Catholic Online Forum

David;

I don't know - being called an ICRATONK doesn't sound much nicer than being called an idiot.

_________________
In the Sacred Heart of Jesus,

Judith Teresa McRae; BFA

"Without the light of Christ, the light of reason is insufficient." - Pope Benedict XVI

It all depends on the inflection.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

What is the correct usage of "farther" vs. "further"?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Probably depends on which way you're going?

mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Thank you, Cecile. I like those words much better than "ignorant."

_________________
-- Fred M

a bit of rambling...

I've also noticed that a lot of what we can or cannot say depends on the one listening.

Like-minded people who are addicted to Truth are easy to talk with because we all want to be in tune with what the Church teaches.

Whereas people who 'appear' to want to 'be right' regardless of Truth that comes to us from the Magisterium are another story...dialog seems to me to be impossible, especially on the internet since for the most part we know very little if anything about one another.

That quote about charity, which I cannot recall right now, sure helps in these situations.

...end of ramble for now.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Just recently, someone said to me, that there is no such thing as an ignorant question. I just kept my mouth shut.

Uninformed sounds softer, but we should all keep in mind that we are all ignorant. Maybe a way to side step the issue, is to refer to a questioning mind. For me asking a question is to remove some ignorance that I have.

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

The listener is a critical factor. I thought about your original question, and if you think about it, a student is one who works at removing ignorance.

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

This is true and confirms what is often said about humility being the key to seeking Truth.

Lacking the virtue of humility, wouldn't a person, in a sense, habitually be putting their ego above Truth? And possibly not even intentionally?

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Mary Thomas Aquinas was known as the Dumb Ox. He was probably one of the most intelligent people that ever lived.


http://www.stthomasu.ca/publications/tr ... quinas.htm

Seems you have described this issue very well.

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Thanks, Rohrich...I'm really pleased that you and a few others confirmed my loathing for the word, "ignorant".

Now I'm wondering if it's still used in the works of mercy..."instruct the ignorant".

I've seen many times that it's the one doing the "instructing" that really needs to be instructed, but would go ballistic if someone tried to instruct them.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Mary when I taught, I expected to learn from my students. One thing I learned to detest, was a teacher who thought they had all of the answers. My approach was to admit my ignorance. One student lead me to read about 7 books, since I could not answer a question. Learning is the cure to ignorance.

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Rohrich, I've been thinking about your highlighted sentence...and I agree.

However I've wondered off and on about the expression, "invincible ignorance' and I'd like to know if you or anyone else has any verified information concerning it.

I do know some people who fit the pattern expressed by the words; invincibly ignorant.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Dear Friends,
This phrase reminds me of the accusation:
'There are none so blind as them who will not see.'
These are the people with closed mind-sets.
We have seen them in the conflicts of Northern Ireland and divided and occupied Palestine. Not only the oppressed, but more usually the opressors.

_________________
Best regards,
Dave.

Until you can see the universe through the eyes of your enemy, you will never find peace. (Thoughts of Chairman Dave)
You might like to read The forgotten Gospel:
http://www.btinternet.com/~daveat168

Mary you may find the following article worth reading.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

A brief excerpt:

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Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

This seems to be a clerical document describing a clerical concept. It seems to judge invincible ignorance, and actions derived therefrom as inculpable, because it accepts only that invincible ignorance is not voluntary, being caused by a brain malfunction of some kind.
Invincible ignorance though has another source, which has the form of a mental blockage. There are many people, still, who cannot accept that the world is round, and orbits the Sun, which is an insignificant star in an insignificant galaxy in a nondecript corner of the universe. They are convinced that the world is the centre of the universe, and everything turns about it in Ptolomaic crystal shells.
There are also people who cannot comprehend that strange things happen to matter at huge velocities and huge pressures.
Then there are those who are convinced from the cradle that Catholics, or Jews, or Muslims, or heathens of any variety are evil, or less than human, to be killed as useless without thought.
These latter cases are all due to mental blockage, based on cradle learning.
These are the blind who will not see.
It is not so much their blindness which is invincible, but their mental blockage which is, and is clung to by these blind ones, as much in fear as in folly.
I suppose your clerics would call this ignorance vincible, but it is not readily vincible. Ask anyone who has tried. You get more sense from a brick wall. At least the echo faithfully remembers your words, the purblind perverts your words and throws them back at you.

_________________
Best regards,
Dave.

Until you can see the universe through the eyes of your enemy, you will never find peace. (Thoughts of Chairman Dave)
You might like to read The forgotten Gospel:
http://www.btinternet.com/~daveat168

Dave and Rohrich, this is the one I was looking for. 'Inculpable' pretty much says it all for me as it strengthens my resolve to never judge or criticize those people I know personally, or have met on the internet, etc., who appear to fit that description.

In a sense, they are gifts to all of us when it comes to striving for holiness.




Dave, I've seen these examples too and some of them appear to come from people who are determined to be "right' all the time, no matter how wrong they are.

The one difference I see is that the latter group quite often exhibits 'balistic' behavior whenever anyone proves them wrong in front of others.

I do not know how to love these people other than praying for them, bearing wrongs patiently, and, taking the advice of my pastor, "avoid them when at all possible unless you see that God's will is different in a particular moment".

I'm certain that they also are gifts to us...and I hope in some way that it's reciprocal.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

My mother is from SW Germany (the Black Forest - cuckoo clocks, lederhosen, angsty-mystical authors like Hermann Hesse, the whole nine yards); she claimed to find english grammar simple, at least compared to German. Advanced use of any language is a difficult task, especially one with a long literary history. And few of us make use of the enormous number of officially English words, or long clause-clotted sentences.

My own problem is that my mother was a secretary for years, and vetted all of my papers in school. Now I have to treat writing my sentences like dress-making - my last act is to turn the whole thing inside out, so that it will conform to English and not German word-order and verb-structure.

Peace, and thanks,

Kirk

Although the conversation has turned to more serious matters, 'farther' is equivalent to 'more distant' and 'further' equivalent to other sorts of excess.

So 'Most people can hit a baseball farther than Kirk, but 'Further thought is needed to keep your grammar smooth and correct.'

But here is an extract form the Oxford English Dictionary. It's interesting enough to quote. ME = Middle English; OE = Old English

"ME. 'ferther' (whence by normal phonetic development 'farther') is in origin a mere variant of 'further', due prob. to the analogy of the vb. 'ferthren' (OE 'fyrdhrian') 'to further'. The primary sense of 'further, farther' is ‘more forward, more onward’; but this sense is practically coincident with that of the comparative degree of 'far,' where the latter word refers to real or attributed motion in some particular direction. Hence 'further, farther' came to be used as the comparative of 'far;' first in the special application just mentioned, and ultimately in all senses . . . . In standard Eng. the form 'farther' is usually preferred where the word is intended to be the comparative of 'far,' while 'further' is used where the notion of far is altogether absent; there is a large intermediate class of instances in which the choice between the two forms is arbitrary."

So take my simplification only so far, and no further, or you'll end up with a barbarism just like the beginning of this sentence. It would be smoother if I'd instead written 'so far, and no farther.'

Furthermore, there is the mysterious 'fur piece up the road' my grandpa used to speak of.

Peace,

Kirk

Kirk,


Thanks for your further elaboration.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Hi Kirk,
Your last phrase reminds me of common useage in Yorkshire dialect.
I suspect it is a pronunciation varient of: 'fair piece up t(he) road'

_________________
Best regards,
Dave.

Until you can see the universe through the eyes of your enemy, you will never find peace. (Thoughts of Chairman Dave)
You might like to read The forgotten Gospel:
http://www.btinternet.com/~daveat168

I'm always confuse with those two its and its.

_________________
Panch
_____

http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/its.html

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

A simple reference is the following:


http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000213.htm

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

So would this be correct?

The Scotsman threw a farthing farther than his father.

But then he threw further farthings farther than the first.

And being exceptionally thrifty men, they both could stretch a farthing further than anybody in the county.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I bow to David's superior humor! Aren't the writers on strike?

To James, that's a good rule of thumb, but:

As the OED entry points out, there's a large intermediate category where either word can be used. A native speaker of English should just trust his ear; for the rest of us, it's a good rule of thumb that 'further' is slowly dropping out of (my region of) English, so 'farther' often sounds smoother, even when a length or distance isn't meant. So James' simple guide will keep you from *incorrect* English, but will make some passages a bit 'stiff' and formal.

However, when you're adding information, 'Further....' and 'Furthermore' are the only choices.

Kirk

CITE - a possible quote or document
SITE - postion or place

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

And "sight" - one of the five physical senses.

What a sight that web site was - I will cite it under "Strange and Unusual" in my footnotes.

The gift of sight is not to be taken for granted - get your eyes checked once a year.

They had to find a new building site for the hospital when it was discovered that the original site had been a toxic waste dump.

When writing a formal essay, remember to cite all of your sources.

_________________
In the Sacred Heart of Jesus,

Judith Teresa McRae; BFA

"Without the light of Christ, the light of reason is insufficient." - Pope Benedict XVI

A lot - large number of things
alot - not a word

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

a lot - a building site.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Allot another meaning.

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Ok...so I need to know which is correct in describing what the Saints are for the rest of us.

Are they prototypes of what we should be, or archetypes?

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Mary,

The ones who designed cathedrals are archetypes.

_________________
-- Fred M

Let's add two more words: exemplar, template, archetype, prototype

It's not common English, but *strictly speaking* saints are exemplars - that is, they are not just examples of how any man might behave but are standards for acting well. An exemplar is an individual thing, like a template.

'Templates' though just force things to be like them - there's the template from which you stamp out auto parts, for instance, and the template of a bunch of circles that i keep in my desk to force the pencil to make perfect circles; but God doesn't use saints to stamp out saintly followers in that way, or to force us into a limited number of saintly paths.

Archetypes are a kind of general 'idea', and the examples that fall under them are somehow controlled by it, involuntarily.

The examples might be other more specific ideas or individual creations. One example of an archetype is the wizardly old man. Gandalf is a good individual example; 'wizardly old man' itself is an example of the even more general archetype of 'agent of the gods who comes to save our sorry butts'.

Saints aren't 'archetypes' because they are individuals, not general ideas. It's weird to say that Saint Francis is an 'archetype' of kindness.

YOu should restrict 'archetype' to general ideas used in story-telling to help make up characters or situations. Gandalf is an example of the archetype 'wizardly, divine agent walking among men'; Odin is only an example of this archetype if you believe we make up the personalities of the gods - if we 'make' Odin a wizardly old man just like Tolkein made up Gandalf to be a wizardly old man. You're really pushing a theory if you say that Jesus is an 'example of the archetype' of god-who-dies-and-lives-again - because that suggests the idea molds Jesus, rather than Jesus being the source of the idea.


A prototype is an individual thing, like a saint is - but the prototype embodies an idea someone will use to make other things, again, in the 'forced' kind of way.

(1) So the annual Detroit Auto Show is full of prototype cars - cars that come 'first' or 'earlier' ( = Greek proton) than the production-line cars. Of course the prototype doesn't give birth to new cars like a mother bears children! Rather, it's the general plans embodied by the individual prototype that will be used. It used to be that a real, physical prototype was used to make the auto parts; its parts would be used to make the primary molds. (2) Maybe the prototype you saw at the Auto Show goes through several changes, and the engineers made a model showing off each change. They're all prototypes.

cheers,

Kirk

You could add 'standard' to the list - exemplars, templates, archetypes and prototypes are all standards. It's good English but a little vague to call saints 'standards' for us to follow. Better to say 'being charitable' (a general idea) is a standard.

Of course, if this is about common English, just call the saints 'examples' for us! The word 'example' can mean 'one just like the others' or 'a good example'.

Kirk

Kirk, very interesting.

I need to do a bit more thinking now that I have a better view of what I'm after.

I remember a Saint being referred to as a protomartyr, possibly St. Stephen. If it is St. Stephen is he the Church's only protomartyr because he was the first??

Or are there others because of a particular 'charism' they embodied?

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Mary St. Stephen has been referred as a protomartyr.

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Thanks for the confirmation, Rohrich; that tells me that there must be other "prototypes" in the Church.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Mary:

Ah, that helps. 'Protomartyr' is gotten directly from the Greek, and it's referring to Stephen as the first martyr. So there'd be no other 'protomartyrs' unless the term refers to the first 'bunch' of martyrs, and not, say, medieval or modern martyrs. (Like we only call the first disciples The Disciples, even tho' we're also disciples).

kirk

You will occasionally see a martyr [or martyrs] referred to as the protomartyr(s) of this or that country or area.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

This fits in too...if we think of them as protodiciples and us, in a sense, as their decendants, or even the fruit of their labors.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Very interesting...thanks Joe.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Moderator:

How about giving this conversation it's own thread?

All I was looking for in the beginning was an understanding of the words, archetype and prototype and then Kirk came along with some very interesting information.

Pope Benedict recently used the word, prototype, in a message; it would get lost here.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Bl. Frances de Capillas

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=3436

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Mary I started one here:
viewtopic.php?t=47696

Pope Benedict's quote is given where he was referring to the family.

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Yes, I just saw it...thanks again.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Confusing "lose" "loss" and "loose" is a big annoyance to me.

Lose is a verb. "I lose chess every time I play." or "I lost the tennis match yesterday."
Loss is a noun. "I felt a giant loss when my father died." "The Patriots have gone through the season without a single
loss"
Loose is an adjective and it is the opposite of "tight." "The bolt was loose and the chair fell apart."

Please watch these. If I have to read " (Insert candidate here) looses NH" one more time I will scream.

_________________
-Andy

"Once I said in my anguish, "I am shut out from your sight." Yet you heard my plea, when I cried out to you.
Love the LORD, all you faithful. The LORD protects the loyal, but repays the arrogant in full.
Be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the LORD."
Psalms 31

stationary - not moving
stationery - writing paper

_________________
Rohrich

"To one who has faith, no explanation is
necessary. To one without faith, no
explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas

Andy,

As a moderator, I normally fix the titles of discussions if they have any spelling or grammatical errors.

I did not "fix" the title of the discussion "The Golden Compass movie losses over $140 Million" -- because I read it as a headline, not a sentence. There is an implied "are" between "losses" and "over" and thus the spelling of "losses" is correct, because it is a noun.

_________________
-- Fred M

Fred, that example is actually the one that broke the camel's back, as it were, but there are other examples I saw here and in other places that made me angry that day. I'm sorry I lost my temper.
But I was thinking, why would they do that in a headline? Isn't the idea to make the sentence the shortest possible? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "The Golden Compass Loses Over $140 Million" rather than "The Golden Compass Losses Over $140 Million?" You save one letter and it makes more grammatical sense?

_________________
-Andy

"Once I said in my anguish, "I am shut out from your sight." Yet you heard my plea, when I cried out to you.
Love the LORD, all you faithful. The LORD protects the loyal, but repays the arrogant in full.
Be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the LORD."
Psalms 31