Catholic Online Forum

Someone said the end of the world won't happen in our time. It is not even close. I am not convinced. I remain skeptical.
His arguments are as follows:

• Conversion of the whole world must happen before the end of time. Now China and Israel have not converted yet. China is still persecuting Christians and Israel is still waiting for her messiah.

• The coming of the "Reign of Mary" was prophesied by Mother Mary in Fatima in 1917 and also by Saint Louis de Montfort of France. It didn't happen yet.

• Anti-Christ didn't appear yet.

• Saint John Bosco prophesied that Europe will return to the Church after her apostasy. This didn't happen yet.

• Christian civilizations should appear throughout the whole world to glorify God - before the end of time. This didn't happen yet.


What do you think ? Do you agree ?

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Tom

Tom,

I too am skeptical. It says in scripture that no one knows when the end will be.

Not even the Mayans.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Jesus doesn't even know. So don't worry about it. Be like a good Boy Scout and "Be Prepared".

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Are you sure?

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

The end of the world has been discussed in other threads here.

My response to the question is that discussion of when the physical universe ends may be a stimulating topic for an academic discussion but the truth is, it is going to end for each of us reading this within no more than decades.

And for folks my age and older, most likely within a couple of decades or less.

So I try to approach life as if the world will end tomorrow!

Being a fallible, sinful mortal, I far-too-often don't succeed . . .

But I won't waste a minute of whatever time I have left in this finite, material world worrying about when it all ends. I have enough to be concerned with in my small corner of it!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Nothing brings this home more clearly than seeing a grave with ones name on it. They installed the stone on my wife's grave last week. It also bears my name and birth date since we will share the grave. All it needs is four more digits, and I think I can name three of them.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I've never thought much about it or worried at all about it. There are too many things in my personal world or the world of my loved ones that are ending or will end that I can't worry about a complete unknown. People have been expecting the end of the world for a long time. The Apostles thought Christ would soon return.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

The theories make for some entertaining TV programming!

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BobA

Tom,

Being sceptical can sometimes be a good thing. Being skeptical is best left to our friends and allies.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

My husband died on December 21, 2010. He will miss the end of the world by two years.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Jesus knows. He is God; He knows everything.

(Catechism 474) By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal. What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.

But your advice is good.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

But Jesus said he doen't know.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

You're right again David.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Guys,
It is some sort of heresy to say what you are saying... let me go see if I can find the name of it later.

John 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

There are lots of these paradoxes throughout the Bible.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

It is agnoeticism.

St. Augustine offers the following commentary: “According to the form of God everything that the Father has belongs to the Son for All things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine. According to the form of a slave, however, his teaching is not his own but of the One who sent him. Hence of that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. He is ignorant of this in the special sense of making others ignorant. He did not know it in their presence in such a way as to be prepared to reveal it to them at that time.” So too the Catechism: “Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal. What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.”

From Did Jesus know the day and the hour of the Apocalypse?

See also Jesus knew everything.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Very true! The Mayans did not account for leap year/365.24 days per year. The Mayans end of he world should have happened a couple of months ago.

Nothing will happen tomorrow, just like nothing happened when Y2K rolled around.

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God bless,
Perry
+++

Perry, by saying that nothing will happen tomorrow, are you, then, giving me permission not to get up in the morning and straighten up this cluttered computer room as I had planned?

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Jim! Get 'er done! LOL

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God bless,
Perry
+++

That's what I was afraid of. <sigh> Back to the ol' grinding wheel!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Ya mean I shouldn't have bought this Bently!

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BobA

I don't know how I could be committing heresy. I just quoted what Jesus said in the Gospel.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

You're just a carrier of the heresy, David.

It's along the same lines as healthy carriers of bugs and diseases. You don't display or suffer their symptoms until you go for medical tests and then your doctor diagnoses that your bodily system is infected with them. Grace just gave us a medical on the heresy. Now we need to get rid of this bug that is living in some of our souls.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

I just checked my science sites for any unusual activity on the planet:

NO abnormal earthquake activity
NO abnormal volcanic activity
NO significant sunspot activity, it is approaching a maximum but much lower lower than the previous ones in 2001-2002

Of course there is still time before tomorrow. Is it time to start worrying about "unlucky" 2013?

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BobA

There are 2 tomorrows. One on both sides of the international date line. Always wondered why most don't seem to realize this (comment not aimed at you).

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-Lou (Louis)

ORA et LABORA
Totus Tuus
Cacciatore/Fungaiolo

It doesn't matter, I looked at global information. In fact on the North American continent including Greenland there are six tomorrows according to the time zones. All depends how fine we want to slice it.

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BobA

Excellent point!

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-Lou (Louis)

ORA et LABORA
Totus Tuus
Cacciatore/Fungaiolo

Isn't that a sign? Matthew 24:37-39 A day like all days until !!!

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I don't know, it's the normal condition. Of course that's the point in scripture; be ready because we don't know when He will come. Personally, I'm curious to hear the "Unlucky 2013" warnings, they should be even stranger than the Mayan stuff. I'm sure someone will find some 2013 Nostradamus predictions.

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BobA

“If there are many who believe the world will end on December 21, as the Church, we have no problem with them naming us as the beneficiaries of their possessions in their wills.”
Bishop Bernardo Bastres Florence of Punta Arenas

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Pax Christi,
Fred D

Wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church.- St. Ignatius of Antioch

Greetings one and all. Since this forum is for speculation; may I consider the "End-of-Time" question from a different perspective? I believe that it is an accepted fact (??) that God does nothing for no reason; that there is a purpose for everything that He does. Alright, There are (who knows; but let's use a number) billions upon billions of celestial bodies throughout the universe and that the distances from wherever to wherever are X to the Nth power. Well, it may well be likely that it will take mankind (and/or womankind) millions of years to "visit" the furthest places plus, including assuming that the universe continues to expand all that time. So, the "End Time" is a bit "further down the road" is it not???

Just a thought!!

Merry Christmas to one and all, Frank

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Frank Russell
The more you learn; the more you learn that there is to learn!

Lou,



I am unreliably informed that the Mayan long calendar's cycle was completed at 11:11 GMT.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Frank,

That God created billions of celestial bodies does not imply that He intended Man should visit all of them.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Saw an ad for a T-Shirt saying:
"The End Of the World,
I Was There"

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BobA

If one is on both sides of the dateline, where is the other one?

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Wherever God wants it to be.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Hi Jim,
You, of course, could be quite right. Then again there is the question as to why He would create a universe where not only the life forms; but, the inanimate celestial bodies also are under constant change. Could be one of His ways of showing that He does not create something and then leave it to it's own resources no matter, to us, the vastness and distances involved. On a much larger scale, it is another arguement against Evolution, at least without divine guidance, and the idea of Randomness. There are many who are easily convinced about Darwin's "natural selection" involving life forms; but, would have a difficult time defending it on a celestial basis with inanimiate objects. It seems that it is a defense of the existance of God that should be more utilized. More then enough is known and understood about the workings and patterns that exist throughout the universe.

Happy & Blessed & safe New Year to one and all, Frank

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Frank Russell
The more you learn; the more you learn that there is to learn!

I'm not sure that is an "accepted fact". And God certainly does not need to explain or justify His actions.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Frank,

I believe quantum theory deals with the problem of randomness by means of probability theory.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Hi Dave,
While there are a lot of things that I have never heard of; I haven't heard of anyone in the Church who considers that God can be frivolous. We believe that God is absolute perfection and it would "seem" that logically frivolity and "absolute" perfection could not co-exist. Assuming that to be true; then an "accepted fact" would seem to be the logical conclusion.
Don't mis-understand me; I certainly don't claim to be any kind of "expert" in any area; I am only expressing my own opinions. It can be fun as well as stimulating to "speculate" on various ideas and see how others think.

