Catholic Online Forum

The first interactive Catholic Forum on the web
It is currently 26 May 2013 00:48

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2012 16:17 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14711
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
Six more countries have been added to the list of nations that have eliminated "the scourge of landmines".

Congo, Denmark, Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, Jordan and Uganda have declared all mined areas in their territories cleared of the deadly weapons.

The news was announced at a five-day meeting in Geneva, aimed at evaluating progress since the signing of the 1997 Ottawa Convention.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-08/s ... st/4416536

Quote:
Following the new additions, 36 signatory countries to the Mine Ban Treaty are still in the process of clearing mines, organisers said.

"Fifteen years after the opening of the Mine Ban treaty, we still see a high level of commitment ... aimed at ending for all time the scourge of landmines," said Stephen Goose, the chair of the International Campaign to Ban Landmines (ICBL), which oversees the implementation of the 1997 treaty.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pa ... awa_Treaty

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2012 18:32 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2002 16:21
Posts: 15613
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Landmines don't kill people, people kill people.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2012 18:54 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8571
Location: Northern VA, USA
LASaxman wrote:
Landmines don't kill people, people kill people.

Unfortunately land mines allow people to kill people even after the killER is dead.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2012 15:43 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14711
Location: Sydney, Australia
David,

Landmines kill indiscriminately. Landmines kill civilians, including women and children. Hence the Ottawa Treaty.

Quote:
The Ottawa Treaty or the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Convention, officially known as the Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction, aims at eliminating anti-personnel landmines (AP-mines) around the world. To date, there are 160 States Parties to the treaty.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_treaty

Quote:
Besides ceasing the production and development of anti-personnel mines, a party to the treaty must destroy its stockpile of anti-personnel mines within four years, although it may retain a small number for training purposes (mine-clearance, detection, etc.). Within ten years after ratifying the treaty, the country should have cleared all of its mined areas. This is a difficult task for many countries, but at the annual meetings (see below) they may request an extension and assistance. The treaty also calls on States Parties to provide assistance to mine-affected persons in their own country and to provide assistance to other countries in meeting their Mine Ban Treaty obligations.[2][3]

The treaty covers only anti-personnel mines. It does not address mixed mines, anti-tank mines, remote controlled claymore mines, anti-handling devices (booby-traps) and other "static" explosive devices.


The list of non-signatory states (see link in opening post) makes for interesting reading.

That there are now a further six countries cleared of landmines is welcome news.

Quote:
4 April 2012.

Pope Benedict XVI has launched an appeal for the UN-sponsored International Day for Mine Awareness and Assistance in Mine Action. Speaking during his General Audience he said “Today marks the International Day to raise awareness about the problem of landmines – to the victims of which I express my closeness, as also I am close to their families. I encourage everyone to be committed to freeing humanity from these terrible and devious weapons, which, as Blessed John Paul II said to mark the entry into force of the Convention for their elimination, keep people from, “Walk[ing] together on paths of life without fearing the dangers of destruction and death. (Angelus of February 28th, 1999)”.



http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-no-more-landmines

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2012 21:44 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6598
Location: Singapore
Good read here on the Ottawa Treaty:

The Ottawa Mine Ban Convention: Unacceptable on Substance and Process

    Key Points

    1 The Obama Administration is conducting a review of U.S. landmine policy, with a view of deciding whether the U.S. should sign the Ottawa Convention, which prohibits the use of all anti-personnel landmines.

    2 Current U.S. policy strikes an appropriate balance between maintaining the essential capabilities of anti-personnel landmines and the humanitarian concerns raised by “persistent” landmines, which the U.S. has pledged to stop using.

    3 The process that created the Ottawa Convention was avowedly intended to undermine the authority of sovereign democratic states in favor of unaccountable NGOs.

    4 If the U.S. ratified the Ottawa Convention, it would accede to the convention’s onerous obligations and endorse the destructive process that created it.

    5 The U.S. should not accede to the convention or change its policy on anti-personnel landmines.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2012 11:23 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6598
Location: Singapore
The link I posted is worth reading in terms of exposing what the Ottawa Treaty/Convention actually is. The article from the Heritage Foundation is a long document, but educational in the reality of the dangerous agenda many misled and naive NGOs in cahoots with their socialist comrades are trying to forward. In a nutshell, a damning indictment of the Treaty from the piece is this:

Quote:
“The End of History.” In the broader picture, the Ottawa Convention is a child of the liberal belief in the “end of history” that prevailed in the 1990s. After the end of the Cold War and before 9/11, there was a widespread if profoundly mistaken view that arms control—and indeed diplomacy, security, and the entire international state system—needed to be and could be transformed. This mindset produced the concept of “human security”; institutions that are based on the rejection of state sovereignty, such as the International Criminal Court; and the belief that arms control is fundamentally about fulfilling human rights.[75] Many states were basically uninterested in these beliefs, but in each case a few were willing to go along, in part so they could claim the credit of being out in front on the advance into this brave new world.

In the 1990s, more and more institutions and treaties were created on a narrow base of states. Yet even judged by the low bar set by comparably broad and contemporaneous treaties, the Ottawa Convention required very few ratifications. The Kyoto Protocol (1997) required 55 ratifications. The Ottawa Convention (1997) entered into force after only 40 ratifications, only one-fifth of the world’s states. The Rome Statute (1998) that created the ICC required 60 ratifications. Each time, advocates claimed that the new institution or treaty constituted a step forward for the world, a new source of moral suasion, and a new source of customary international law that would ultimately bind even non-signatories—a profoundly political argument that is based on their contempt for sovereign, democratic states.

The reality is that when these institutions came into being, they represented only a minority of the world. While many states signed later, many fewer altered their behavior or believed that the treaties they were signing would ever apply to them. The Ottawa Convention illustrates the decay, not the growth, of international institutions because the new institutions are not created by serious, verifiable, treaty commitments among responsible democratic nation-states. This decay derives ultimately from the transnational attack on sovereignty, the refusal of transnational activists to accept that signing a treaty is not the same as solving a problem, and their desire to use the treaty process to circumvent domestic political processes to achieve their political objectives.


Quote:
Lack of Enforcement. It therefore comes as no surprise that the convention does not take enforcement seriously. Instead of recognizing the wisdom of President Ronald Reagan’s dictum of “trust, but verify,” the convention relies on trust—though, given the number of states party to it, verification is effectively impossible no matter what the convention requires. In practice, the convention imposes two requirements related to enforcement. The first requirement, the “Transparency Measures” under Article 7, relies entirely on the signatories honestly self-reporting their stockpiles of APLs, their implementation measures, and other information. The second requirement, “Facilitation and Clarification of Compliance” under Article 8, defines a complicated process for calling special meetings and creating fact-finding missions, through the U.N. Secretary-General, to investigate alleged violations.

Such processes place considerable power in the hands of the U.N., which has little incentive to take violations seriously. If it did, it might be called on to condemn a member state, which would start a crisis that could ultimately lead to sanctions or even an armed conflict. The U.N.’s reluctance to seriously confront Iran’s covert nuclear program implies that, when dealing with the much less pressing subject of APLs, the compliance process of the Ottawa Convention will never produce results in cases in which a signatory does not comply freely. The convention will weigh heavily on the United States if the U.S. ratifies it, but will have virtually no effect on less responsible states.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2012 15:21 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14711
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
A landmine left over from decades of conflict in Afghanistan has killed 10 girls as they collected firewood in the east of the country.

Officials say the girls, aged between nine and 11, were collecting wood in remote Chaparhar district, near the border with Pakistan, which is infested with some of the world's most dangerous militant groups.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-17/b ... od/4432636




From Pope Benedict XVI

Quote:
Ten years after the Convention banning these weapons came into force and after the recent opening of the protocol for the signing of the Convention prohibiting cluster bombs, I wish to encourage the countries who have not yet done so to sign without delay these important instruments of international humanitarian law, to which the Holy See has always given its support.


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... ay_en.html

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012 08:14 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6598
Location: Singapore
James,

The landmines in Afghanistan that killed the two girls are persistent landmines. They are alive perpetually and don't self-destruct within any time limit. As the report suggests, they are remnants of the Afghan-Soviet war and are now mostly in the hands of terrorist militant groups. These are the type of landmines that should be banned, and many responsible states who are not signatories to the Ottawa Treaty are phasing them out or have done so.

