Catholic Online Forum

I thought that it was a bit amusing that I got an invite from a good atheist friend to his annual Christmas Party.
But the invite to our annual work Christmas Party (our staff is quite mixed in terms of religious affiliation, or lack thereof) came under the guise of a "Seasonal Celebration".

Today's reminder for the annual work event had a change of title. It's now a Christmas Party.

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Squirt,

Yes, as though there is just an arbitrary "seasonal celebration" that isn't tied to anything. "Hey, let's celebrate winter for no reason" A family I regard as my "second family" have always celebrated Christmas and Easter and people who I know are atheists will wish me a Happy Easter or Merry Christmas. One person in that family, my best friend, refuses to come to the Easter celebration, "nobody believes in Jesus, why are we doing this" but the hostess of the party always makes the claim that they are really just secular holidays at this point. Which is certainly true for many I know who celebrate Christmas and have Santa for their kids but no religious mention. I even know Jews who celebrate Christmas or will have a Christmas tree in their home.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Hi Val,

On a similar note, I will wish Muslim friends 'Happy Eid" or "Eid Mubarak" when they are celebrating.
Even though I don't celebrate those holidays personally, I gladly share in the wonderful sweets that are brought around on such feast days.

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Squirt,

Good point, I do wish Jews whatever it is that you say around the High Holy Days which I have to learn anew every year. Something like Shana Tova for the new year? I've got to get a brain transplant one of these days.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Or maybe a Chanukah Bush.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Val,



Yes.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66233



In Evelyn Waugh's Love Among the Ruins there are Father Christmas Day celebrations, the highlight of which is a pageant on tv about a man, a woman and a baby and some shepherds. Nobody understands it and nobody knows its origins; but it's an ancient English tradition which is continued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Among ... ear_Future

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Shouldn't we dislike hearing non-Christians say "Merry Christmas"? Exactly what are they saying? "Have a wonderful Christ Mass! Of course, I don't believe it's real, but hey you go for it, girl!" "I think it's silly, but hey - to each his own!"

Really?

Why would a truly Jewish person appreciate a "Happy Hanukkah" from me?

Or a real Muslim appreciate a Happy Ramadan from me?

I don't wish them any such thing. What I really wish - and pray - is that they come to know the Truth.

Shouldn't we be more honest about something so incredibly important?

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Sorry Barb, I suspect your earlier Marxist indoctrination is showing. If religious feasts are important to our seperated bretheren, I cannot see the problem with recognising this fact. Likkewise, if they return the compliment to us Christians.

Just my two penneyworth, that life and experience has taught me.

Laus Deo Semper,

Peter

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"Lord to whom shall I go? Thou hast the words of eternal life"

Hi Peter,

Not sure what my previous "Marxist indoctrination" has to do with my current opinion, but you are of course completely free to disagree with me. And I will attribute your different opinion to nothing more than your having arrived at a different conclusion than I did after giving it the same serious thought and prayer that I gave it!

God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Hi Barb,



If a friend who is not Christian wishes me a Merry Christmas they are acknowledging an important part of my life. Not only do I NOT dislike it, I appreciate that they took the time to remember something that is of such importance to me.

Far more troubling to me than a genuine sentiment made by a non-Christian, is being wished a Merry Christmas by Christians who have divorced Jesus from their lives.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

And we thought "relativism" was the heresy. Actually it's "non-relativism" but it produces the same result.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Barb,

So the heads of the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews and of the Commission for Religious Relations with Muslims &c ought not to send their greetings at the time of the appropriate feasts? Will you tell them or shall I?

To wish a Jew a happy Chanukah is simply a matter of courtesy. (I'm not sure wishing anyone a "Happy Ramadan" is a good idea; a bit like "Happy Good Friday".) Happy Chanukah might be a little odd coming from a Protestant, but a see no problem in a Catholic saying it.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Hi Effie,

You wrote:

I find that as I grow older, many of the things I once took such a hard stand on, I no longer do. And some things I never gave a second thought to, now seem to hold an importance I didn't see before. For example, in past years, when we first started noticing that department stores stopped saying "Merry Christmas" and replaced it with the generic "Happy Holidays", I joined the chorus of those who protested, who were rather adamant that such a change was wrong. It's not, we argued, a "generic" season; it's Christmas. I felt quite strongly about that, as I know many on this forum did as well.

This year, I find that after some thought and pondering, I have decided that I believe it's actually right that department store folks and most others, especially non-believers, say "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas." For the vast majority of them, they really don't mean "Merry Christmas" at all. What they mean is what your friends mean in your statement above: what they really mean is that they hope we have a merry time celebrating what it is that's important to us. And they probably mean that whether it be Hanakkah or Christmas or Eid al-Adha or whatever other holiday we or others might be celebrating.

And I agree that that's a sentiment we should appreciate. I too appreciate it when my non-Christian friends wish me a happy celebration of what I believe in. But I think I'd rather hear them wish me a Happy Holiday than that they wish me something I know they're not really wishing me.

So I guess you could say that this is one of those areas where I've become less stringent than I have been in the past. The way our society is today, I think it is more accurate and more honest for people to say "Happy Holidays" than to insist on them saying "Merry Christmas." And I think, as Catholics, that we should prefer that and encourage that versus letting "Merry Christmas" become just another generic term for people to use when they want to say "I hope you enjoy your celebration."

I didn't use to give the phrase "Merry Christmas" a second thought. When I grew up in my atheist household, we always said "Merry Christmas" and for years I never had any idea it had anything to do with a Person named Jesus. It was all about Santa and trees and Christmas presents. I guess you could say insisting on that phrase meaning something is one of those things that now seems important to me in a way it hasn't before.

