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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 11:08 
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St Thomas More Hospital

How fitting I find this on the 40th anniversary of Roe vs Wade

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 15:43 
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BobC wrote:
St Thomas More Hospital

How fitting I find this on the 40th anniversary of Roe vs Wade

Sad.

While I certainly don't agree with the position of the author, don't know the "other side" of the story and I understand that we live in a very litigious culture, an institution that purports to be a Catholic hospital should never use as a defense against a lawsuit the contention that a fetus "is not a person". Even if a finding against the hospital would, indeed, result in bankruptcy.

If, in fact, the hospital is using that defense, the charge of "hypocritical" is accurate.

Material bankruptcy, as bad as it is, pales in comparison to moral bankruptcy.

Of course, all that doesn't mitigate the hypocrisy of the story's author, who blithely speaks of the egg of a human being that has been fertilized by the sperm of a human being as something other than a human being.

That is the kind of "pro-choice" logic that I've never understood. They call the prenatal baby a "potential" human being in the early stages of development.

Using the term "potential" necessarily implies the possibility of becoming other than what an entity may become.

As a child, I had the potential to become a doctor or a professional athlete or — well, the possibilities are myriad; restricted only by opportunity, desire and ability.

But I did not have the potential to become something other than human because I was already human.

Just like that fertilized egg!

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 16:31 
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retsinab wrote:
...
While I certainly don't agree with the position of the author, don't know the "other side" of the story and I understand that we live in a very litigious culture, an institution that purports to be a Catholic hospital should never use as a defense against a lawsuit the contention that a fetus "is not a person". Even if a finding against the hospital would, indeed, result in bankruptcy.

If, in fact, the hospital is using that defense, the charge of "hypocritical" is accurate.

Material bankruptcy, as bad as it is, pales in comparison to moral bankruptcy.
...!
I think that if Obamacare is implemented we will find that many [most?] of our "Catholic" hospitals, universities, etc are Catholic in name only. They will have little problem adapting themselves to the government rules. There was a similar case recently in the Southwest where a "Catholic"Hospital approved an abortion.

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 17:51 
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Perhaps the question is, when does the soul enter the body for the first time? Is it the soul that gives the body "permission" to have life? Does the soul come from God? Is that what is meant by the statement "made in the image of God"? Is the soul a "piece" of God? Is the miracle of life the process which melds the soul to a human body therefore giving it personality and identity? Does the soul enter the body at the moment of conception? So the fertilized egg could conceivably (bad pun) be a person. The fetus has life protected by the mother's body therefore how could the fetus not be a person?

So is not any abortive process at any stage after conception not murder? How can one declare that the fetus is not a person? The drive of the sin of lust seeks to protect itself by saying things such as "the fetus is not a legal person". Wickedness desires sin to be permissive. Humanism seeks to change God's laws to suit themselves. So how could one proclaim that evil does not exist? How could one side exist without the other? Is it really "your" body? Is it not pride which prevents us from recognizing that since our sacred soul which comes from God and resides in a body not indicate that the body while alive belongs to God? Is the statement "You can't tell me what I can or cannot do with my body" blasphemous? Do you think God is stupid?

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 18:23 
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I saw this on a friend's Facebook wall recently. This comment seems the best analysis I can think of:

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...it appears the lawyers for the Catholic Hospital are doing whatever it takes to defend their client. That is the job of a defense lawyer. This lawyer may or may not be interested in Church teaching. It certainly appears that this hospital is hypocritical for allowing their lawyers to do so. But there is a PH factor in every church (as there are both Pharisees and Philistines in every church). This does not make Holy Mother Church's doctrines wrong, it just means that human beings fail to live as Christ has taught us to live. Is it a scandal? Sure appears to be, but our prayers should be with the father and the daughter who are grieving the loss of their wife/mother and two preborn blessings.

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 18:42 
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Kardinal wrote:
I saw this on a friend's Facebook wall recently. This comment seems the best analysis I can think of:

Quote:
...it appears the lawyers for the Catholic Hospital are doing whatever it takes to defend their client. That is the job of a defense lawyer. This lawyer may or may not be interested in Church teaching. It certainly appears that this hospital is hypocritical for allowing their lawyers to do so. But there is a PH factor in every church (as there are both Pharisees and Philistines in every church). This does not make Holy Mother Church's doctrines wrong, it just means that human beings fail to live as Christ has taught us to live. Is it a scandal? Sure appears to be, but our prayers should be with the father and the daughter who are grieving the loss of their wife/mother and two preborn blessings.


In my opinion, it is a given that the Church is never in error -always it is the men who falter. No analysis necessary on my part for what entails a matter of faith.

This is the first I have heard of this and in my opinion the legal arguments that deny truth are but ancillary to what action or policy etcetera requires a denial of truth to protect it. I could be wrong; however, the 'more to the story' is what I am interested in.

