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I'm just curious... if you were to ask the average Catholic - not the ones who attend Mass every Sunday, but the ones who casually call themselves Catholic, what the mission of the Church is, what do you think he or she would say?

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Barb,

To teach, to sanctify, to rule.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

To feed the poor and teach us to do the same.

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Jeff Stevens

Why not ask some "average Catholics"?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Hi James and Jeff,

Thanks so much for your replies! I attended a lecture yesterday about the "HHS Mandate and the Constitution," at our parish and the discussion afterward led me to ponder a few things that I'm trying to work through. I'm grateful for your help in my efforts to do so.

Let me ask you this, regarding your answers. Are those the same answers you would give? Meaning, do you consider yourself an average Catholic and these are your answers? Are would you give a different answer? If so, what would you say the mission of the Church is?

Thanks again and God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Hi David,

I posed my question the way I did because I don't believe most of the Catholics who participate on this forum are what I would call "average" Catholics. I don't think the "average" Catholic spends time on the internet trying to grow in understanding of the Faith. I'm trying to work through some thoughts that occurred to me at a lecture I attended yesterday and thought I'd see what I could learn from my fellow forum participants, most of whom I have no doubt encounter "average" Catholics all the time, either in their families or at the workplace. That I ask the question here does not mean I haven't asked the same question outside of the forum, to those I do believe to be "average" Catholics.

Having said that, I'm not sure I should limit the question to what the "average" Catholic thinks the mission of the Church is. Perhaps I should have asked simply: what do you think the Mission of the Church is? and left it at that.

What do you think the Mission of the Church is, David?

God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Barb,

Does Sunday Mass attendance make one an "average catholic'?

If that is the case, no wonder the modern day church is in the mess that it is.

I would be curious to know what Fabrizio, considers an average catholic to be.

I shall watch this thread with interest, though I doubt I will take any further part. Must be an average catholic.

Peter

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"Lord to whom shall I go? Thou hast the words of eternal life"

Barb,

My guess is that if you ask 10 Catholics you will get 10 different answers. And the answers coming from those attending Mass every Sunday (or every day) are no more holy or accurate than the ones coming from those whom you are referring to as "average Catholics".

The over all mission of the Church is to bring the Kingdom of God into the world. According to "Ad Gentes" (the Vatican II document on missionary activity) the Church is to be a “universal sacrament of salvation” and is bring the kingdom of God (the word of God) to all nations.

That being said, there is no one way in which we do that. The Church brings the light of Christ into the world in many ways such as: social justice and social concerns activities, teaching, through the Sacraments, disaster relief, advocacy for the poor, comforting the dying and caring for the beavered, just to name a few.

Unfortunately a number of Catholics (yes, even those who attend Mass every day) have not yet made the connection that they are the Church. In other words, bringing God into the world is not just the responsibility of the priests or bishops, it's the responsibility of each one of us. And how we do it, can vary for each one of us.

You said to David:

Barb, if this is how you differentiate between a "faithful" and an "average" Catholic, the Missionaries of Charity would fall into the "average" category. To the best of my knowledge they don't spend a lot of time on the internet.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Hi Effie,

Thanks for your contribution. I shall ponder it as I try to work through the things the lecture caused me to think about.

There are many things I don't think the "average" Catholic does. I don't think the average Catholic spends time trying to grow in his or her Faith, be that through seeking greater knowledge on the internet, greater participation in the Sacraments, or becoming a religious, or seeking to enhance his or her prayer life by reading the Scriptures or the lives of the saints, or any of a thousand different ways one can grow closer to our Lord.

But the thing I'm thinking about may not be limited to what I perceive to be a problem with being lukewarm about one's Faith. It may in fact be a condition of the Church today, in general.

I'll need to give it more thought. Again - thanks for your response; it's been very helpful!

God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your post. I'm not sure what I was thinking about concerning what actually constitutes an "average" Catholic. Maybe there's no such thing. And maybe it isn't relevant to what I was trying to understand.