The anti-personnel landmines (APLs) that are used by many modern armies today are non-persistent and self-destruct within 120 days. And APLs are not the most destructive of weapons that maim or kill non-combatants, but integral in a military unit's defence, as the article in the link I posted above has shown.

Which makes the Ottawa Treaty a joke. It does not ban improvised explosive devices—an alternative version of APLs—or the more devastating anti-vehicle landmines, which maim and kill at far greater degree than APLs.

But a point of greater significance that makes the Ottawa Treaty a farce is the declaration made by several countries like Australia, Britain and Canada on the articles contained in it before becoming signatories:

“It is the understanding of Australia (insert UK and Canada as well) that, in the context of operations, exercises or other military activity authorised by the United Nations or otherwise conducted in accordance with international law, the participation by the Australian Defence Force, or individual Australian citizens or residents, in such operations, exercises or other military activity conducted in combination with the armed forces of States not party to the Convention which engage in activity prohibited under the Convention would not, by itself, be considered to be in violation of the Convention.”

Australia went even further to declare much more where its military and citizens can benefit from the use of APLs from non-signatory states without running foul of the Treaty, and you can read them here: Ottawa Treaty

If Australia, Canada and the UK were truthful in their commitment to the Ottawa Treaty, they would not have included the declarations before their signatures. But why did they? The answer is obvious: UK and Canada are part of Nato, and Australia has a long-running defence pact with the United States, which has not signed the Treaty with good reason.

In any war where these countries are allied with the US or other non-Treaty states, they wanted to make sure they could operate without hindrance and this includes the benefits that APLs would bring them. Paint it however you want, it is insidious and hypocritical, especially when they pontificate over non-Treaty nations.

In reality, the Ottawa Treaty is a lot of hogwash, with self-righteous chest-thumping and back-slapping by signatories eager to boast they are leaders of the human rights cause. But there is no real policing to monitor that member countries live up to what the Treaty calls for. Nations that have signed and ratified it only need to declare they have emptied their arsenals of APLs and that's that. Already parties to the Treaty—Angola, Burundi, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Sudan, and Uganda—have used APLs with impunity after signing it.

Treaties are formulated and conducted between states, and not NGOs. Other non-Ottawa members like the US, Israel and Singapore (through Asean) are parties or entering the Convention for Certain Conventional Weapons, which is the right forum to eradicate the use of persistent APLs and other similar type weapons.

The Holy Father's exhortation that you provided must be seen in its proper context, in the larger picture of the Church's teachings on just war, the indiscriminate killing of non-combatants and the right of every country to defend itself against unjust aggressors. In this light it makes sense.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012 15:21 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14711
Location: Sydney, Australia
Ian,

Quote:
The Holy Father's exhortation that you provided must be seen in its proper context.


The context is that the Holy Father was urging those countries that had not yet done so to sign the treaty.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012 20:42 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6598
Location: Singapore
James,

You will note the Holy Father said this at the Angelus three years ago, and it is only an encouragement to non-Treaty members to sign, he does not have the power to bind them.

That said, I doubt the Holy Father or any of the Holy See's dicasteries have become experts in the defence capabilities and weaknesses of every nation that they are able to dictate which agreements countries should sign. They aren't and cannot expect to be and I doubt Pope Benedict XVI and his bishops or their successors will write a new Pastoral Constitution towards this.

Everything that has been pastorally given on just war and a country's right to self-defence, the pursuit of international peace and forging agreements are amply contained in Gaudium et Spes. A government's first duty is the security of its people, and in a conflict with an aggressor "The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good (CCC 2309)".

As I have posted above, many of the non-Ottawa Treaty members are working through the CCW, which has legitimacy between states and far more realistic weight to eradicate arms like the persistent APLS. The Ottawa Treaty can never hope to achieve this as it is conducted under so much guile and dishonesty among the signatories.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 11:41 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 05:16
Posts: 15743
Location: Southern California, Catholic
I recall that the Vatican was urging Poland and others to join the European Union a few years back. That treaty is now being used to try to force Poland to legalize abortion.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 16:08 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14711
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
In 2012, 13 children died in Colombia and 52 others were injured as a result of landmines.


http://www.news.va/en/news/americacolom ... re-at-risk

Quote:
The Latin American country is the second largest in the world, after Afghanistan, for landmines which were scattered in 31 of the 32 civilian departments of Colombia.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group