Have a safe New Year's eve, Frank

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Frank Russell
The more you learn; the more you learn that there is to learn!

Hi Jim,
I'll take your word for it; that is beyond me. However, I suspect that "quantum theory" is insufficient to explain God. Is God "subject" to the natural laws of mathmetics/physics that He created or that resulted from His creativity? Plus, my suggestion regarding the "End Time" would not be affected by any natural law; but, involves "God's Own timetable". It boils down to: when will God "pull the plug"? We will never know; but, it is fun to think "outside of the box" (and maybe it will forestall dementia/alzheimers). I would suggest that "logic" plays a bigger role then "natural law"; which is, of course, why we can only "speculate" about the "End Time".

Have a safe New Year's eve, Frank

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Frank Russell
The more you learn; the more you learn that there is to learn!

Frank,



I believe it seeks to understand things much, much smaller than God.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

It has been a long time since I attempted to understand Quantum Mechanics. At that time I just acquired enough knowledge of it to pass the exams for my degrees, and then got as far away from it as possible.

From what I have absorbed, I think that Quantum Mechanics is to reality what Life Expectancy tables are to health. That is that QM should be restricted to calculating results and not expected to explain causes.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Let me put it another way. Things like "purpose" or "reason" are human concepts, ways in which we attempt to explain our actions. God does not need to have a purpose or a reason for things He does. The fact that whatever he does is the will of God is reason enough, and certainly cannot be termed frivolous.

I am also not convinced that God is required to follow rules of logic.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

I think the Regensburg Lecture is of some relevance here.




http://www.zenit.org/article-17818?l=english



Other relevant links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg_lecture

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... rg_en.html

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Hi Dave,
I'm going to really get in over my head on these.

Regarding "purpose" and "reason"; did God "always" have in mind creating our universe and us or did He come-up with the idea at a later time??? Is God a "static" entity or a "flexible/thinking" entity? When He accomplished His creation; He had a plan for us and it's "purpose/reason" was to allow us to know, love, serve and be with Him for eternity. There was a "purpose/reason" for Him to give us "free will"; so that we would come to Him voluntarily.

I may well be drawing the wrong implication from what you said; but, for more precision, let me substitute "evil" for "frivolous". Based on what you said; it "seems" to imply that God "could" do that which is evil; but, "wills" not to do so. However, is it not more correct to say that God "can not" do that which is evil due to His state of absolute perfection?

As for Logic, it's not that God is "required" to follow it's rules; but, that in His state of absolute perfection; He is Logic. (That probably isn't phrased the best)

Frank

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Frank Russell
The more you learn; the more you learn that there is to learn!

Frank,

Evil and good are not things that exist apart from God; things that God can choose between. Just look at the word "good". The fact that it bears a close resemblance to the word "God" is no accident. Whatever God wills is good by definition.

As to logic, what is the foundational premise of logic? It is that "something cannot be and not be at the same time." How does that apply to a spiritual being who exists outside of time? It doesn't. If you remove the element of time that statement is nonsensical.

Now, I am not much of a philosopher, so I'm sure someone will come along and correct me.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Maybe that works in English ... but not in all languages.

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Well Squirt, I said I'm not a philosopher, I am also not a linguist, nor an etymologist (and I had to look that word up ).

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Nevertheless, you raise an interesting philosophical question. When God willed the extermination of peoples occupying the 'promised land' in the Old Testament, for example, was that by definition 'good'?

I wish I had a better memory so I could provide a source, ... but these types of issues have been debated by many philosophers and theologians.

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Squirt,



You beat me to it. It is simply a quirk of the English language. It holds good in neither Latin nor Ancient Greek.

I'm reminded of a number of sermons I've heard during which the priest has made much of the "us" in "And God said let us make Man" - proof of the Holy Trinity, no less. Um, no. That the word Elohim happens to be gramatically plural is simply a quirk of Hebrew. No significance should be read into it. (Mind you, it does make the Shema Yisrael particularly beautiful in a very striking way.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)