You wrote:

As with the increased tolerance of "Happy Holidays," here too, I find I've become more flexible and understanding than I've been in years past. When I first became a Catholic, I was surprised and somewhat appalled, as you may recall, to discover that most Catholics saw their faith as little more than "warmed over Marxism." Socialism. Their Jesus wasn't the Jesus I had learned about in reading Scriptures or studying the Faith. Their "Jesus" was more akin to the Marx and Marxists I'd studied. So disgusted with that "divorce of Jesus from their lives," I fled the Vatican II church altogether, as you may recall.

But I returned to my local parishes when my daughter became old enough to prepare for First Communion. And I've been attending predominantly Novus Ordo Masses since, most of them in these local parishes. Thus, I have spent the last 12 years hearing the kinds of homilies that my fellow Catholics have been hearing all their lives. In that time, I've heard very few homilies that had anything at all to do with Jesus, the real Jesus. Nearly all those homilies have been about how important it is to "love our neighbor" and "feed the poor" and "give to others." Nearly all those homilies have taught that what it means to be a Christian is to be a "good person" who "gives to others." And rare indeed is the homily that even implies that the most important thing they should be giving to others is the Faith, the Good News of our Salvation, made possible for us by Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, a sacrifice made in payment for our sins.

Father Sotelo pointed out in one of his recent posts in a different thread that most of the Hispanics who voted for Obama did so because the Democrats came into their community and told them that they, the Democrats, are the ones who are pro-life and who care for the poor. I hadn't known that and have been pondering it a great deal since reading it, in preparation for composing a new post to him. But the thing is, Effie, how can I continue to think they voted their own self-interest when what they may have actually done is exactly what they thought they were supposed to do?

Like you, I used to find it troubling as well - the way so many Catholics celebrate "Christmas" without Christ. But I don't find it so troubling any more. I think they are doing exactly what they've been taught to do all their lives, in homily after homily. They have been taught that Christmas is about giving stuff and that being a good Christian is about giving to others. That's what Christmas means to them. And so, they spend all year saving up their money so they can spend the months before Christmas running frantically from store to store to buy all the things they think those they love and those they don't love want and need.

I used to think it appalling the way most Catholics don't observe Advent anymore. It is no longer a penitential time. But then, just the other day, it occurred to me that I'm very wrong about that. They really do observe Advent though in an entirely different way. I was driving home listening to the radio and hearing a little piece about how stressful a time Christmas is for people today, all the gifts all the money all the shopping all the commercialization... It occurred to me that they are, in a way, doing a kind of penance. Offering up their time and money and sanity to do just what they've been told is the most important thing Christians are supposed to do, espeically at Christmas time: giving stuff to other people.

And so, I can't say that I share your opinion, Effie. I would like to see non-Christians not wish me something they don't believe in, but rather wish me a Happy Holiday, which is what they really mean. I appreciate their kindness and their tolerance. I just don't want the watering down of the phrase anymore. And I find myself having more and more compassion every day for my fellow Catholics whose only real error in regards to the Faith is trusting that what their priests have given them from the pulpit and in their RE classes is indeed what the Faith is. How many saints have taught us that obedience to our spiritual directors, even if they are wrong, means something to God? They are His flock and if in following their shepherds they have been led astray, I think our Lord will reward their obedience.

God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Barb,

I'm not sure I see the distinction between wishing happy holidays compared to Merry Christmas when everyone knows that the holiday is mostly Christmas.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Hi Val,

You wrote:


I think when what people mean is "enjoy your holiday celebration," they should use the term that means that: "Happy Holidays." When what a person means is "have a Merry celebration of the birth of Christ" or "have a Merry Christ Mass", then they should say "Merry Christmas."

My objection is no longer to the way "Happy Holidays" has come to replace "Merry Christmas" but rather with the way "Merry Christmas" has come to mean nothing more than "Happy Holidays."

I suspect it's going to be an interesting Christmas Season for me this year because I'm determined that every time someone says "Merry Christmas" to me this year, I'm going to respond by saying something like, "Why Merry Christmas to you too! But may I ask, are you really wishing me a merry celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?"

God bless,
Barb

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"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Hi Barb,



Thanks, now i understand what you meant with your initial post. This explanation I can agree with.




Same here, but I suspect perhaps in different ways.

Some days I think Christians should stop putting so much attention on Christmas and start placing our emphasis on the Epiphany (as was done in the early Church) which celebrates the manifestation of Christ to the world. We would have to do it without associating it with getting presents, otherwise we'll end up with the same problems that we have with Christmas.

Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Dear All,
I used to be very conflicted about this and I think it was last year I started a thread about whether Catholics should wish, for example, Muslims a Happy Eid. I used to refrain from ever wishing non-Christians a happy whatever-their-holiday-was. However, I have completely changed my mind recently, and I think the good will created between people of different faiths is very important. This year I started putting on my FB posts things like "Eid Mubarak" to those who celebrate or "Best wishes to those who celebrate" with a photo of Diwali lights. And when I wish them well in person, their faces really light up-- that I've shown them some friendliness. I am trying to respect and love the person, not their (false) religion. Many of them wish me a Merry Christmas, and I appreciate it. I changed my mind because of John Paul II even though at first I resisted some of what he wrote.

Barb,
Yesterday a Christian FB friend wrote, "Let the Season of Giving begin!" and something niggled at the back of my mind. I think you've hit on what it was.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla