Catholic Online Forum

Many cities around the state of Florida have gone to "Red Light Cameras" to record motorists running through a Red light. Expressed intention...cut down on side collision accidents, early results successful. Secondary intent increase revenue through fines...early results somewhat successful.

Unintended results a 44% increase in rear end collisions in Saint Petersburg.

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Bob C

I've driven in the Cape Canaveral/Cocoa Beach and Clearwater/St. Pete areas a lot and I'm surprised there aren't record numbers of accidents! The hodge-podge of elderly drivers from all over the North each with their own rules of the road creates near chaos. The rear-end accident increase does seem to universal, we have the same problem here; non-attentive drivers.

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BobA

The City of Los Angeles recently abandoned its Red Light Camera program. I'm not sure what the reasons were.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

They've pretty much stopped using them in NC. People kept filing lawsuits to challenge the pictures, and the cost of those cameras became significantly higher than they were bringing in.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Keep adding more in the Denver area, must be profitable. Some drivers are so shy about the cameras that they stop too far behind the line and don't get their turn signal, aggravating to be behind them.

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BobA

David L,

The city stopped but whatever entity that controls the traffic lights at the metro lines (county? I know it's the sheriff's that patrol, not LAPD) have not. I got a red light ticket for precisely the reason Bob mentioned...I would have had to slam on my brakes to avoid going through the light and someone was on my tail. The camera showed I was going exactly the speed limit and the light turned yellow and then it seemed like it was immediately red. I read up on it and that camera is the oldest one used and they discontinued it quite a while back because of timing problems or accuracy problems...forget which. Another time, at the same light, it turned yellow when I was just at the cross walk and I came to a screeching halt. A whole bunch of people at the light all turned an looked at me like I was crazy but I wasn't going to get another ticket I considered unfair.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Bob C,

Here in Sydney a quick Google search will give you a dozen sites with a full map of the location of every red light camera in the Sydney metrop area. Even the web site of the government department responsible has a full listing that can be downloaded in PDF format. That being so, I'm not sure I see the point.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

What do you not see the point of? The Red Light Cameras, or the identifying of all the sites?

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Bob C

Bob,

If you're going to tell people where they are, what's the point?

We don't tell people "Next Saturdasy night there will be a random breath testing unit a hundred metres down the road from the Such-and-such pub". People who've been drinking to excess would simply make a detour around the RBT unit's location.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The courts here have mandated that there be some form of public notice when the local police intend to do a sobriety check point, and their location.

Usually the location is on an approach to a bridge where turning around will get you chased and tested anyway. I almost never drink while out, and the most I ever have is a single beer with dinner, so those stops don't bother me.

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Bob C

In the Denver area they announce they will be conducting DUI checkpoint stops but they don't announce the locations. I don't drink at all, did my share when I was young, but I have never been stopped; I'm rarely out late at night when the stops are most prevalent.

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BobA

Speed traps, too.

I just spent some time in NJ over the past week. One of the stories in the news is the continuing saga of the red light cameras and court challenges. There are specific requirements as to calibration, record-keeping, etc... The locations would have to be a matter of public record.

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Rob

Here in California there is a legal requirement that a sign be posted certain distance from the intersection indicating the presence of the red-light camera. If the sign is not posted it is grounds to get the ticket dismissed.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Rob,



Experience here has shown them to be problematic - they've been known to clock stationary objects as travelling at very high speeds. There's been some debate about whether it's the fault of the equipment or the people operating it.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

David,



Which seems to me to be pointless.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Well, they still catch a lot of people. Illiterates perhaps?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

Complete morons would be more accurate.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Well, I got caught once,

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

Okay, why - when you saw the warning sign as you approached - did you not simply make a detour around that particular intersection?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The signs are not that far from the intersection. In order to make a detour you would have to make a (probably illegal) U-turn.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Well, the Greeks and Cypriots took great exception to these cameras so the Greeks burned theirs up and the Cypriots smashed theirs up.
The unintended consequence was that the photos caught girlfriends or boyfriends in cars with married people, and caused all sorts of problems.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Different type cameras, those are surveillance, the red light cameras are triggered as a snap shot when someone blows through the intersection on a red light.

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Bob C

Don't the Red Light cameras photograph the driver? The images I've seen on the local news clearly show the driver and anyone in the passenger seat.

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BobA

In our community the interest in revenue for the ticketing by camera was so high, the lights suddenly began to have VERY short yellow lights causing an increase of all sorts of collisions. Our community voted the blasted things back out.

It was horrible, if the light went yellow, it often went red almost instantly. Totally violated the statistical rules on how long the yellow needs to be to minimize accidents.

Then there was the constant tinkering with the light lengths, and one day I was almost t-boned as I went through MY green light. The woman was swearing at me, almost hadn't managed to stop, and she ALSO had a green light, so the timing had been so far off that a very busy intersection was having serious errors. I called 911 and had a FIT about the light being green both ways. It was fixed.

I'm totally against the cameras because there will always be the temptation for the city to change the lights to make for more tickets.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

K. Ann,



That's exactly what happened to me.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

James,



My understanding of the purpose of the signs is that people will therefore be less inclined to drive improperly knowing they may get a ticket up ahead. The cameras are in plain sight.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

David,



If the warning sign is posted in such a manner that by the time you see it you haven't time to respond, then it can hardly be said to be a warning in any proper sense of the word.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Val,

Well, from this thread it would seem there are at least three possibilities here. The purpose of the red light cameras is so that

i) the relevant local authorities are able to detect and punish offenders;
ii) knowing they are about, people will drive in a safer manner;
iii) to raise revenue.

My objections

i) If you know they're there, you won't offend (unless you're a moron).
ii) Ditto.
iii) If you're local authority is so strapped for cash that this is the best they can think of to raise revenue, red light cameras are probably the least of your immediate worries.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Oops,

iii) If your local authority...

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

It gives you enough time to decide not to try to make it through on the yellow.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Number ii is extremely relevant and a worthy cause, and your objection to it is actually the desired result. Should the purpose of law be to "catch" people, or to guide them into behaviors that are better for everyone?

The intent in a town local to me was to prevent car crashes. I mean serious, catastrophic, fatal car crashes occurring when people were driving 50-70 miles/hour in the middle of a highly urban area during high-traffic times of day, more than once or twice a year. So the cameras were put up in the intersections with the worst accidents, and it was all very public and clear what was happening, and people either did their joyriding elsewhere or they slowed down, at least at the intersections.

And insofar as there haven't been any such crashes in the several years since the cameras went up, those cameras did their job even though they're not there any more.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Rose,

I mean that if people are forewarned of the presence of the camera, they will drive properly as they approach it and then return to their usual bad habits once they have passed through the intersection.

Now, if the location of the cameras were kept secret...

I'm simply suggesting that the cameras should be deployed in the same manner as RBT units - random locations, frequently moved. If people know they could be caught anywhere and at anytime, they will probably drive as they ought - responsibly, soberly and carefully.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Too difficult to calibrate the Red Light cameras if portable; the proximity of the auto to the stop line must be recorded with a fair degree of precision in order for the citation to hold up in court. The cameras and flash assemblies are usually mounted several feet off the ground and across the intersection from the stop line in question to get the best view. We do have mobile speed cameras because they require no exotic site calibration. My GPS actually warns me about a block ahead if there is a camera intersection coming up.

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BobA

That may be.

My point is that the desired result, safer intersections and fewer speed-related fatalities, was achieved as the law stood. It would seem that the extent you would go to is unnecessary.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

I agree, the intent of driving laws and the legitimate authority to regulate driving is premised upon public safety -promoting the common good -protecting lives.

There is and should be a limit as to how invasive government can become in its zeal to protect us from harm.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Laws are only effective for those who choose to obey them. I have noticed over the past decade a tremendous increase in red-light and stop sign runners, speeders and general neglect of the most basic rules of the road such as using turn signals and right-of-way. An increasingly large population have realized there is only a slim chance of getting caught for a traffic violation and have joined the population that only obeys laws if there is a threat of getting caught. Expect an increase in unmanned traffic-control devices, the chance to earn added revenue is too great and the increasing supply of violators too inviting.

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BobA