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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 12:38 
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Kate Galbraith in the New York Times article "Having Children Brings High Carbon Impact" wrote:
Having children is the surest way to send your carbon footprint soaring, according to a new study from statisticians at Oregon State University.

The study found that having a child has an impact that far outweighs that of other energy-saving behaviors.

Take, for example, a hypothetical American woman who switches to a more fuel-efficient car, drives less, recycles, installs more efficient light bulbs, and replaces her refrigerator and windows with energy-saving models. If she had two children, the researchers found, her carbon legacy would eventually rise to nearly 40 times what she had saved by those actions.

“Clearly, the potential savings from reduced reproduction are huge compared to the savings that can be achieved by changes in lifestyle,” the report states.

The impact of children varies dramatically depending on geography: An American woman who has a baby will generate nearly seven times the carbon footprint of that of a Chinese woman who has a child, the study found.

The calculations take account of the fact that each child is, in turn, likely to have more children. And because the calculations derive from the fertility rate — the expected number of children per woman in various countries — the findings focus on women, although clearly men participate in the decision to have children.

“In discussions about climate change, we tend to focus on the carbon emissions of an individual over his or her lifetime,” said Paul Murtaugh, a professor of statistics at O.S.U., in a statement accompanying the study’s release. “Those are important issues and it’s essential that they should be considered. But an added challenge facing us is continuing population growth and increasing global consumption of resources.”

The full report is published in the February 2009 edition of the journal Global Environmental Change: Human and Policy Dimensions.


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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 14:18 
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To follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, if no more children are born, the carbon footprint of the human species will be zero.

Well, duh! :roll: :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 14:27 
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retsinab wrote:
To follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, if no more children are born, the carbon footprint of the human species will be zero.

No. The logical conclusion of this line of reasoning is that the population is reduced, not that it reaches zero. Let's not overstate their foolishness.

It's foolish enough to prioritize carbon footprint over the good of human life.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 14:41 
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This is another way they are using to justify killing babies. Next they will come up with reasons in order to kill the elderly and who knows who else they will target. These are the fruits of the culture of death-they will not stop till they self destruct. The Pope had it right when he said that the West has this pathological "self-hate".
There are still those who think that this is folly and keep on having babies. I know the Moslems love having children and I think some of the Spanish think the same way too. They consider children a blessing. Their children will be the ones to populate the earth.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 16:34 
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Carmelite wrote:
This is another way they are using to justify killing babies. Next they will come up with reasons in order to kill the elderly and who knows who else they will target. These are the fruits of the culture of death-they will not stop till they self destruct. The Pope had it right when he said that the West has this pathological "self-hate".

An interesting take. "Self-hate". Can we explore that psychology?

I understand "white guilt". Do you think it's similar? That somehow because we have been successful, it must have been at the cost of others' prosperity, and thus we deserve punishment or must do penance to even the cosmic scales.

Carmelite wrote:
There are still those who think that this is folly and keep on having babies. I know the Moslems love having children and I think some of the Spanish think the same way too. They consider children a blessing. Their children will be the ones to populate the earth.

I'm glad the Spanish have not lost that element of their Catholic culture.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 16:55 
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Jeff,

I think that self hate comes with the lack of love for God. Whoever follows God is guided to love others as themselves and in doing so they have to love themselves first. Without God everything is upside down-lies become "truths", what is truly good becomes an "evil" and so on.

Years ago, I heard Fr Corapi say something that grabbed my attention. He said that whoever forsakes God, start doing things that lead to their own destruction. As you might know, Fr Corapi is very learned with several degrees but more importantly he is a faithful Catholic that is obedient to the Church/Magisterium and so I pay attention to what he says.
Following this, I noticed in the many psalms that I recite for AM and PM prayers that there are many verses that say something like "the wicked will be no more" or "the wicked will be uprooted" and the like. This made me think that God must have put a mechanism in humanity where evil destroys itself. I think in His Goodness, God allowed that "evil" will self destruct (self hate) in order for "good" to get a fresh start. That is just my conclusion and I could be wrong- but of course what the Bible says is never wrong.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 17:20 
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Well here it is. Will it be long before the Nancy Pelosi's of "carrying swastikas" fame pick up this theme? The irony of THAT quip. In the past I have equated the government denial of the right to life to the unborn with the government denial of the right to life to the Jews under Hitler. Interesting, even if backward, since the blaming of a class of people for certain ills of the world usually precedes their persecution. But here we have the increasing expression of the opinion that having children is harming the environment.

The subject of harm to the environment and my own number of children has been broached by my mother's "progressive" friends with her, by the way.

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PostPosted: 07 Aug 2009 17:25 
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The Pope had it right when he said that the West has this pathological "self-hate".


More like disordered self-love. One wonders for whom they are so worried about preserving the environment if they are so anti-natalist. Themselves and their own children? But no one else's. It reminds me of the strange trend that voters all hate the other person's congressmen and senators but still vote for their own.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 10:50 
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Carmelite wrote:
This is another way they are using to justify killing babies.

