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 Post subject: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2013 20:08 
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On Sunday our dear PP in his homily was preaching on (among other things) Jesus' baptism by John. He indicated that this Baptism was the 'awakening' of Jesus to His mission, and stated something along the lines of "... at that stage Jesus did not know the full extent of His mission or that it would end with His death and resurrection." He went on to suggest that the 40 days in the desert were a time of reflection by Jesus as he tried to work out what this all meant.

Now we know that Jesus is fully God and fully man. Doesn't this imply that Jesus did know (with perfect knowledge) how it would all pan out?

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2013 10:39 
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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

When He was twelve years old he said, "Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”

And the Catechism (474): By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.

So it seems He always knew everything and certainly he knew when he was only twelve.

But then why this? "And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered."

If he saw everything from conception, what could he learn?

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2013 10:49 
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I think "awakening" in this context means the actual beginning of his sacred mission rather than the first He knew of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2013 12:13 
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Arwen wrote:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

When He was twelve years old he said, "Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”

And the Catechism (474): By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.

So it seems He always knew everything and certainly he knew when he was only twelve.

But then why this? "And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered."

If he saw everything from conception, what could he learn?

Thanks Grace. That is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. When I heard what Fr P said on Sunday I was quite perturbed that he could be teaching something so clearly not right. So I was looking for thoughts I could use in discussing this with him when I next see him.

The last quote you use does indeed pose a mystery .... What obedience did he need to learn?

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And we are part of "... a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Lumen Gentium article 4)


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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2013 12:19 
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bali wrote:
I think "awakening" in this context means the actual beginning of his sacred mission rather than the first He knew of it.

Bob I wish that was what Fr P had meant but it wasn't what he said! Our PP is a man of faith and prayer but he does have some wonky ideas and unfortunately veers from the CCC on occasions. My wife and I (and others) pray constantly for him but this particular homily got me thinking that I need to discuss it with him.

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And we are part of "... a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Lumen Gentium article 4)


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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2013 15:26 
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Simon,

You might find this interesting:

Quote:
3. Did Jesus Know He was God?

A belief which is occasionally challenged, even today, is that Jesus knew that He was God. Some argue that Jesus grew in the knowledge that He was God, but was not born knowing this. As can be seen from the argument above about Jesus being truly and fully God from His conception, since Jesus was truly God knowing all things, He must have been born knowing all things, including that He is God. If He were born not knowing this, then He could not be God.

The only real objection to this belief is based on the human idea that a baby is born knowing virtually nothing. How, people ask, could Jesus be a baby and yet know that He is God? The answer is that it is just as easy for God to be a baby as it is for Him to be an adult man. In each case, the infinite God takes on a limited, weak human nature at the same time that He is infinite God.

Pope Pius XII taught, in his Encyclical Mystici Corporis ("The Mystical Body" - 1943): "By means of the Beatific Vision (the sight of God in Heaven), which He enjoyed from the time when he was received into the womb of the Mother of God, He has for ever and continuously had present to Him all the members of His mystical Body, and embraced them with His saving love." (N.D. 661).




http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa3.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2013 15:39 
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Thanks James - that is excellent and spot on.

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Simon Archer
".....As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15)

And we are part of "... a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Lumen Gentium article 4)


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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2013 15:36 
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Arwen wrote:
But then why this? "And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered."

If he saw everything from conception, what could he learn?

And then there is this to consider:

Quote:
And Jesus advanced in wisdom, and age, and grace with God and men. ~ Luke 2:52

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2013 15:59 
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LASaxman wrote:
Arwen wrote:
But then why this? "And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered."

If he saw everything from conception, what could he learn?

And then there is this to consider:

Quote:
And Jesus advanced in wisdom, and age, and grace with God and men. ~ Luke 2:52

This conundrum is easy for me — the mystery of Christ being both God and man is simply beyond my puny, finite, fallible ability to comprehend!

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2013 16:03 
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David,

Then let us turn once more to Aquinas,

Quote:
The child Jesus grew in age and wisdom and favor with God and men.

1. Everything that the Lord did or suffered in the flesh is an instruction and an example for our salvation, and so we find in John: I have given you an example that as I have done, so you should do also; and because the way of salvation is not absent to each age of human life, especially that age corresponding to the years of discretion, Christ's adolescence is proposed as a model for adolescents. Now, since adolescence is characterized by development and growth, Christ's growth is therefore proposed as a model for adolescents. In order that we may be able to say something about Christ's growth that will be to the honor of God and to the salvation of our souls, let us entreat the Lord at the beginning.

The child Jesus, etc.
2. If we wish to consider these words carefully, we will discover in them four aspects of Christ's growth, namely an a growth in age with respect to the body; a growth in wisdom with respect to understanding; a growth in grace with respect to God; and a growth in favor with respect to his fellowship with men.

3. Indeed, all these [different] growths are wondrous, or rather they are filled with astonishment and wonder; indeed it is wondrous that eternity grows by way of time, since the Son of God is eternity and from eternity: For ever, 0 Lord, your word endures.

4. Again, it is wondrous that truth grows by way of wisdom, since growth in wisdom is knowledge of the truth, and Christ truth itself, as we read in John: I am the way, the truth and the life.

5. Again, it is wondrous that the maker of grace grows in grace; indeed Christ is the creator of grace, as [it says] in John: Grace and truth were made through Christ.

6. Again, it is wondrous that he who surpassed all men grows in their presence deserves to be admired; men ought rather to grow in his presence. As the Psalmist says: He is high above all nations. How then will Christ grow in all these ways?

7. I say that if we rightly want to consider his growth in age, one reason comes immediately to mind. The eternal Son of God wished to enter into time so that he would be able to grow according to the ages of human life. [As it says in] Isaiah: A child is born to us. If he was born as a child, why then would he not grow up as a child?

8. The other growths of Christ present a greater difficulty. Christ assumed a complete human nature; he was born a child according to the flesh, but not according to the soul, because from the moment of his conception his most blessed soul, having been united to God, was filled with every grace and truth; as we find in John: We saw his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. He was filled with grace and truth because he was the only begotten of God; but from the moment of conception he was the only begotten; therefore, at that moment he was filled with grace and truth and he was made perfect in virtue. We read in Jeremiah: A woman shall compass a man. This occurred through perfection of mind rather than of age, but how is he said to grow by wisdom and grace?

9. It must be asserted that someone is said to grow in wisdom not only when he acquires greater wisdom but more so when wisdom is revealed within him. It is true that Christ was filled with wisdom and grace from the first moment of his conception,` but he did not reveal it from the beginning, but when others were accustomed to doing so. At that time he is said to have grown in wisdom," not in himself, but with respect to outward results by which he was growing in other areas. If he had wished to show his wisdom when he was seven years old, men could have doubted the reality of his assumed human nature, and for this reason Christ wished to be conformed to other men. Therefore, the Apostle to the Philippians says: He emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. Christ made himself little by taking on our littleness; and in order that he might truly show himself to be little he was made in the likeness of men. The Apostle says: He was seen on earth and conversed with men, and Christ first revealed his wisdom at that age when wise judgement usually first appears in a person, namely, when he was twelve years old. Therefore, he wished to reveal his wisdom little by little, not [all at once], so that the truth of his human nature within him would be accepted, and so that he might give us an example of growing in wisdom.

10. Therefore, as we have already mentioned, the growth of Christ was fourfold, namely years, wisdom, grace, and in human fellowship.

11. Let us first describe Christ's growth in age, which is bodily, and which is proposed to us as a model in order that we may grow in age of body and mind like him, because a growth in bodily age is worthless if the soul does not keep pace with it; hence Christ's growth in wisdom and grace kept pace with his growth in age. For if a man fails to advance in mind at equal pace with his physical age four incongruities result from it, because this is monstrous, wasteful, burdensome or laborious, and dangerous.

12. Let me begin by saying that growing in age of body but not growing in maturity of mind is monstrous. Man is composed of a soul and a body just as a body is composed of various limbs, but let us suppose that, some body grows in one limb and its growth remains stunted in its other limbs: this is monstrous. The same is true when anyone has the body but not the mind of an adult. For this reason the Apostle says: When I was a child, I understood as a child, I spoke as a child, but when I became a man I put away those things of a child. Children think about play and of other such things. It is true that the Lord commands that we be as little children, saying in Matthew: Unless you be converted and become as little children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Some childlike qualities we ought to retain, because children are not malicious, but are humble. But other childlike qualities we ought to cast off, because children are lacking in wisdom; hence the Apostle says: Do not become children in understanding. But in malice be children and in understanding be perfect. We ought to bear in mind that inasmuch as we are growing in physical age we should be growing in mind as well. Suppose that someone were to experience growth in one foot and not in the other, he would make every effort to see a doctor so that his other foot would grow in the same manner. In the same way, you who are growing older should make every effort to see that your mind develops too.

13. Furthermore, growing in bodily age but not in maturity of mind is wasteful. Suppose someone had the time to acquire a great object and he allowed it to slip away in vain, he would consider this a great waste. In the same way should either the merchant who believes that he is profiting much at trading time or the student who believes that he is listening to a useful lecture lose that time, he considers himself to have lost much. Time is not given to you for acquiring such paltry things, but for God and the heavenly blessings which no one can take away; hence the Apostle says: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,. neither has it entered into the heart of man what things God has prepared for them that love him. For this reason it is said: Let not the part of a good time pass you by; and Solomon says: Give not your honor to strangers, nor your years to the cruel, lest strangers be filled with your strength, and your labors be in another's house. Give not your honor to strangers: honor is granted to man for defeating his enemies in war; such honor is granted to you who overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil. But when you offer your natural abilities to serve the devil, which were given to you to defeat the devil, then you are giving your honor away to a stranger. Next follows: Give not the years of your youth to the cruel," that is, to the devil who is cruel, because, inasmuch as it is necessary that you serve him, he will not give you rest; therefore Jeremiah says: You shall serve strange gods, who will not give you any rest. And your labors will be in another's house. Perhaps you are performing good works and have labored on their account; if you are devoted to the Lord, then your labors will be in your house. However, if you are not devoted to the Lord, then your labors will be in a stranger's house because the saints in heaven will be rejoicing over your good works and not you. Therefore, it is said in Revelation: Take hold of that which you have, lest another take your crown.

14. Moreover, growing in bodily age but not in maturity of mind is laborious. But you will say: "I am young; I want to play while I am young; when I grow old I will devote myself to the Lord". To be sure, you are committing yourself to great labor: that which a man has grown accustomed to doing from his youth is easy for him; this is evident because laboring in a field is easy for a farmer, since he has grown accustomed to it, but for you it is difficult. If you grow accustomed to having your own way and to living in your sins, either you lose hope of attaining eternal life or you store up for yourself much labor; therefore Solomon says: A young man will walk according to his way: even when he is old he will not depart from it. And Jeremiah says: It is good for a man, when he has borne the yoke of the Lord from his youth, because such a man can easily overcome difficulties, and therefore Christ has given us an example of doing good from youth, because when he was twelve years old he grew in wisdom.

15. Again, it is dangerous when anyone grows in bodily age but not in maturity of mind. God will require an accounting from everyone; thus we read in the Gospel: The kingdom of heaven is like a man settling an account with his servants. God has given you time so that you may serve Him, but it is said in Job: He has given him time and he has abused it in pride. God will require from you an accounting of your time. Isaiah [says]: And I said.. I have spent my strength without cause and in vain. He uses up his strength uselessly and without good reason who spends his time on worthless things; and therefore this follows in Isaiah: Therefore my judgement is with the Lord, and Solomon says: Rejoice therefore, 0 young man, in your youth, and know that for all these God will bring you into judgement. Will that be an easy judgement? No, because as Isaiah says: The child being one hundred years old will be accursed, that is, a sinner. Whence it says in Baruch: You have grown old in a foreign country; you are counted with them that go down to hell. But refuse to despair of God's mercy even though your deserts warrant this.

16. This then is our first concern, that we should mature in mind just as in age. But how does man mature in mind? Surely when he matures in wisdom and grace, and, although Thessalonians mentions wisdom before grace, we will nevertheless discuss grace first, since the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.



http://dhspriory.org/thomas/SermPuerIesus.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2013 23:55 
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retsinab wrote:
This conundrum is easy for me — the mystery of Christ being both God and man is simply beyond my puny, finite, fallible ability to comprehend!

Well, yes. :) Actually, yesterday I considered suggesting to Simon that he read Benson's Paradoxes of Catholicism, but then I thought maybe that wouldn't be too helpful. But, you know, maybe it is the best help after all. :wink:

Quote:
II. (i) The Catholic teaching alone, of course, offers a key to these questions; yet it is a key that is itself, like all keys, as complicated as the wards which it alone can unlock. Heretic after heretic has sought for simplification, and heretic after heretic has therefore come to confusion. Christ is God, cried the Docetic; therefore cut out from the Gospels all that speaks of the reality of His Manhood! God cannot bleed and suffer and die; God cannot weary; God cannot feel the sorrows of man. Christ is Man, cries the modern critic; therefore tear out from the Gospels His Virgin Birth and His Resurrection! For none but a Catholic can receive the Gospels as they were written; none but a man who believes that Christ is both God and Man, who is content to believe that and to bow before the Paradox of paradoxes that we call the Incarnation, to accept the blinding mystery that Infinite and Finite Natures were united in one Person, that the Eternal expresses Himself in Time, and that the Uncreated Creator united to Himself Creation -- none but a Catholic, in a word, can meet, without exception, the mysterious phenomena of Christ's Life.

(ii) Turn now again to the mysteries of our own limited life and, as in a far-off phantom parallel, we begin to understand.

For we too, in our measure, have a double nature. As God and Man make one Christ, so soul and body make one man: and, as the two natures of Christ -- as His Perfect Godhead united to His Perfect Manhood --lie at the heart of the problems which His Life presents, so too our affinities with the clay from which our bodies came, and with the Father of Spirits Who inbreathed into us living souls, explain the contradictions of our own experience.

From Paradoxes of Catholicism / by Robert Hugh Benson: JESUS CHRIST, GOD AND MAN.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 19 Feb 2013 23:59 
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James,
Would you be able to find what Aquinas wrote about "And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered," without too much trouble?

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As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla


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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2013 15:42 
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Grace,

No problem at all. I happen to know it's in his discussion of the Letter to the Hebrews.

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/SSHebrews.htm#52

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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2013 20:18 
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Thanks again James .... the logic in Aquinas' discourse is helpful with addressing the apparent conundrum of Christ's 'growth'.

And thanks too Grace - good to have some wry humour applied!

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And we are part of "... a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Lumen Gentium article 4)


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 Post subject: Re: Did Jesus know ....?
PostPosted: 20 Feb 2013 23:17 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Grace,

No problem at all. I happen to know it's in his discussion of the Letter to the Hebrews.

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/SSHebrews.htm#52

James,
Thank you! Some things I can find, and some things I can't. :)

Simon and All,
This part is relevant to Simon's original question and then to mine:

Quote:
259. – He says, therefore: I have stated that a high priest should be such as to be able to have compassion. But Christ is such a high priest. For since He is the Son of God from all eternity, and, therefore, could not suffer or have compassion, He assumed a nature in which He would suffer and even have compassion. And this is what He says, namely, although he was a Son from all eternity, He learned obedience from time. But only the ignorant can learn; whereas Christ, being God from all eternity, had fullness of knowledge from the very instant of His conception as man. Therefore, He was not ignorant of anything; consequently, He could not learn. I answer that knowledge is of two sorts: the first is that of simple recognition, according to which the objection is valid, because He was not ignorant of anything. But there is also the knowledge gained by experience, according to which He learned obedience; hence, he says, He learned obedience through what he suffered, i.e., experienced. And the Apostle speaks thus, because one who learns something comes voluntarily to learn it. But Christ accepted our weakness voluntarily; consequently, he says that ‘he learned obedience’, i.e., how difficult it is to obey, because He obeyed in the most difficult matters, even to the death of the cross (Phil. 2:8). This shows how difficult the good of obedience is, because those who have not experienced obedience and have not learned it in difficult matters, believe that obedience is very easy. But in order to know what obedience is, one must learn to obey in difficult matters, and one who has not learned to subject himself by obeying does not know how to rule others well. Therefore, although Christ knew by simple recognition what obedience is, He nevertheless learned obedience from the things He suffered, i.e., from difficult things, by suffering and dying: ‘By the obedience of one many shall be made just’ (Rom. 5:19).

260. – Then when he says, and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, he mentions the fruit of His Passion, namely, in Christ and in His members. In Christ the fruit was glorification; hence, he says, and being made perfect, for from the instant of His conception He was perfectly consummated as to the happiness of His soul, inasmuch as it was drawn to God; but he still had a nature that could suffer, although after His Passion He could not suffer. Therefore, because in this respect He was altogether perfect, He could perfect others. For it is the nature of a perfect thing to be able to engender its like. Therefore, he says that He was perfect. For since He arrived at that consummation by the merit of obedience: ‘The obedient man shall speak of victory’ (Pr. 21:28), he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, not temporal salvation but eternal: ‘Israel is saved by the Lord with an eternal salvation (Is. 45:17).

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