Catholic Online Forum

Adam and Eve,Noahs Ark,Global Flood etc are regarded by most scientists and alas by many Catholics as fairy tales we were told as children but cannot be expected to accept as fact as adults.Jesus Christ,our first Pope and the Apostles and early Christians had no doubt they were factual.Jesus Christ,it seems,made a grave mistake and deadly error undoing that which a myth did not do anyway - any comments - jimc

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James Campbell

after considering the above should our Catholic scientists and teachers accept and teach this as fact or fable ?! - jimc

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James Campbell

Jim,

Catholics are not required to take everything in the Bible literally. The Bible is not primarily a history book nor is it a science text. Also, the ancients had rather different ideas about how to record and present history than we do today.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,beg to differ but Catholics sadly do not do so but are required to interpret the Bible in the literal or obvious sense first unless reason or necessity dictates otherwise[Pope Leo XIII - It is of course accepted and obvious that the Bible is not primarily a history or science book but where it touches on history or science it is inerrant - btw the way it is not so called ignorant or primative ancients that are the author/s of the Bible but the all knowing updated God - jimc

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James Campbell

Jim,

The Bible is the inspired word of God. That does not mean that God dropped divinely written scrolls out of the sky, or dictated every word to a faithful secretary. The Bible was written by men, in the literary styles and conventions common to their historical and cultural contexts.

And, BTW, I said nothing about anybody being "ignorant" or "primative" [sic]. If you are going to have a discussion with me I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I'm sure others here probably feel the same.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David - excuse me but it is you who read me incorrectly for I did not refer to you directly but to some others I have encountered - btw the Bible is not only the inspired word of an all time all knowing God,it is also inerrant in all its parts. If then that which is faultless should perchance be presumed to be faulty,lets search for the fault in us and not in the word/s of God.Some say the Bible is too difficult to understand,whilst others say it is written so that the then simple/primitive people could understand it.Could this just be why some today simply do not understand? - jimc

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James Campbell

Jim,

Nothing in the Bible is a myth or fairytale. What many people don't understand is that the different books were written in many styles and genres that no longer exist. You got to remember that in the Bible God is communicating to us. Our human language is insufficient to understand the language of God, so He talks to us in a way that we can have some semblance of understanding His words.

God works out of time. To have some idea what this is, although grossly insufficient, imagine God sitting in front of a huge, gigantic screen with zillions of frames, each frame telling one story of human history. At one go, He sees the frame from the creation of the earth until the end of time in less than a blink of an eye. But we live through each frame that takes zillion of years to complete.

So when the Author of Genesis says that God made the universe in six days, each frame of a day could consist of an actual day that we know, or decades or hundreds or thousands of years. But to God, it is much less than a blink. So Genesis is perhaps written in a style that is poetic to give us an idea of a time frame that we can understand, but in reality is not a true measurement according to human concepts. But it is nonetheless true that God created the universe according to the order given in the Bible.

Similarly, the stories of Noah and others are about real people, but told in a way that the human mind is capable to absorb and follow the story of the human race in salvation history, from the Fall to Salvation and the Second Coming of Christ. Each book is written in a style familiar with the time it was written but not necessarily in one that is readily comprehensible to us.

I hope I am making some sense.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Ian, alas sadly imho many have and do put forward all sorts of fads and fancies ad infinitium of their own making or of other phony,flawed,fallen,fallible,humans instead of or in preference to the word of God - God simply and clearly states so that there cannot be.but sadly is,reason for doubt or mistake "in six days of 24hrs"-no doubt - more later - meanwhile see what the Church,Church Fathers,Scriptures and Tradition say at http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com - scroll L/H margin to science - jimc

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James Campbell

Jimc,

As Catholics, we do not get our teaching authority from the Bible. It comes from the Magisterium, which uses Scripture and Tradition. It is Tradition that gives us the Bible and Tradition that tells us how to interpret it.

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (as is given on the St. Charles Borromeo website):



It's hubris to think that we can read the Bible, with our 20th/21st century understanding, and think we know what people who lived 4000 years ago meant. We need the Church for that.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Jim,



You might want to rethink that.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

why ! dont just say so tell me/us why ? - jimc

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James Campbell

I and presumably we know all that but all this has been allowed for by an all knowing all seeing God - man has and makes the problem and the Church does not and will not intervene until there is a danger of being misled or misinterpreting etc - jimc

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James Campbell

You need to elaborate on that statement.

That's not my experience or what I've been taught in the least. Mother Church gives us what we need. If I understand the above statement, you seem to think she lets us wander around blindly until we mess up.

