scares with which we're told we're gonna die tomorrow unless we implement the most absurd policies NOW. The same political idiocy that is forcing on us those extremely dangeorus, polluting, expensive and job-killing, China-made, mercury lightbulbs in place of one of the iconic American contributions to human progress and comfort: Thomas Alva Edison's incandescent lightbulb. That idiocy and the war on political and economic freedom is what is preventing the world from enjoyng the benefits of the immense and untapped oil fields of this planet which, for the US alone, would be enough to send the Middle East tyrants back to barter economy. The oil that is in minuscule parts of Alaska, Utah, the Rockies, the Coast of California, Texas and the Gulf, is enough to provide cheap fuel for at least another couple of centuries to make America and its allies energy-independent, to give enough time and ease for human ingenuity, free research and the market to develop serious alternatives - should the need arise - without the comrades of the EPA turning the US into Zimbabwe, and the rest of us with it. All that, while forcing the taxpayer to subsidize failures like electric cars that give you a couple dozen miles - if there are no hills and it's not February in Minnesota - and then you have to recharge them by using coal and oil-produced energy (and, the extremely polluting batteries have to be bought at a dear price from S. Korea as their production process is in breach of enviromental regulations in the west. Puh-leeze!). In the meantime, the reduced production of wheat due to subsidized ethanol is causing food shortages and skyrocketing prices of bread in the third world - because we care for the poor - and the erosion of good land - because we care for the environment (dang, I'm drifting again).

Oil is abundant, relatively easy to find and transform in a safe and clean way. If only the government stayed away from it. No, the recent spill in the Gulf is not an argument. The reason why it took so long to plug it is that because of the absurd regulations imposed by government agencies, oil rigs have been forced to go farther and farther away form the coast, where oil fields are thousands and thousands of yards down under the sea level. Between the depth of the sea, the water pressure, the currents, a simple intervention of one hour on land or shallow waters requires weeks, especially if incompentent theoreticians and ideologues instead of real men are in charge of the operations.

And, mother nature absorbed most of it anyway. And, the rig that exploded was the only one OK'd by an adminstration of fanatic tree-huggers who'd skipped the rigorous procedures of their predecessors. And, the BP is the typical liberal big-business in cahoots with big goverment in defiance of the rule of law and all the conditions for a truly free market. BP has been for years pushing for "renewable energies" and similar frauds (and the taxpayer money they guarantee) and it is one of the biggest contributors of the campaign of the deity that blessed the Earth with his presence among such unworty mortals. It is also a big "donor" to all the worst anti-family campaigns around the world, but I digress. All of the above is on public records, there is no need for conspiracy theories. And, now you have a moratory that is not only killing hundreds of thousands jobs in the Gulf - just as China, Vietnam, Iran and all the other enemies of the west are multiplying their rigs in the same waters - but is necessarily helping the prices of oil to go up, as there is less of it available for us and more for these emerging powers that need oil to build up their own industrial might. An industrial growth that is currently paid for (mostly) by the American taxpayer via interests on the debt. The interest on the debt, not the debt, currently owed to China is roughly the cost of the entire Armed Forces of the People's Republic. As Lenin used to say, "the capitalists will sell us the rope we'll use to hang them". He was of course wrong like all commies, but only partially: if the US returned to really free markets and limited governement, it would not owe such huge money to a third world tyranny. And, Americans are not even selling the rope with which the Chicoms will hang us all, they are paying for it, and a million times its real price at that.

There is plenty of oil, and oil IS the clean energy. Oil is not the problem. Politics is.

There, I said it. Let the stoning begin. :)

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 14:51 
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BobC wrote:
Moderators Comment


Gentlemen!.............take it outside please.

First of all the "proof" in this forum has always been the responsibility of the asserter. Second of all, the term BS is generally not acceptable language here.

Enough already!

BobC
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Must be cabin fever. I apologize Jeff.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 14:59 
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pilgrim wrote:
JMJ

Friends,

there is no conspiracy and there is no shortage. There is an openly proclaimed political agenda, which descends from the anti-human culture taht is killing the west, and it is wrong on many levels, energy policy included.

We have all the oil we need. The only reason why it is not available at reasonable prices is the nonsensical restrictions on drilling. They are not justified by real environmental concerns but on the explicit will to cripple the "unfair" technological advantage of the west and/or to remake the world beginning from the centralized planning of the economy. It's ideology pure and simple, like the "population bomb", the man-made global cooling hoax (in the 70s), the man-made ozone-layer hole, the man-made global warming hoax (80s to present) and all the recurring scares with which we're told we're gonna die tomorrow unless we implement the most absurd policies NOW. The same political idiocy that is forcing on us those extremely dangeorus, polluting, expensive and job-killing, China-made, mercury lightbulbs in place of one of the iconic American contributions to human progress and comfort: Thomas Alva Edison's incandescent lightbulb. That idiocy and the war on political and economic freedom is what is preventing the world from enjoyng the benefits of the immense and untapped oil fields of this planet which, for the US alone, would be enough to send the Middle East tyrants back to barter economy. The oil that is in minuscule parts of Alaska, Utah, the Rockies, the Coast of California, Texas and the Gulf, is enough to provide cheap fuel for at least another couple of centuries to make America and its allies energy-independent, to give enough time and ease for human ingenuity, free research and the market to develop serious alternatives - should the need arise - without the comrades of the EPA turning the US into Zimbabwe, and the rest of us with it. All that, while forcing the taxpayer to subsidize failures like electric cars that give you a couple dozen miles - if there are no hills and it's not February in Minnesota - and then you have to recharge them by using coal and oil-produced energy (and, the extremely polluting batteries have to be bought at a dear price from S. Korea as their production process is in breach of enviromental regulations in the west. Puh-leeze!). In the meantime, the reduced production of wheat due to subsidized ethanol is causing food shortages and skyrocketing prices of bread in the third world - because we care for the poor - and the erosion of good land - because we care for the environment (dang, I'm drifting again).

Oil is abundant, relatively easy to find and transform in a safe and clean way. If only the government stayed away from it. No, the recent spill in the Gulf is not an argument. The reason why it took so long to plug it is that because of the absurd regulations imposed by government agencies, oil rigs have been forced to go farther and farther away form the coast, where oil fields are thousands and thousands of yards down under the sea level. Between the depth of the sea, the water pressure, the currents, a simple intervention of one hour on land or shallow waters requires weeks, especially if incompentent theoreticians and ideologues instead of real men are in charge of the operations.

And, mother nature absorbed most of it anyway. And, the rig that exploded was the only one OK'd by an adminstration of fanatic tree-huggers who'd skipped the rigorous procedures of their predecessors. And, the BP is the typical liberal big-business in cahoots with big goverment in defiance of the rule of law and all the conditions for a truly free market. BP has been for years pushing for "renewable energies" and similar frauds (and the taxpayer money they guarantee) and it is one of the biggest contributors of the campaign of the deity that blessed the Earth with his presence among such unworty mortals. It is also a big "donor" to all the worst anti-family campaigns around the world, but I digress. All of the above is on public records, there is no need for conspiracy theories. And, now you have a moratory that is not only killing hundreds of thousands jobs in the Gulf - just as China, Vietnam, Iran and all the other enemies of the west are multiplying their rigs in the same waters - but is necessarily helping the prices of oil to go up, as there is less of it available for us and more for these emerging powers that need oil to build up their own industrial might. An industrial growth that is currently paid for (mostly) by the American taxpayer via interests on the debt. The interest on the debt, not the debt, currently owed to China is roughly the cost of the entire Armed Forces of the People's Republic. As Lenin used to say, "the capitalists will sell us the rope we'll use to hang them". He was of course wrong like all commies, but only partially: if the US returned to really free markets and limited governement, it would not owe such huge money to a third world tyranny. And, Americans are not even selling the rope with which the Chicoms will hang us all, they are paying for it, and a million times its real price at that.

There is plenty of oil, and oil IS the clean energy. Oil is not the problem. Politics is.

There, I said it. Let the stoning begin. :)



I am not sure whether I buy into the concept of global warming, but how do you explain the melting and receding of many glaciers and the result of many polar bears seeking survival food in dumps close to settlements?

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 15:21 
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Suppression Of Great Truth Is The Norm It Seems « Nutrientscure'...
Aug 30, 2010 ... Number of Incidents of Energy Invention Suppression by the United ... Ph.D. Electrical Engineer: Advanced Form of Plasma-Discharge Energy… ...
nutrientscure.wordpress.com/2010/08/30/suppression... [Found on Google ]

Reserving comment for now. I urge Jeff to go to this site and read what is posted.

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2011 17:08 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
I am not sure whether I buy into the concept of global warming, but how do you explain the melting and receding of many glaciers and the result of many polar bears seeking survival food in dumps close to settlements?


Let me begin with this: How can they assume 'it' can be explained, let alone even be predicted? Are they God?