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 21:32 
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dlm wrote:
This is the first I have heard of this and in my opinion the legal arguments that deny truth are but ancillary to what action or policy etcetera requires a denial of truth to protect it. I could be wrong; however, the 'more to the story' is what I am interested in.


From what little I could find thus far it would appear that the lead defendant is Catholic Health Initiatives (a non-profit group that runs approximately 170 Hospitals) and NOT the Saint Thomas More Hospital. Further, I would guess as is usually the case that in reality it is really the malpractice insurance company that actually hires and steers the lawyers as well as directs the legal arguments.

My guess is that again the media is painting a picture much different from reality with this yet another Catholic bashing 'news' story.

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2013 22:28 
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dlm wrote:
dlm wrote:
This is the first I have heard of this and in my opinion the legal arguments that deny truth are but ancillary to what action or policy etcetera requires a denial of truth to protect it. I could be wrong; however, the 'more to the story' is what I am interested in.


From what little I could find thus far it would appear that the lead defendant is Catholic Health Initiatives (a non-profit group that runs approximately 170 Hospitals) and NOT the Saint Thomas More Hospital. Further, I would guess as is usually the case that in reality it is really the malpractice insurance company that actually hires and steers the lawyers as well as directs the legal arguments.

Good point about the insurance company, Daniel.

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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2013 11:29 
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Kardinal wrote:
dlm wrote:
dlm wrote:
This is the first I have heard of this and in my opinion the legal arguments that deny truth are but ancillary to what action or policy etcetera requires a denial of truth to protect it. I could be wrong; however, the 'more to the story' is what I am interested in.


From what little I could find thus far it would appear that the lead defendant is Catholic Health Initiatives (a non-profit group that runs approximately 170 Hospitals) and NOT the Saint Thomas More Hospital. Further, I would guess as is usually the case that in reality it is really the malpractice insurance company that actually hires and steers the lawyers as well as directs the legal arguments.

Good point about the insurance company, Daniel.

Would the hospital not then be a witness for the defence? Should they not then say "we do not agree with this defence"?

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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2013 14:20 
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matopos wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
dlm wrote:
dlm wrote:
This is the first I have heard of this and in my opinion the legal arguments that deny truth are but ancillary to what action or policy etcetera requires a denial of truth to protect it. I could be wrong; however, the 'more to the story' is what I am interested in.


From what little I could find thus far it would appear that the lead defendant is Catholic Health Initiatives (a non-profit group that runs approximately 170 Hospitals) and NOT the Saint Thomas More Hospital. Further, I would guess as is usually the case that in reality it is really the malpractice insurance company that actually hires and steers the lawyers as well as directs the legal arguments.

Good point about the insurance company, Daniel.

Would the hospital not then be a witness for the defence? Should they not then say "we do not agree with this defence"?

Again, the caveat: I have no way of knowing the accuracy nor the completeness of the original story. But IF it is accurate and IF this hospital is, indeed, a Catholic hospital (Admittedly, two very BIG and certainly unknown to me "ifs"), then doesn't the hospital have a duty to be sure that any attorney or law firm representing them does not use an argument that conflicts with Catholic Doctrine?

Surely, they would parse very carefully the arguments before allowing them to be used or publicized?

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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2013 15:17 
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matopos wrote:
Would the hospital not then be a witness for the defence? Should they not then say "we do not agree with this defence"?


The lawsuit involves wrongful death. The laws in Colorado do not consider a 'fetus' to be a human being. Technically speaking, the lawyers regardless who they serve are not actually arguing that a fetus is not a human being but rather they are citing the existing law as argument that the lawsuit is legally without premise.

I would assume that any Catholic does not agree with a law that does not consider a 'fetus' to be a human being; however, that fact is not on trial; neither is Catholic belief on trial (except in the media). It is wrongful death that is the question. I suspect that the Catholic Hospital will not be held to a standard outside the law regarding the legal definition of life.

I have a feeling there still is more to this story beyond the mud slinging and sensational 'news' trumpeted by the usual suspect; all enemies of the Church.

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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2013 15:45 
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As an aside let me add that I have seen some articles on the subject with headlines such as:

Catholic hospital wins lawsuit by arguing “fetuses are not people"

On the one hand and in my opinion, such a headline is intended for one purpose and that purpose has nothing to do with advancing truth.

On the other hand, the Colorado Bishops will review the situation and with that I assume will be evidenced some truth.

Colorado Bishops Respond to Catholic Health Initiatives Allegations

Quote:
The Catholic bishops of Colorado learned recently of the deaths of Lori Stodghill and her two unborn children, which took place at St. Thomas More Hospital in Cañon City, Colo. in 2006. We wish to extend our solidarity and sympathy to Lori’s husband Jeremy, and her daughter, Elizabeth. Please be assured of our ongoing prayers.

From the moment of conception, human beings are endowed with dignity and with fundamental rights, the most foundational of which is life.

Catholics and Catholic institutions have the duty to protect and foster human life, and to witness to the dignity of the human person—particularly to the dignity of the unborn. No Catholic institution may legitimately work to undermine fundamental human dignity.

Catholic Health Initiatives is a Catholic institution which provides health care services in 14 states, providing care to thousands of people annually. Catholic Health Initiatives has been accused by some of undermining the Catholic position on human life in the course of litigation. Today, representatives of Catholic Health Initiatives assured us of their intention to observe the moral and ethical obligations of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic bishops of Colorado are not able to comment on ongoing legal disputes. However, we will undertake a full review of this litigation, and of the policies and practices of Catholic Health Initiatives to ensure fidelity and faithful witness to the teachings of the Catholic Church.


Most Rev. Samuel J. Aquila, S.T.L., Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Denver

Most Rev. Michael Sheridan, S.Th.D, Bishop of the Diocese of Colorado Springs

Most Rev. Fernando Isern, Bishop of the Diocese of Pueblo


Summary thus far, no doubt there is seen a double standard as to the definition of life; however, the double standard is not one created by the Church. Those who imply that the Church rather than the courts and the laws create and impose this double standard are at best ignorant and at worst liars that attempt to employ at least one typical leftist strategy of attack upon enemies of collectivism as detailed in Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals"

Quote:
  • RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.

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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2013 22:57 
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dlm wrote:
The lawsuit involves wrongful death. The laws in Colorado do not consider a 'fetus' to be a human being. Technically speaking, the lawyers regardless who they serve are not actually arguing that a fetus is not a human being but rather they are citing the existing law as argument that the lawsuit is legally without premise.


Daniel's got it right, here. The defense isn't "since a fetus isn't a person, you can't collect damages", but rather, "since you don't define that a fetus is a person, you can't assess damages".

This line of defense leaves them open to the shallow interpretations that we're seeing in the media; yet, they've taken a Solomon-esque tack: "I will play the game that you're attempting to make me play -- but if you do so, I'll skewer what you claim to hold dear in the process. What is your higher priority: your victory, or what you claim to hold most dear?"

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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2013 06:53 
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Larry wrote:
dlm wrote:
The lawsuit involves wrongful death. The laws in Colorado do not consider a 'fetus' to be a human being. Technically speaking, the lawyers regardless who they serve are not actually arguing that a fetus is not a human being but rather they are citing the existing law as argument that the lawsuit is legally without premise.


Daniel's got it right, here. The defense isn't "since a fetus isn't a person, you can't collect damages", but rather, "since you don't define that a fetus is a person, you can't assess damages".

This line of defense leaves them open to the shallow interpretations that we're seeing in the media; yet, they've taken a Solomon-esque tack: "I will play the game that you're attempting to make me play -- but if you do so, I'll skewer what you claim to hold dear in the process. What is your higher priority: your victory, or what you claim to hold most dear?"

But the "you" who will suffer in the instance is a family who has lost three loved ones and is seeking compensation, not the society at large who defined a fetus as "non-human".

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PostPosted: 27 Jan 2013 07:24 
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retsinab wrote:
But the "you" who will suffer in the instance is a family who has lost three loved ones and is seeking compensation, not the society at large who defined a fetus as "non-human".


Assuming there was a wrongful death e.g. the hospital and or a member of the staff was negligent.

Regardless any negligence, you raise a point I often make -that injustice tends to create more injustice. I would not blame the Catholic hospital for the definition of life that allows many innocents to be intentionally slaughtered.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013 07:33 
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A response by the Colorado bishops:
http://www.archden.org/index.cfm/ID/9767

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013 20:49 
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retsinab wrote:
But the "you" who will suffer in the instance is a family who has lost three loved ones and is seeking compensation, not the society at large who defined a fetus as "non-human".


The family won't suffer any less for receiving a settlement, although 'compensation' is the only legal recourse open to them. And, of course, the "you" who would mandate the compensation is the same "you" who says that unborn children aren't persons, per se, from a legal perspective.

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013 15:23 
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All,

Has anyone had a look at what a field day the anti-Catholic corners of the web are having with this? (If you want to see what I mean just have a look at Jezebel.)

I'm reminded of the movie, starring Billy Connolly, The Man Who Sued God.

