Catholic Online Forum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... -Pope.html

,

I like The Holy father for insights like these.

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Simon

There is a passage in the Old Testament that led to the ox and the ass being included in popular/symbolic imagery. Basically it implies that they know their Maker while many people (presumably the prophet implies 'Israel') refuse to acknowledge Him.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Isaiah 1v3:



But I'm sure the Pope knows that!

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

I haven't read the Pope's new book. However, from the quotations I have seen, it appears that he says that there is no evidence that the animals were there. I don't read him saying that they definitely were not there.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Was Jesus not born in a stable? In a manger? Don't those things suggest the possible (even probable) presence of animals, even if they are not mentioned explicitly?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Good point David. Our Church is full of "Tradition". This means that although it has not been found or written in the Bible we still accept it as truth because it has been handed down since the founding of our religion. It is logical that there was at least one donkey there who carried the Virgin Mary. Do you think Joseph carried her? I doubt it. Was Benedict there? I doubt that too. So it is possible that since it was a clear night, the animals stayed out in the fields instead of in the cave stable. Besides, does it really matter that much? I doubt that too.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

It would be useful to see His Holiness' comments in context so that we may understand his reason for saying that in his book.

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Jeff Stevens

I don't care! They're in my creche, always have been and always will be, it just wouldn't seem right to leave them out.

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BobA

I suspect that she walked. If they had a donkey, he would probably have been carrying Joseph's tools.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

That's fine. But the Holy Father usually writes for a purpose, so I'd be curious.

I have a feeling it was something along the lines of "While there is no mention in Scripture of animals at Christ's birth, [whatever point he is actually discussing]".

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Jeff Stevens

I have not read the Holy Father's book so I don't know what he intended by the remark and based on other material I have read, I'm not sure I would understand even if I had read it. No one alive today knows what the manger actually looked like much less what animals might or might not have been present, just my opinion.

I've heard the manger described as everything from a structure under or attached to a home, there is some historical accuracy in that type of manger, to a cave. The animals I've generally seen associated with creches are oxen, sheep and donkeys, again, all have some historical precedent for the area and time.

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BobA

From an adorable little film, Love Actually



http://www.youfixittube.com/watch?v=9chdp8izEtk

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The context was what the Holy Father wrote after that sentence: despite not being mentioned, no nativity scene would be complete without the ox and ass.

And of course i ditto what David said: stables imply stable animals. (Just dont' make the stable scene *too* accurate )

chris kirk

I thought she drove a Fiat.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Since there were shepherds with their sheep nearby, I would suggest that the stable was a bad weather shelter for the sheep. It was also probably used as a shelter for the ewes while they were giving birth to lambs. [I don't have any specific information on how sheep were cared for at that time, but this seems reasonable.]

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I'm a confirmed town boy, so that's news to me. So how bad does weather have to be to bring in, say, cows? Rain doesn't seem to bother them much (I can't imagine what a wet sheep smells like.)

btw, I've heard that Jesus may well have been born in summer because the shepherds were watching the sheep 'by night', and considering the desert-like conditions only the warmer months would have been tolerable for being out.

chris kirk

Same difference. If they had a donkey he would have been there.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

First of all the stable was probably a cave, not a building. Second, to answer Chris' question about how wet sheep smell - probably worse than a wet dog.

Third, I have to confess I removed the cow from our Nativity Scene. Donkeys and sheep I understand. But cows? Did they have cows in Palestine? I have a feeling the cows are a European addition. I may just replace them with a couple of dogs.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Aha, the first man-cave.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Chris, as one who spent many mornings as a boy with my head pushed into the side of a milk cow while sitting on a stool, pulling on udders while carefully watching the posterior end of that bovine to avoid being slapped in the face with a tail full of what was in an earlier life, grass, grain and/or hay, I can assure you that the smell given off because of wetness is the least olfactory sensation one has to worry about when associating with grazing critters within a restricted area!

The toilet habits of most ruminants leave much to be desired and cattle are among the worst offenders.

And when they lie down to rest, they tend to seek a warm spot. And in a cow pasture, the warmest spot to be found in one covered with freshly deposited manure so . . .

Well, 'nuff said!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Effie,

If the Jews had to sacrifice bulls in the temple, I would think cows would be somewhere in the general vicinity.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

You're right!

I guess I'd better put the cows back in.

Effie

PS. I still think they need a dog.

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

LOL I'll lobby the Holy Father for you!

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

I wonder if Father Angel has a dog in his crèche?

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Them critters need couth training!

We let our neighbor use our pasture and I use the tractor-mower to spread the free fertilizer after it ages a bit.

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BobA

My grandfather had a nail, with a long piece of twine attached, in the wood on the side opposite the milker. A half dozen turns of the twine keep the tail nicely in place.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

(apropos of not much, I was unsuccessful in my search for a free online recording of 'I'd Like to be a Cow in Switzerland'. One verse:
I'd like to be a cow in Switzerland
Where the grass is always green;
Where the bulls, like Ferdinand, are meek,
And so shy because the mountains 'peak';
Where the black cows give milk chocolate,
And the white cows give ice cream.
I'd like to be a cow in Switzerland,
Where life is just a dream.)

chris kirk

Tying a cow's tail up is one way of putting them in "neutral". A cow can kick in many directions where a horse can only kick two ways. When artificially inseminating cows (I'll leave out the details), it is important to tie the tail up first. Of course this is probably more information than you needed to know.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

That is why we had kicker chains. They are two metal cuffs that fit over the tendon just above the joint in the leg. An adjustable chain is pulled tight; so the legs are bound together. Only had one cow that learned to kick with both legs simultaneously.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Chris,

http://www.madmusic.com/song_details.aspx?SongID=5284

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James, much appreciated, altho' i'd stumbled across that clip while looking for the full version
I find it dumb to buy *one* measly song every couple of months when the mood strikes, but after living off online freebies, internet radio and youstubes with the picture off for so many years, i could have built quite a collection by now.

I suppose Australians aren't familiar with Bob and Ray. Very low-key but very funny.

chris kirk

Chris, back in the day — when radio carried a much more eclectic variety of shows … and back when I could actually hear a radio broadcast — I used to laugh myself silly listening to Bob and Ray.

(I miss, if not the good ol' days in toto, at least those parts of them which made me laugh and feel good!)

It's probably the vagaries of age as much as a changed culture, but I don't seem to laugh as much as I used to …

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Look at Pilgrim's Christmastide illustration. There appears to be a donkey there. Perhaps our Holy Father didn't consult our Holy Pilgrim.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

There was an old Vaudeville routine in which one participant related some wildly improbable story and the other questioned its accuracy. The rejoinder was "Vas you der Charly?"

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Yes, and he's a tall sun-of-a-gun, too! Looms way above the cow!

Maybe he's a circus donkey trained to stand on a pedestal!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.