Once again, I would direct you to say what you mean. It would seem like you're tossing out hints of what you want to say and when someone guesses incorrectly you leap out to tell them they are wrong. That's not very congenial and you may not be around here long if it persists.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

ok /Rose - but please accept that I am being assailed and called on to answer and enlarge and elaborate on more than one topic.It is not my mission or my responsibility to teach what the Church teaches but to find out what she has or has not taught as required of her,especially as regards what she has or has not taught me and why.Ask,seek and try and find is what I am trying to do as I am commanded. To try and clarify what you required,I have read and heard and discovered that each person is their own interpreter of whatever is said and whoever it is said by and how ever it is said "for it is impossible to do otherwise" or expect the Church sitting by each of us individually interpreting and trying to explain every jot and tittle etc - dont blame me for this as you demanded I elaborate - jimc

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James Campbell

It is, indeed your responsibility to clearly state what you mean and support your statements with outside facts as necessary. If you look around, you will see that by far most of the posters on COL do this.

If you have gotten involved in too many conversations, then you need to select which ones to pursue and which to let go.

I'm not asking you to elaborate on what the Church teaches. I have several copies of the Catechism and I know how to use it. I am asking you to to elaborate on your own statement, which is still not clear. If you cannot do so, then you may wish to stick with easier topics.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Rose - I was weaned on the penny catechism but I have the most recent greatly enlarged one which I only look up should doubt arise as to what I know or accept -since you seem to suggest some doubt I will look it up tomorrow knowing that it is not Guaranteed to be inerrant in all its parts.Re interpretation of Scriptures in 1894 Pope Leo XIII stated that the literal and obvious sense must always be accepted first unless reason or necessity dictated otherwise.This has not or cannot be rescinded or improved on[Proventissimus Deus] - jimc

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James Campbell

no problem - my name is James Campbell = jimc

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James Campbell

James,

Just as a point of information, you can automate your signature by going to the "user control panel", the link to which can be found on the right side of the page, near the top. Most of us find that a convenient way not to forget to sign our posts.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

OK, the spin you appear to be putting on this is that we can read the Bible and however we take the words to mean in this day and age is correct.

That just doesn't make sense. We have to take things like literary style and changing word meanings into account.

We also need to be properly catechised or we will wander off into interpreting things to suit our own wishes.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Actually, our dear God did know this, he promised his Holy Spirit to the Catholic Church and the Church to us as guide to understanding.

The early church Fathers insisted that the scripture belonged to the Catholic Church and not to anyone else, and that she alone had the right of explaining what it meant as it is her own book. These same Fathers wrote that the Church is the people gathered around their Bishop, and the Bishops in communion with one another.

So we look to the Catholic Church for a full understanding of scripture.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

This is not in question or doubt or dispute - but each of us must finally and ultimatelybe the final interpreters even of the Church"s interpretation for how could it possibly be otherwise and the ChURCH does not interpret every word and line and sentence as and when required by anyone and everyone any where and everywhere and anytime and all the time - jimc

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James Campbell

I think you would be hard pressed not to find a reliable (Church approved) commentary on any single portion of the Bible.

I only interpret the Bible in the light of what I have learned through the Tradition of the Faith as it has been taught to me by the Church. Otherwise I might as well start my own religion.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

I so agree with you Rose!

On my shelves I have a 20+ volume set of books which are the entire Bible with the commentaries available inserted--just from early Christian writers! More than 20 books, it is essentially an Encyclopedia in size, and it covers Genesis through Revelation. Very cool reference.

Then there is the Navarre Bible commentaries, I have many of the single book volumes, and again lots of notes, quotes from documents and Saints.

And then there are other commentaries that are available--from wonderful publishers such as TAN and Ignatius, Sophia, and Catholic Book Publishing Company (LOTH and other useful books).

Taking a topic, one can generally find a teaching document, quoting scripture, which covers that topic more than adequately. Often a topic will have more than one teaching document out there.

Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed or ignorant at best.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

likewise and yet we could differ and in fact do - btw the Bible is guaranteed to be the inerrant,infallible word of God,commentaries still have to be individually interpreted and do not necessarily guarantee inerrancy and infallibility - nor would you carry one with you everywhere you went not even to Mass to interpret the readings and the Gospel - jimc

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James Campbell

Perhaps that's why Father gives us a Homily during Mass?

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

I think that is one of the promised benefits of the apple diet

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Joe,

LOL.

I believe Elvis has left the building:

viewtopic.php?f=144&t=55272&p=720168#p720168

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

I think you need to orientate us on where you stand. Your posts seem to be shooting in many directions. What I like to ask you is this:

1) Do you have a problem or issues with the Catholic Church?

2) Where do you stand in terms of what the Magisterium teaches?

3) Are you Catholic?

When we get some clearer answers from you, we know how to proceed with your posts/questions or issues you have with the Church.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Ian,

As James Daly mentioned above, it seems like James Campbell is no longer with us and will not be able to respond to your questions.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Thank you, David. It would have been nice, though, to get a clarification from him.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe