Catholic Online Forum

Is baptism a covenant?

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

It's a Sacrament, but so is Marriage and marriage is a Covenant. How do you think Baptism is a Covenant?

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Bob C

A candidate at RCIA asked the question.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

OK heres what I found: Catholic Encyclopedia Our Sunday Visitor edition:




I do not see that Baptism would fall into that criteria.

AND BTW, that may have been the fastest response I ever had to a post.

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Bob C

Thanks, Bob! I appreciate your swift response.

Some time ago I read this: http://monkallover.blogspot.com/2006/09 ... re-we.html
and even though it is about the Eucharist, the definition of covenant is explained clearly.

If a covenant is indeed a binding vow that is agreed to and entered with the understanding that it is an "unto death" vow then I can see it applying to marriage and the Eucharist. In some ways I can see it applying to baptism too but not 100%.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

Mary-Love,

Baptism is entry into the covenant established by the blood of Christ, just as circumcision was entry into the old covenant established with Moses.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Baptism places an indelible mark upon the soul that can never be removed. That would seem to cover the "unto death" part of things, since it goes even beyond death.

However, to ask if it's a covenant by someone in RCIA (presumably by someone with an evangelical protestant background?)... I would ask what they mean by the term covenant. Quite often the protestant understanding of words is completely different than the Catholic one.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Yup - Pentecostal.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

True.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

We do enter into a covenant at baptism, or why would be talk about 'baptismal vows' - which are, in modern times, renewed at the Easter Vigil every year by those who attend. They don't have the same canonical force as the vows of marriage or of religious life. However, in accepting baptism we do pledge ourselves to live a Christian life. That is one reason for the historical practice of a long catechumenate. In the (traditional) Roman rite, this is ennunciated in the rejection of Satan, his works and his empty promises, and by the turning to Christ - testified to by Tertullian and also by St. Basil among the Greeks.


Apostolic Constitutions:

St. Justin Martyr says that baptism was only given to those who promised to live a Christian life - the Greeks use the formula "I surrender myself to thee, O Christ, to be ruled by thy precepts" which about covers it.


However, what I would say to the candidate for reception into full communion is that while baptism entails a covenant, it is also more than that - the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not to be sniffed at. Baptism brings us into the Church, but being part of the Church also means becoming a son or daughter of God the Father. This is only possible because we are, from the very moment we are baptised, caught up into the divine life. Which is totally awesome. The other thing is that, just as in the old covenant with Israel (or that with Abraham, to whom the promise was given rather than the Law), God remains faithful even if we don't. His promise is not rendered null and void if we slip up - that's why we have the sacrament of reconciliation. I think I'd also stress that, assuming the person was baptised correctly, they already have this divine life - the beginnings of 'heaven'.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Once Baptized, we also have a share in the covenant between God and Abraham, who is our father in faith, which was fulfilled by Our Lord Jesus Christ.

My concern is that you make sure your understanding of the word is the same as the person you're speaking with. It's going on 30 years, now, but I recall sitting in my non-denominational-but-mostly-Baptist high school and being taught what "covenant" means, and it wasn't quite what I'd learned in nine years of Catholic school.

Once you get the terms figured out, it's a really good opportunity for everyone to talk/think about.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Although the reflections on the character of baptism and the entrance into the Body of Christ in this thread have been quite beautiful, the question has left me scratching my head.

Aren't covenants permanent (that is, unable to be broken)? However, one may, by a formal act of defection, renounce one's status as a member of the Catholic Church.

Isn't consent an essential requirement of a covenant? That is, can one who has not reached the age of reason enter into a covenant, even when his parent offers consent in his place?

I'm not saying that infant baptism is invalid, mind you... just wondering whether, in the context of infant baptism, we can say that it's a covenant (in the Catholic understanding)...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Larry,

Baptism leaves a permanent mark upon the soul that no act of defection can remove.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Larry,



Both canon lawyers who taught me in the seminary have said that development in law has held that it is not possible for a member of the Catholic Church to renounce membership, even though there is reference in the 1983 code to a formal act of defection. Hence, even if a baptized Catholic never practices his faith or writes to his bishop stating that he is leaving the Church, for instance, he is still subject to the Catholic form of marriage, and any marriage he attempts outside of Catholic form without permission of the bishop is held by the Church to be invalid.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That is what I was looking for.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

I've read that a covenant is an exchange of people while a contract is an exchange of good and services.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

Yes... ish. My parents are getting similar questions in the RCIA class they're teaching. My first response is always, "Exactly what do they mean by that question?" It sounds like a lot of legalese, but with the evangelicals particularly, they're very precise and very careful in how they define and state things.

The promises of Baptism may not have any worldly force in a covenantal sense, but that mark on the soul will be there for all eternity and is eternally binding.

Marriage is a worldly reality that has a lot of worldly ramifications. Yet spiritually, it's a reflection of that relationship we have with God through... Baptism.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Certainly, and I'm not disputing that. However, does that imply "covenant", especially given that (I thought that) covenants require consent...?

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

OK... so, even if some sort of "formal act" existed, it would just be a legal maneuver, and not something that effects his state of being.

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Larry, you are correct, although neither of the canon lawyers who taught me could identify a method by which a formal act of defection could be effected either.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Larry,

Maybe you'd be interested in reviving this thread on the Sacraments, when they're done, and why.

You raise a good question (and I would love to have more input on that thread because not all my questions were answered).

I suspect the question you raise, about consent, is part of why we have Confirmation usually at or after the child reaches the didactic phase of development.

Confirmation is much more readily seen as a covenant in my eye because of the conversation between Confirmand and Bishop, and when Baptims is done after the age of 5-7 or so, they're usually done at the same time.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Re: infant baptism.

If a king betrothes his year-old daughter to the six-year-old son of another king, the betrothal is considered binding. Of course, for the actual (later) marriage, the consent of the two in question would be required! It's just an example of parents acting on behalf of their children.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

It is my recollection that one could formally defect from the Church by a written statement to the Bishop in earlier times. This was revoked a few decades back. It seemed an unnecessary legality. If one left the Church why would he care whether the Church recognized his defection.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Regarding leaving the Church, a co-worker was a Buddhist. A Christian approached his guru and asked to become Buddhist.

The guru told him he could become Buddhist, but he would still be Christian. He asked if that meant he had been thoroughly brainwashed by Christianity.

The guru said that was not the case. The guru noted that he had been baptized, and that Christian baptism plants a seed of truth in one that can never be removed.

I thought that a good explanation coming from a non-Christian.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I just recently heard a news story about someone, in Canada I think, who is suing the Catholic Church to have himself removed from the Church rolls. If I can find it I'll post a link.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

If the parties have to consent at the time of the marriage, then it would seem that the prior betrothal was not really binding.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

In fact, it begs the question of the meaning of the word "betrothal", especially vis-a-vis the notion of marriage. If we're looking at this in the context of the Church, and not of secular conventions, then betrothals aren't binding, nor does an exchange of marital consent take place at the time of the betrothal.

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

That's all very well and good and might have some temporal effect, but the spiritual/eternal situation is that he will always be Catholic, and while he can tell God he doesn't want His friendship, he'll remove the mark of his Baptism.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Again, do we care about the temporal situation or the spiritual/eternal one? The parents might have made a contract that's binding in the temporal world, but something entirely different may be happening spiritually.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

That is true. My point was merely that parents could enter a covenant on behalf of their children in secular terms. It was just the most basic one that occurred to me. The betrothal would be considered binding in temporal, legal terms. However, it is clear that the Church recognises that the parent and/or godparent has the right to speak on behalf of the child, when they are questioned during the rite of baptism with the same questions that would be asked of an adult catechumen. And older child, one who is able to understand the questions, would be asked himself/herself.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Hmm... I would think this is more a "contract" than "covenant", then...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Ran into this when I was looking up the Colson quote for another thread. France: diocese appeals order to remove name from baptismal record

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

It still doesn't unbaptise them, though.

Reminds me of a clip on the banned link. Just search 'debaptism'. If you really want to.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?