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Advocate Steve Myers is a disillusioned lawyer who becomes fed-up with the perceived corruption within the judicial system. He quits the law business and buys a small fishing boat and takes up fishing for a living. His fishing boat is struck by lightning and explodes into pieces, burns and sinks. He informs his insurance company, which reviews and then subsequently declines his claim on the grounds that it is not liable as his fishing boat was destroyed due to an 'Act of God'. Frustrated that his claim is repeatedly declined, Steve files a claim against God, naming church officials as representatives of God, and thereby the respondents. The church leaders, their respective lawyers, as well as their insurance company get together to find a way to settle this dilemma, which does catch the fancy of the media. It is in Court that God's representatives will have to admit that the destruction of Steve's fishing boat was actually God's Act, accept it, and compensate him, or deny it altogether, and thereby deny God's existence, and leave the onus on Steve to prove his claim.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Sued_God

In the movie the Catholic Church is the only religious organisation with integrity and consistency, refusing to deny in court the existence of God, and therefore having to pay Billy Connolly.

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PostPosted: 04 Feb 2013 21:23 
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Rather than rely on the mass media version of truth here is an update straight from the Bishops:

Statement addressing recent policies and practices of Catholic Health Initiatives

-small excerpt:
Quote:
Attorneys for St. Thomas More argued that the hospital provided the best possible medical care to Lori Stodghill and her sons, and that there was no possibility of saving their lives. Two courts affirmed that argument.

Evidence indicates that St. Thomas More Hospital undertook all possible efforts to save Lori Stodghill. Medical experts testified to that effect. They also testified that the Stodghill children tragically died before medical care commenced, so an emergency C-section would not have saved them. We have every reason to believe that St. Thomas More Hospital provided excellent and conscientious medical care in this case.

Attorneys for St. Thomas More Hospital argued that because unborn children are not defined as persons under Colorado’s Wrongful Death Act, the law did not permit this lawsuit. We became aware of this tragic situation on Thursday, January 24, 2013. We at once contacted the leadership of CHI for clarification.

CHI was unaware that legal counsel for St. Thomas More had aligned itself with an argument based upon an unjust law. CHI officials have assured us that they believed it was “morally wrong” to make recourse to an unjust law. They have also assured us that they will no longer utilize this unjust law if the case is heard before additional courts.

CHI joins us in our commitment to work for comprehensive change in Colorado’s law, so that the unborn may enjoy the same legal protections as all other persons.

We commend CHI for its rapid acknowledgment of this situation and its commitment to rectifying any harm it may have caused. We join CHI in affirming the fundamental truth that human life, human dignity, and human rights begin at conception. No law can ever mitigate God-given human rights. All Catholic persons and institutions, indeed all men and women of good will, share the solemn responsibility to support efforts aimed at establishing legal protection for the unborn.



Colorado Bishops, Catholic Health Initiatives Call for Strong Protection of the Unborn

-small excerpt:
Quote:
DENVER – Feb. 4, 2013 - Colorado’s top Catholic Church officials expressed their support for Catholic Health Initiatives after the national health care organization acknowledged that it was “morally wrong” for attorneys to cite the state’s Wrongful Death Act in defense of a lawsuit involving one of its affiliated hospitals.

Attorneys for St Thomas More Hospital, which is sponsored by Catholic Health Initiatives, cited the statute in legal proceedings in the tragic case of Lori Stodghill and her twin unborn sons, who died at the Cañon City hospital on New Year’s Day of 2006. The law does not consider unborn children to be persons, which contradicts the moral teachings of the Church.

The Catholic bishops of Colorado -- Archbishop Samuel Aquila of Denver, Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs, and Bishop Fernando Isern of Pueblo -- met last week to discuss the case with CHI senior leadership after announcing they would review the circumstances of the case.

CHI officials declared their firm commitment to one of the Church’s most basic moral teachings – that every person is created in the image and likeness of God and that life begins at the moment of conception. The CHI officials reiterated their deeply held belief that Colorado law fails to adequately protect the rights of the unborn, and expressed their commitment to work for laws that respect the rights of the unborn.


In my opinion, this tragic event has already produced some good and may yet inspire much more.

My takeaway thus far -the given obvious that one should not take mass media reported 'news' at face value and one should always look well beyond the headlines -the Church should not blindly rely on experts of the world and must always rely on what she knows -the Church must be consistent in words and deeds in ALL she does and in ALL areas she does so; if ALL is not coordinated and aligned with God then the efforts of even well intentioned men are prone to being misled and subverted by the errors of the world.

Promoting a culture of life by opposing the culture of death entails far more than the leftist framed labels of "war on women", "anti-choice", "anti-abortion", or "anti-family planning" imply.

I pray that the wisdom and truth again realized with this reminder will take root in all culture war battlefields -on all fronts where the war rages such as education, marriage and family. Letting the opposition define what the Church is against always entails a compromise and a loss of territory because it accepts a false worldly narrative; a limiting premise that if accepted becomes a self imposed limitation on efforts of the Church which necessarily translates into a denial of the unlimited power of God.

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