As a combination of education, interest, and hobby I have studied much in science -primarily theoretical and practical physics, mathematics, chemistry, and cosmology. At first my studies led me away from God by denying Him now they simply confirm God. I think the difference between then and now is a degree of humility -an admission that I do not 'know it all'.

As far as global warming -might I suggest you research chaos theory; specifically, a Mr. Edward Lorenz whose involvement and contribution in chaos came about accidentally through his work on weather prediction in the early 1960's. Have you ever heard of the "butterfly effect"? In essence, the butterfly effect is evidenced as a result of the inherent inability to know all things. From a quantum perspective, one can not know where at or how fast an electron travels BOTH at the same time -it is always one or the other. EVERYTHING measured is premised upon probabilities and assumption with error inherent. The more complex the system the more potential for error. Revisiting the concept of the "butterfly effect" simply put, we are limited in our ability to predict due to our inability to identify let alone measure precisely all variables.

Can anyone explain how these scientists that can not predict if it will rain next week can predict climate 10 years from now? Further, if it was truly proven science would it not be settled science?

P.S. Let me end with this. God promised abundance. Why doubt Him?

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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2011 23:18 
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All,

What a sticky topic this is...as soon as we start wondering about how much oil there is in the Middle East, we can get caught up in speculations regarding what it all means: to the economy, to politics, to war, history, religion and the destiny of man.

Sure, there's plenty of oil: about half of what the earth had to begin with (the other half has already been used). That doesn't sound soooo bad, but it is. Several reasons. Among them are that, since oil production follows a bell-shaped curve, and since we've reached the midpoint (I won't use that other bad word), there will be less and less of it from here on. Also, in the old days (100 years ago), it was much easier to find and extract oil than it is now, and the amount of energy you got out of the whole operation in relation to the amount of energy you put in was very much greater. The cognoscenti refer to this as the EROEI (Energy Returned On Energy Invested). It used to be 100:1, and now is close to 10:1, and dropping. Eventually, even though there is oil in the ground, it will be useless to extract it as an energy source, since it will take more energy to get it than it provides once you have it. Sort of like ethanol right now. Not only that, but our whole way of technological society life, especially the economic system and the banking system, is set-up to function only in a regime where the total energy entering the system is constantly increasing -- as it has done for several centuries, as first coal and then oil were developed as energy sources. That is no longer the case, and will never be the case again (barring a miracle). The economic system is now unravelling in consequence. That sounds bad, and it is, especially since there is no substitute for oil (barring a miracle, and I'm talking about a true miracle, not some dramatic technological breakthrough like cold fusion: you know, the panacea that is always ten years away).

Nobody nowadays likes to think about such things, and they certainly don't like to discuss them. They especially don't like to argue the mathematics with Albert Bartlett, the geophysics with M. King Hubbert, the economics with Chris Martenson, the biology with anybody, and the whole schmeer with Matt Savinar or Roscoe Bartlett (or the religious angle with me, I've noticed).

But we're going to have a miniature discussion right here. We have had it. This glorious technological society so lovingly developed over the last several centuries is going away, and there's nothing anybody (any human, I mean) can do about it. Egypt: what happened? Egypt is an oil producing country; they used to export quite a bit of oil, but their production is past its peak (ooops, I said that word, sorry) and declining, and at the same time their population is increasing, and their internal oil usage is increasing, and they've reached the break even point: they can't export oil anymore, so they lose import revenue, and they can't afford to subsidize food, and then they get riots and blame the politicians. But neither the former, current, or future politicians can do anything, since they can't control the geophysics. They are in terminal decline.

From my perspective our current technologia way of life is ultimately founded upon a certain core idea, which might be expressed as "Man is capable, on the basis of his own efforts, of ultimately coming to a good end and creating a paradise on earth." So when a normal person is confronted with any of these oil-related doomer scenarios, they more or less unconsciously revert back onto this core idea, and say to themselves, "Since man is capable, on the basis of his own efforts, of ultimately coming to a good end and creating a paradise on earth, I don't have to pay any attention to these silly geophysical calculations about oil, man will find a way." Then if they're feeling adventurous, they might add, "Either scientists or technologists or the top governmental managers will figure out something, and we can get on with the serious business of driving toward that paradise on earth."

So eventually all these supposedly rational arguments dovetail back to something that is inherently non-rational; one might almost say, religious. It could be that the tenet of man being capable of coming to a good end on the basis of his own efforts is precisely the thing being tested, within Providence. If that is the only counter-argument to the idea of total collapse, it strikes me as being a particularly flimsy one. Those who began the Tower of Babel might have been thinking the same thing.

Just between us friends and gallant comrades, I wouldn't be surprised if the End Times were very near.

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