I'm trying to get a sense of what does the typical, average, every day, garden variety, Catholic think the mission of the Church is?

But after reading Effie's answer, I suspect she's right. The Catholics who attend daily Mass are probably no more likely to give a common answer as are the C and E Catholics.

I shall have to ponder that a bit.

Meanwhile, thanks again and God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Absolutely not.


Frankly, I consider myself minimally qualified to call myself a real Catholic. Not because I spend any significant time on the Internet or anywhere else witnessing for the faith, but because I am only adequately informed and do what is probably minimally necessary to keep myself out of Hell.

I pray daily, at least a little bit, usually not much more.
I read about the faith occasionally, but not regularly.
I read the Bible occasionally, but not regularly.
I do corporal works of mercy occasionally, but not regularly.
I do spiritual works of mercy regularly.
I tithe to the church, charities, and the diocese.
I own a Catechism and occasionally read Church documents.
I go to weekly Ordinary Form Mass, no more.
I go to Benediction monthly.
I go to Adoration occasionally.
I pray with my family before meals and sometimes before bedtime.

I feel like this is the minimum necessary, the barely adequate, to be a good Catholic man in my state of life (married, middle class American).

So if by "average" you mean "what most should reasonably be doing", I probably fall below the average.

If by "average" you mean "the sum of all measures divided by the population", I fall far above the average. That is no comment on my sanctity, but rather the sorry state of affairs in the world.

If by "average" you refer to the mean, as in, "the level at which there are an equal number above and below", I fall far above the mean. That is no comment on my sanctity, but rather the sorry state of affairs in the world.


I like James' for pithiness, but it's a bit too short. The Church's mission is to save souls, to fulfill the Great Commission, to make disciples of all men, and that they live the Christian life to the fullest possible. To this end, the Church engages in activities designed to bring all men into herself, to sanctify those inside it, and create a just structure in which all can live together in peace and charity.

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Jeff Stevens

Barb,

I think "practicing Catholic" differentiated from "non-practicing or nominally practicing Catholic) might be better terms than "average" though neither term is ideal. Many "average" "practicing" Catholics go to Sunday Mass often or even every week but not much more..they may be those who come every week late and leave early every week and feel they've fulfilled their duty without giving much thought to anything else.

In any case, I think that serious, practicing Catholics and nominally Catholic people will have a similar range of answers and I suspect many American members of the church at least, will give social justice types of answers...doing the corporal works of mercy and not think more deeply than that. Some people seem to feel that is the only mission of the church and probably wouldn't even mention salvation and heaven. I think my own answer would be the same as James and Jeff's...both of whom expressed it better than I would have.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

I probably should look this up to give an informed answer, but off the top of my head I would say it is to spread the Gospel and save (bring to God) as many souls as possible.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,



You needn't trouble yourself, I've already given it. (It's something memorized, Catechism-like, in Catholic childhood.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Barb,



Yes. It happens to be correct.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

All,

Okay, before anyone challenges me...

viewtopic.php?f=223&t=10881&hilit=+tria+munera+

Some basic things all Catholics should know. Scroll down to Tria Munera.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Thanks so much to all of you for your replies! They have been most helpful. It wasn't meant to be a "test" of any sort, as I assumed all our participants here know what the Church's mission is. As I noted somewhere above, I don't view the participants on this forum as what I was calling "average" Catholics, as no one would be here if they weren't looking to grow in understanding of the Faith and that's not something I think the "average" Catholic does.

Val, I think you're right that "practicing" versus "nonpracticing" might be a better way to describe the difference I was thinking of, though I'm not sure it's a difference that matters when it comes to what I was trying to sort out or validate for myself. I think both you and Jeff got to the heart of it: that most Catholics, be them practicing or nonpracticing, "average" or "not average," would answer that the mission of the Church has something to do, in one way or another, with "social justice" type things, with feeding the poor, caring for the sick, helping the homeless... while, in fact, the true mission of the Church is as nearly everyone has alluded to in various ways: spreading the Gospel and saving souls. (Through teaching, sanctifying, ruling... through being the Sacrament of Salvation... ) The Second Person of the Holy Trinity took on a human nature in order to come into the world and open the door of salvation to us.

Peter Kreeft spoke somewhere, in one of his books I read some time ago but can't remember which now, about this difference between what the Church teaches about herself and what "most Catholics" believe about her. A college professor who teaches about religion, he described how every year or semester, every new crop of students he gets, he poses this scenario and question to them: "You have died and arrive at the Pearly Gates; St. Peter is there and asks you why he should let you in; what do you say? How do you answer him?" Kreeft describes how, almost without exception over the many, many years he's done this, all the Protestants answer: "Because Jesus died for my sins and told me that if I believe, I will be saved." All the Catholics answer: "Because I've been a good person."

We've had many discussions here on the forum, in one form or another over the years, about this topic and I think most of the forum members here would agree that this is a problem among Catholics today, though we may disagree about the extent of it and about the need for it. I think most will agree that there has been, over the past 50 years or more, a far greater emphasis on the Church's "social teachings" and not enough on her spiritual teachings. Whether one believes that was a necessary corrective to what was once too great an emphasis on the spiritual and too little on the social or whether one believes it's been the result of the emergence of Marxism and other forms of socialism - either way, I think we can all agree that there's been an imbalance that we need to address.

We can debate the origins and value of the issue in other threads, but in this thread I wanted to get at something else, something that occurred to me following the lecture I attended last Sunday, on the HHS Mandate and the Constitution. Have you ever had a thought, a kind of fleeting idea, a notion of sorts, that presented itself in your mind, or your heart, that left a sense of something, something not really clear, but rather a fuzzy kind of sense of something? That's what I'm trying to sort out and hoping that you can help me do so. But you'll have to bear with me, as I really don't have any idea where it's going to lead. Rather - it's something I think we might want to explore.

Here's the thing... the lecture followed on the heels of my having watched the movie The Cardinal. The movie struck me as very timely - it ends as the Nazis are going after the "Catholic troublemakers" and with a speech from the Cardinal about the importance of America and our commitment to political freedom. He speaks of the "hell on earth that results if totalitarianism prevails." As I said, it seemed very timely and most pertinent to what we are facing here in our country as the government seems on a path toward what can only be called totalitarianism, and seems determined to suppress the "Catholic troublemakers" who refuse to get into line on such issues as abortion, contraception, secularization.

The lecture was a review of all the many legal cases over the years that have been one successive assault on religious freedom after another. The professor of political science who gave the lecture did an excellent job of showing just how vulnerable and how ominous our situation is. He pointed out that not only are there legal precedents now for the current administration to prevail in its current efforts to suppress religious freedom of thought, there are also other paths open to it that aren't even being spoken of. For example, the recent Bob Jones University case in which the IRS won. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the IRS, establishing that an organization whose beliefs are contrary to established public policy has no grounds for receiving exemption from taxation. In that case, the established public policy was civil rights and anti-discrimination. Had Bob Jones not changed its code, it would have lost its tax exempt status. If the Obama administration succeeds in making access to contraception an established public policy, as a component of providing women with "preventive healthcare", then it doesn't matter if the Church "wins" the religious freedom debate and it doesn't matter if she's exempted from having to provide employees with contraception as part of their healthcare package. The Government wins something much bigger: the right to remove the Church's tax exempt status. The Church will be free to believe and to teach and practice her beliefs however she wants; but if that teaching and practice is contrary to "public policy", she'll have to do so minus her tax exempt status.

Think about that. The fines for not offering healthcare are nothing compared to the size of the prize for the Government if it's able to tax all Church property - religious or merely institutional.

But that's not really the thing I've started this thread to discuss, though it is one of the things that prompted it. More on that later....

Thanks again for all your excellent contributions! I hope you'll stick with me as I work through the real issue...

God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Barb,

I will answer for myself as what is more than likely a non average Catholic.

Let me suggest that my signature quote sums up my thoughts on just what the mission is.

In essence, Jesus, established the Church to facilitate and guarantee the mission; perpetuating the Word, the Law, the Division -providing the light...

Everything else comes secondary and only genuinely expressed when a byproduct of the mission, the Word.

One could say, that which separates Government services from Church mission is what is mission essential.

At this time of crisis, I pray that the essential is not sacrificed and compromised for the non essential. I feel this is where the Church finds itself now in regards to the Obama administration and the left.

The many martyrs throughout history did not die for the sake of feeding the poor, attaining education equality, providing social justice, free health care, attaining a carbon free environment, or income equality -these are perversions of the Word when their very pursuit denies any aspect of the Word. These perversions of truth are not what Christ suffered for on the cross -as such, they are NOT the mission.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel...

I'm pretty clear on what you think the mission isn't. You spent half your message describing it. But I'm not totally clear on what the mission IS...

So the mission is to bring division?

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Jeff Stevens

I wasn't going to challenge you, though you didn't exactly quote a magisterial source. I think your answer was excellent, but it was too concise; it really doesn't explain much, it's more a "reminder answer" than a real answer.

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Jeff Stevens

I was simply elaborating on what Christ stated -my signature quote.

Is that clear enough for you?

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

No, not really. But that's okay. As I think everyone knows, it's not a requirement that I understand. Which is very good, because there is much I don't understand.

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Jeff Stevens

Christ made the statement. The succinct simplicity of the all encompassing statement is ingenious in my opinion. The statement itself a sword that cuts clearly and itself identifies the division that many point to as 'wrong' as being very 'right' -genuine. Beware the false peace makers! Anyway, I elaborated very briefly upon the application of the meaning -the meaning applied is infinite based upon my understanding.

Faith seeking understanding.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Barb:

What an excellent, thought-provoking discussion. I think many average Catholics would answer your question with a "huh?" or a "duh" or an open, gaping mouth look of "what does that question mean?" Some would leave their mouth open long enough for a fly to enter (LOL). Maybe it's mean to say that, but I honestly think that.

Then, when you clarify that the question means, "what's the Church's job description, what is the main goal, the reason why Jesus started a Church?" people would say, more or less along with what Dr. Kreeft said, "oh, I think the Church is supposed to help us be good." And then good would be defined as being nice, accepting people of all stripes, helping the poor, and bringing us together and getting us to answer, a la Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?"

Sadly, Jesus would not enter the definition except by way of someone who Himself was really good and nice, and didn't want people to feel bad about themselves.

If I had to respond succinctly, I would say that the Church's mission is to apply to souls, in time and space and history, the graces and fruits of the Blood Atonement of Calvary so that souls persevere in divine charity and are saved from hellfire. "Save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy."

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

In writing a mission statement it is important to distinguish between the mission and the means of accomplishing it. Whenever someone suggests something as the mission ask WHY? If he has an answer his suggestion is the means of accomplishing the answer. Then ask why the answer. Keep asking why until you get to the basic mission.

I would suggest that the Church's Mission is Matthew 28:18-21. All else is how the Church accomplishes this.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Jeff,

The longer, and more authoritative, response.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


Yes, it was very much a "reminder answer". That's how we used to be taught. If I were asked "What are the Four Last Things", I'd answer "Death, Judgement, Heaven and Hell" and I'd be confident of being understood. I wouldn't define the word "death", or describe Hell.

One good thing about "reminder answers" (apart from being easily remembered) is that they serve as a protection against the heterodoxy that might inadvertently slip into a more discursive, rambling answer.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I agree, James. I'm currently working to figure out how to start teaching my son the Baltimore Catechism.

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

Simply get him to memorise it.

I'm reminded of an amusing scene in the film Young Winston. The six year old Churchill has been taken by his mother to Harrow to enrol him. The Headmaster hands Churchill a Latin Grammar open at the declension mensa/mensae and tells him to memorize it while he interviews his mother. When they return the boy has indeed memorized it. The Headmaster asks Churchill whether he has any questions. He has: what is the vocative for? On being told that the vocative would be used if addressing a table, Churchill responds "But Sir, I don't address tables".

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

It's just like memorizing the times tables or phonics. It's the "alphabet" of our Faith, and if we treat it the same way, it's surprisingly easy to see it as just another thing to learn along those lines.

The Saint Joseph BC starts with the First Communion book. It has exactly the same questions as the bigger books, just fewer of them. Do a question or two every night at dinner. "Who made the world?" "Who is God?" They're basic questions with basic answers.

Of course, a person could post those as topics here and start an in depth discussion, just like this one on the mission of the Church, but there is a definitive answer, and understanding the basic meaning of those questions and answers is fairly simple, too. The explanations are pretty simple for the lowest level book and a bit more in depth as they go on.

The discussions that follow, like this one, are good for figuring out what it means and what we as Catholics need to do about it.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

This has been an interesting discussion, but I am still trying to wrap my head around "What is an average Catholic". I realize I haven't a clue.

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Bob C

How could you define it? We were looking at the TV when they were saying that in Ohio, most of the Catholics were voting for Romney. I mentioned that I wondered how many of those Catholics went to Mass every Sunday. I found myself almost wishing they wouldn't have identified themselves as Catholic, but I pulled myself short of that, because I know everyone Baptized properly is Catholic, whether they want to be or not. They belong to us even when we find ourselves wincing over them.

How would anyone average us? It's a quantitative measure for a non-quantitative idea. Out of all the American Catholics, sixty-odd percent (or is it seventy-odd, now?) don't go to Mass on Sunday. Does that mean the average Catholic is in a state of mortal (or at least grave) sin?

~shrugs~

I think most of the people I talk to who who were brought up or perhaps just Baptized Catholic but not currently regular church goers would say something to the effect that the Church is here to be a *force* for *good* where those two words might or might not have definitions similar to the ones I would use.

I think most of the people I talk to who go to my parish would say some variation of what James said in the second post, which is the correct answer per the Catechism. (teach, sanctify, govern)

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Years ago Christianity Today, had a series of articles about Catholicism. I looked but could not find a link, it has been that long ago.

The article described 5 types of Catholics.

1) The Cultural Catholic: The person is catholic because that's what his family does, he is baptized but basically unchurched.

2) The Seasonal Catholic: That person who attends church on Christmas, Easter, Weddings and Funerals...and rarely any other time.

3) The Sunday Catholic: Who attends church on Sunday, but not much else.

4) The Devout Catholic: Who attends church regularly, studies what the church teaches, is active in church and parish activities.

5) The Evangelical Catholic Who also is involved as #4 but is fearless about seeking persons to talk to about and convert to Catholicism.


I have greatly simplified the descriptions, but the articles struck me as very accurate in their descriptions of Catholic types.

I think the average Catholic is probably numbers 2 & 3 above.

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Bob C

Hi Father Sotelo,

Thanks so much for your post! That's been my experience as well. Most Catholics I encounter - and maybe the word I should use is "typical" more than "average" - have precisely those kinds of reactions that you describe so well. I remember the day I went to the local Catholic school's Open House, during Catholic education week, to learn more about the school prior to enrolling my daughter for kindergarten. I had been planning for her to go there for five years and was more excited than you could imagine that she'd finally get to sign up and go to a Catholic school. After the tour, I asked them, "So how does the school integrate our Faith into our children's education?" (A similar, one would think even easier question than "what's the Mission of the Church?") The reaction was exactly as you describe: a puzzled look, the "huh?", "excuse me?" So I repeated, "How do you integrate our Faith into our children's education?" (Afterall - it was a Catholic school and one would think that meant something, right?) The administrator's reply? "Oh! They have their RE class." I said, "No, that's not what I meant. How do you integrate our Faith into our children's education?" I remember the look of utter incomprehension as she repeated, both much louder and much more slowly: "They... have... their... RE... class." (You know, the way people speak to those who are either deaf or dumb. ) I said, "Oh, I see....so they have, Math, Science, English, God, Gym....God is just another subject?" Again the puzzled look, and then, "Well, yes, exactly!" Needless to say, we didn't send our daughter there. We wanted her to get what used to be a traditional Catholic education, so we sent her over to the local Christian school instead! (Their answer to my question was preceded by the largest smile, "Ah, well, sit down and allow me to answer that question fully for you! That's exactly what makes our school so exceptional!")