Maybe. I did find this interesting:

Press release from OSU regarding the study:
http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/ ... l-emphasis

Oregon State University, author of the study wrote:
CORVALLIS, Ore. – Some people who are serious about wanting to reduce their “carbon footprint” on the Earth have one choice available to them that may yield a large long-term benefit – have one less child...

The researchers make it clear they are not advocating government controls or intervention on population issues, but say they simply want to make people aware of the environmental consequences of their reproductive choices.


It is interesting that Oregon is the state on the cutting edge of "right to die" legislation, and this is a STATE run university.

So OSU itself is not advocating anything one way or the other. This is the role of educational institutions doing research; to find facts so that educated decisions can be made. In our political climate, of course, the ZPG or NPG nuts are going to use this as further justification for their policies, some of which are downright genocidal.

...among others.

Commenter on the New York Times Blog of this article wrote:
“Of the serial killers I’m aware, John Wayne Gacy was the greenest. His victims were young, so he snuffed out many years of carbon consumption. He could have only been greener by targeting females.”


No doubt, the sickos are out there. I'm not one to throw around this term regularly, but that comment is downright satanic.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 10:54 
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Dean wrote:
More like disordered self-love.

I think this may be closer to the mark. On the surface, they want a more sustainable environment for themselves and their (or others') children, but they are, in many cases, willing to kill to accomplish that. Their priorities are disordered. They see the end of avoiding the [insert apolalyptic prediction of the ZPG nuts here] as justifying the means of contraception, abortion, infanticide, assisted suicide, killing the elderly, and eventually, genocide.

Dean wrote:
One wonders for whom they are so worried about preserving the environment if they are so anti-natalist. Themselves and their own children? But no one else's.

Eh, I don't think tihs is quite there. While I'm sure that many of them would advocate poorer and less environmentally conscious people should not have children, and perhaps should be forced not to, through various unacceptable means, many of the ZPG bunch are themselves abstaining from having children. I know a few couples like this. So some of them are putting their money where their mouth is.

I say they don't know what they're missing. Whenever a couple who tells me they want to postpone having children because they want to enjoy life, I have to think they don't really know what they're talking about, and how much having children enhances life.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 13:23 
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Jeff,

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Eh, I don't think tihs is quite there. While I'm sure that many of them would advocate poorer and less environmentally conscious people should not have children, and perhaps should be forced not to, through various unacceptable means, many of the ZPG bunch are themselves abstaining from having children. I know a few couples like this. So some of them are putting their money where their mouth is.


But again, one wonders for whom they are saving the planet if they advocate ZPG and that everyone abstain from having children.

At least the couples you know aren't hypocrites if they are abstaining from having children. The one couple who dared to bring up the subject of the number of my children to my mother had five children themselves.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 14:07 
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I was once accosted at an Earth Day celebration by some college co-eds who were manning the population awareness table. I was 8 months pregnant and so they were eager to get me to step closer so they could educate me on the importance of having fewer children. I smilingly obliged and when they asked me how many children I planned to have I said, "Oh, at least eight." and I enjoyed their expressions very much as I continued my walk.

This pregnancy is only my third and I have had people give the opinion that it was very irresponsible of me to have another child at my age. The anti-child movement seems to feel that there ought to be a cutoff age for parenthood and this baby's daddy is on the wrong side of it!

If I have to give up children to be green--then paint me blue and let someone who doesn't want children cut their carbon footprint. I'm gonna have the kids!

Also, what is missed is that multiples are actually an efficient use of raw materials--a crib that is used twice costs as much as the same crib used 10 times. Clothing purchased for one child may be worn by several in a row--this is also cost effective.

I'll go for life every time.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 14:37 
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Dove wrote:

If I have to give up children to be green--then paint me blue and let someone who doesn't want children cut their carbon footprint. I'm gonna have the kids!


Wise choice.
I never met a mother that said that she regrets having children but I met many that regret (and some suffer) not having them. I have met those who wished they had more kids but never met any that wished they had less of the kids they already have.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 14:49 
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Carmelite wrote:
Dove wrote:

If I have to give up children to be green--then paint me blue and let someone who doesn't want children cut their carbon footprint. I'm gonna have the kids!


Wise choice.
I never met a mother that said that she regrets having children but I met many that regret (and some suffer) not having them. I have met those who wished they had more kids but never met any that wished they had less of the kids they already have.


My mother had many friends who limited themselves to two children and not one of them is glad they did. One of them had limited herself to a single child who was killed in a car accident in her early 20's. Now mom is older and without any children or grandchildren and it is so sad because they are such good people and deserve more than this loneliness.

I wanted lots of kids but nature did not cooperate very well. I got two in my mid 20's and now one at 45! Two adult children and a baby on the way--I can hardly wait to get this kid born. It is going to be so much fun to have a child in the house again! I keep wondering if I will be able to keep up and think somehow I shall.

I so wanted a big family. I know women with 4 and 5 children and others with 10-12 children and they are so blessed!

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 15:04 
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Dove wrote:
Also, what is missed is that multiples are actually an efficient use of raw materials--a crib that is used twice costs as much as the same crib used 10 times. Clothing purchased for one child may be worn by several in a row--this is also cost effective.


And more people under one roof doesn't cost more to heat than two people.

And larger families naturally use their material goods more frugally and efficiently than smaller families, because their financial resources are going to be more limited than the 2 income ZPG couple with no children. The waste coming from my home (as determined by the number of trash cans on the curb on Saturday evening) is so often less than the waste from the homes of my neighbors who have only a quarter of the children I do.

From a utilitarian point of view, my extra carbon footprints and their children will be the ones creating the demand for the 401k securities that undergird the retirement of the ZPG crowd. There have to be individual investors ultimately to buy the stock that is held by these funds when the investors who want to retire need to sell them. It will also be the wages of my extra carbon footprints and their children that are taxed for the ZPG crowd's social security and government healthcare. Since the ZPGs have not done their part in contributing to the renewal of society, I have to make up for the slack. The ZPGs are so shortsighted.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 15:19 
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Dove wrote:
I keep wondering if I will be able to keep up and think somehow I shall.


Yes you will be able and God will not abandon you.
My mom had her last child when she was 47 and my dad was much older. The rest of us older kids helped her out sometimes-but she could have managed without us anyway.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 15:27 
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Location: Enjoying the sight and aroma of blooming lilacs on a marvelous day in May …
My wife and I will celebrate our fiftieth anniversary in October of this year. Yesterday, we gathered at Antioch park with family for pictures – 38 strong. (Pictures here)

In the mid 1950s, we lived a block apart. We were acquainted but she was nearly four years younger than me – the little girl who rode the horses.

At 17, I left school and joined the Marine Corps. Home on leave, I was attending a softball game with a friend.

“Who is that in right field?” I asked. “She’s cute!”

“Sharon Schibi,” was the reply.

“No way! The little girl who used to ride the horses by the house? Wow! She’s grown up!”

A few days later, I attended party. Another friend had set me up with a date with the hostess.

Sharon was there and we wound up together.

Ah, yes! Cheroni, the retired nurse and the old curmudgeon -- fifty years, four kids, eleven grandkids and eleven great grandkids, careers as an RN (her), a carpenter, and later a public school teacher (me) later, we still are!

And neither of us would have it any other way!

What a ride! When it comes to family, less is definitely not more!!!

I pray that those who choose small families (or no children at all) will know neither loneliness nor neglect as they age.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 16:22 
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Dean wrote:
But again, one wonders for whom they are saving the planet if they advocate ZPG and that everyone abstain from having children.

That's just the thing, Dean. They don't advocate that NOBODY have children. They advocate that some people might choose not to have children, and those that do choose to have less children, like one. ZPGer's specifically would advocate no more than two per couple (on the assumption that current consumption is sustainable, with modifications). The NPG'ers (negative population growth) bunch would be the ones advocating 1 or none.

But none of them (except the real fringe nutcases in the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement...real organization) advocate nobody having ANY children EVER again.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 16:28 
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I once read that Satan rebelled when faced with the obligation to adore the infant Jesus. As a result he lost all. He has had a special hatred for children ever since.

When I see a movement move to an anti-child stance, I have a suspicion of who just signed onto it.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 16:29 
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The math is pretty wonky. Does my carbon footprint count for ME or for me plus all my children and descendants? Because if the latter, and you add all my descendants' footprints to ME, then they each have a personal carbon footprint of zero.

So, I suppose using that math, it's entirely possible that I have no carbon footprint at all, it's part of some ancestor's footprint.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 16:49 
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Rose West wrote:
The math is pretty wonky. Does my carbon footprint count for ME or for me plus all my children and descendants?

They said how much each person's footprint is. By creating more people, you create a larger footprint.

It doesn't matter who you attribute it to. The effect on the environment is increased with each additional person. That's pretty obvious.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 18:07 
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Jeff,

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ZPGer's specifically would advocate no more than two per couple (on the assumption that current consumption is sustainable, with modifications).


By definition, that would be negative population growth, albeit very slow, since something greater than 2.0 per couple is needed for replacement.

Regardless, their position is despicable from a Catholic perspective.

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PostPosted: 09 Aug 2009 18:38 
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Kardinal wrote:
Rose West wrote:
The math is pretty wonky. Does my carbon footprint count for ME or for me plus all my children and descendants?

They said how much each person's footprint is. By creating more people, you create a larger footprint.

It doesn't matter who you attribute it to. The effect on the environment is increased with each additional person. That's pretty obvious.


Yes, but if you attribute my child's footprint to me, then you can't attribute his footprint to himself. By extension, do any of us truly have a footprint, or are we attributed to our ancestors?

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