I have found just what you describe: most Catholics believe the Church is about teaching us to be good people which yes, almost invariably, means "being nice, being kind, being tolerant, feeding the poor." Rare is the Catholic who speaks of the Church in terms of salvation. Rarer still is the Catholic who speaks of the Church in terms of Grace. You wrote:

Quote:
If I had to respond succinctly, I would say that the Church's mission is to apply to souls, in time and space and history, the graces and fruits of the Blood Atonement of Calvary so that souls persevere in divine charity and are saved from hellfire. "Save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy."

That is exactly what I had hoped we would get to! I have to go but will find some time today to post what I've come to understand about that fuzzy thought that entered my mind when I was at the lecture on the HHS Mandate Sunday. This thread has helped me enormously in clarifying what it is and I think I'm ready to put it into words.

Thanks again, Father!

With Love and Prayers,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Let's pause and reflect on one of today's readings, before moving on with our subject.

Thus says the Lord:

Quote:
Cursed is the man who trusts in human beings, who seeks his strength in flesh, whose heart turns away from the Lord. He is like a barren bush in the desert that enjoys no change of season, but stands in a lava waste, a salt and empty earth.

Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose hope is the Lord. He is like a tree planted beside the waters that stretches out its roots to the stream: it fears not the heat when it comes, its leaves stay green; in the year of drought it shows no distress, but still bears fruit.

More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it? I, the Lord, alone probe the mind and test the heart, to reward everyone according to his ways, according to the merit of his deeds.

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Hi Barb:

That's a very appropriate passage of Scripture to this discussion!

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

I have to agree with James' comment, as it also becomes a very good way to train the memory. I was amused by the story of Young Winston, as I vividly remember my first day at college and having as my latin homework to learn the first declension mensa. Another recent memory flashback has been the change in the words used at the Consecration in the new Missal "In the same manner" and I find myself saying "Simili modo". It brought back all those years as an altar server of the Tridentine Mass. The priest would say the words quietly to himself whilst bending before the altar, but as an altar boy you were close enough to hear. Both my above recollections date back almost 70 years.

Wish I could remember what happened last week

Peter

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"Lord to whom shall I go? Thou hast the words of eternal life"

Peter,



Naturally. The new translation is accurate, the old wasn't.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Okay, so, I think we can all agree to a few things, from the discussion thus far:

1st - Father Sotelo stated:

Quote:
...the Church's mission is to apply to souls, in time and space and history, the graces and fruits of the Blood Atonement of Calvary so that souls persevere in divine charity and are saved from hellfire. "Save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy."

2nd - From James' quotes from Catechism:

Quote:
Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command.
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Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates.
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When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."
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The Eucharist is the center of the life of the particular Church. The bishop and priests sanctify the Church by their prayer and work, by their ministry of the word and of the sacraments. They sanctify her by their example, "not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock."
Quote:
"The bishops, as vicars and legates of Christ, govern the particular Churches assigned to them by their counsels, exhortations, and example, but over and above that also by the authority and sacred power" which indeed they ought to exercise so as to edify, in the spirit of service which is that of their Master.

I think we can all agree that while social justice is one of the ways in which we live our Faith, the mission of the Church is not to focus on bringing about social justice on earth, but rather to preach the Gospel and offer the Sacraments in order to lead souls to the sanctifying grace that saves souls.

So - given that...

Let me turn finally to the thought that permeated my consciousness during the lecture I attended on the HHS Mandate, the fuzzy little thing that caused me to start this thread which has helped that thought slowly become clear and come to fruition in my mind...

The lecture was given by a conservative professor of political theory, a good and solid Catholic who addressed the issue of the HHS Mandate precisely as our Bishops have collectively addressed it and precisely as I had been addressing it: "the real issue is not contraception and abortificiants; the issue is religious and political freedom." Indeed, I had just watched the movie "The Cardinal" and still had the cardinal's final words ringing in my head: "...the hell on earth that results if totalitarianism prevails."

And then he turned to the case about Bob Jones University, which had appealed to the Supreme Court the ruling by the IRS to revoke its Tax Exempt status, due to it supporting and advocating a policy that was contrary to established Public Policy. Bob Jones lost its case. The Court ruled that an organization that supports policies contrary to the public interest as expressed in public policy, has no grounds for being exempt from taxes. It is not serving a public good that would justify such an exemption. The professor pointed out that if Obamacare succeeds in making Contraception established public policy, the Church could very well lose her tax exempt status.

She could win in keeping her religious freedom, her political freedom of not having to pay for employee coverage of contraception, but if Obamacare succeeds in having it recognized as a part of "Preventive Healthcare for Women" that the government rules must be included in healthcare coverage, then the Church keeps her political and religious freedom but could lose her tax exempt status. He pointed out that with as much property as the Church owns, that would be devasting financially to one parish after another, one Catholic school after another, one Catholic hospital after another... The result would be devastating to the Church.

And then that little thought appeared in my mind: "Oh my Lord, it IS about contraception!"

And as I tried to work that thought through, what it meant, I kept coming back to the question I had to ask all of you, all of us: what is the Church's mission? Is it political freedom? Is it religious freedom?

Or is it preaching the Truth? Is it saving souls?

We are where we are today, over 50 million aborted innocent little lives, and who knows how many more than that aborted through contraceptives, and who knows how many souls lost in the act of committing those horrendous murders, because the Church, our Bishops, backed away from their core MISSION - to spread the Truth, Humanae Vitae, to those in their care. They turned from preaching and teaching, and sanctifying, through the teaching of Humanae Vitae to preaching and focusing on Social Justice issues... and helped thereby to wreak this cultural devastation in which we are now drowning.

And now - when once again it appears that God Himself has placed before them the opportunity to teach about the Dignity of Human Life, they are all - in unison - screaming what? "It's NOT ABOUT CONTRACEPTION, it's about POLITICAL and RELIGIOUS FREEDOM."

Is it?

Is that any different from what they've been doing all these many years?

Is it REALLY about political and religious freedom? Aren't those just another side of the Social Justice coin?

Or is it REALLY about CONTRACEPTION?

With Love and Prayers,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

I think if I were the devil, I would hate humans most of all because they're God's greatest creation. I would want there to be as few humans as possible and I would work to make them nothing better than animals.

From that angle it would be about birth control.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

But doesn't the devil want to capture as many souls as possible? If there were no humans (who often seem like his greatest allies) what would he be doing?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Do we really need to worry about keeping the devil busy if there were no people? Somehow I can't bring myself to care about the devil having a meaningful career.

I would say that rather than wanting to capture souls, he wants to prevent souls from knowing the love of God. Capturing souls (through means such as encouraging them to behave like mere animals) and preventing them from being created would both satisfy that objective.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Hi Rose,

I think the victory for Satan is getting the Church to take its collective eyes off the one thing on which it should be focused: Jesus. The Word. The Truth. It seems to me that Obama already won Satan's victory for him the minute he got the Church to agree to Obamacare, provided it gave the Church an exemption. What did the Bishops agree to? What did Cardinal Dolan say? If I recall correctly, he said he agreed back in August to support Obamacare because he was assured that the Church would not have to comply, but would be exempted under the conscience clause. So, he agreed that everyone else should have to supply abortificients to their employees? Really? Wow. He couldn't have stood up and said there is no way the Church will agree to support something that would force Americans to participate in and contribute to an intrinsic evil, even if Catholics would be exempted?

Instead, he and our bishops agreed back in August to support Obamacare, despite its provisions on Contraceptives and Abortificients? And now he's shocked and saying we were duped? And on gay marriage in NY? "Duped" there too?

It's like Peter walking on the water all over again. Takes his eyes off Jesus and oops, look, I'm sinking.

Satan's victory in this battle appears to me to have been won already. I have no doubt that Our Lord will turn it, ultimately, into a victory for His little ones, for us. But I suspect what we could have learned easily by keeping our eyes on Him will have to be learned the hard way, with greater pain and suffering. In this particular battle, the Bishops had a chance back in August to stand up and say they would not, could not, support a healthcare bill that forced all Americans, including all Catholic owners of businesses, including all Christian owners of businesses, to provide contraceptives to their employees. They could have used it as an occasion to teach about the dignity of life. They could have it used it as an occasion to teach about the evil of contraceptives.

Surely, they would have been, in doing so, a voice of contradiction. A voice of scorn and contempt to the country. And surely they would have been ridiculed even more than they already are.

But can you imagine the graces that would have flowed from that? Into the Church? Into the Bishops? Into our country? Blessed are those who are persecuted for my Name's sake...

Instead, they chose to stand firm and fight for something more socially acceptable: political and religious freedom. I was thrilled going to Mass those first few weeks and hearing homily after homily about how our bishops are standing collectively, as one, and fighting against Obamacare, fighting for our political and religious freedom.

But then it occurred to me that what I've not yet heard is even one homily on the evils of using contraceptives.

Maybe it's just my local parishes though. When was the last time you heard a homily on the evil of using contraceptives?

With Love and Prayers,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

I'm no expert on what the devil wants, but I still think his main desire is to keep souls from having the thing he can't have, which is happiness with God, which according to the Catechism is what mankind was made for. One could argue that the devil's completely focused on God, for all the good it does him. Everything you describe is tactics.

I'm from a different sort of parish than the norm. I hear about the evils of contraception at least once or twice a year since our pastor got here in 2000, and almost every week since the HHS Mandate first came out.

Here's what I really think about what this is about:

If, in their own reckoning, 98% of all women use contraception (the numbers are flawed, but I'm following their logic here because I'm trying to follow their thought), then this is not about access. If 98% of all women use it, then that's probably as many as want to use it, and if 98% are getting it, this is not a question of access. Forcing everyone to pay for it will not make the slightest difference in who gets or uses it, according to the Democrats' own reckoning.

So, no, I don't think this has much to do with actual birth control. Something else is going on.

It's been suggested on Fr. Z's website (or perhaps a site he linked to) that the Chinese will insist upon one-child policies in their debtor-nations in the future. I'm not sure that's true, but putting birth control pills in every bathroom cabinet is an obvious step in that direction.

It's also been suggested to me that this is completely about weakening the Catholic Church in America. There are many reasons/groups who would want to do this, and I wouldn't know which to give credence to. At any rate, this is about the Mission of the Church insofar as it's about preventing the Church from carrying that mission out. Except those who are doing this aren't paying very good attention. The Catholic mission to be a "force" for "good" is generally seen in schools and hospitals and things like that. We may have to give those things up at some point, but our true mission, to bring souls to Christ, will be unaffected. As the Pope has said, our Church will be smaller but in a lot of ways stronger.

Now, the ugly conversation I would like to see come out of all this is why it's a women's issue. Some people have very carefully pitted every woman in America (or at least all those included in that 98%) against the Catholic Bishops. Women are being used in a way feminism shouldn't allow, and on an issue which should concern men every bit as much, but men in general are silent. However, last I knew three years ago when my youngest was born anyway, human reproduction requires two genders. Why does this issue only belong to one gender?

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)