Catholic Online Forum

We often hear, especially on days like today (Veterans' Day), it said that we owe a great debt to those who fought to preserve our liberty. Also the same is said about those who protect us at home: police, firefighters, paramedics, etc.

So my question today is: what can we do, what should we do, as a country, as a society, to repay this debt?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

One thing we can do is listen to them, especially those who find themselves at the tip of the spear, with respect to readiness, equipment, logistical and combat support, rules of engagement, casualties - anything related to the prosecution of war and the projection of power for our men and women to be able to do their jobs effectively when called upon to do so.

And listen to those who support them, at home and abroad, in and out of the theater of operations, in uniform and out. Especially now, with so many deployments. A lot of men and women in uniform have seen multiple tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan and around the world, separated from their wives and families over and again for extended periods. Their sacrifice and dedication to duty literally, not figuratively, maintains our freedom from enemies abroad who would do us real harm and subjugate our society, given the opportunity. It is only in that they do their job well, such dangers seem so far off and distant from our everyday lives.

And respect the gift, freely given.

Pax et bonum,

_________________
-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

Well, one thing they should get is the best medical care which doesn't seem to happen under the VA system and I've heard of things with Tricare that are less than what most people receive with their insurance but don't recall specifics now. It just seems that I often read of things I consider injustices in regards to how they're helped once they are home.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Be good citizens, respect those who wear the uniform regardless of branch. Encourage your children to put on a uniform, it really is honorable service. Yes some get injured and killed, but many more get injured and killed driving down the road.

But mostly just be good citizens,vote, and vote responsibly, not for your wallet but for the good of your country.

_________________
Bob C

Val,

The medical service is pretty good. The VA has good days and bad days, but considering the work load and the lousy financing they get, they do a pretty good job.

I use Tricare and generally its okay, never had a real problem and when something did go wrong it was usually corrected promptly. It's like anything else run by humans some are good and some are not so good.

_________________
Bob C

Bob C,

The lousy financing is one of the things I mean. I have a vague memory of you saying something about what servicemen get on one aspect of medical care and I was angered by it but I have no idea now what the details are and I doubt you do.

I guess I was looking at it through the narrow view of experiences my uncle had (who served in WWII for five years and suffered severe frostbite in the Black Forest) and some stories online though those were psych stories and psych services seem worse on every health plan in general. I think of the VA hospitals like I think of the county hospitals, they're way overloaded and it can be difficult to get good care even though those in the system are well meaning and work hard. I actually often saw my brother get very good care at our local county hospital (it is a teaching hospital for UCLA medical school) but that overloaded and overworked aspects resulted in some spectacular failures of care.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

I don't feel as though my country owes me anything more than the rest of its citizens; I don't have service caused injuries, not verifiable at least, and when I served I did it for my country. I do think we could do better in financing the VA, we could do better at allowing physically and emotionally injured veterans the VA care they require without the need for so many to engage lawyers and we certainly could do much better assisting homeless and nearly homeless veterans. Our American Legion Post Service Officer can't keep up with the requests for rent and utility assistance from veterans who are un- or under-employed. If anyone is looking for a worthwhile, honest charity contact your local American Legion and offer to help finance the Service Officer.

_________________
BobA

Just watch your intonation when playing the service songs. You were a little flat yesterday.

_________________
Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

That's pretty much how I feel, Bob. I served between Korea and Vietnam so I never was faced with the possibility of combat. I'd like to think that I would have served without hesitation but was never called upon to do so.

That being said, I have nothing but awe and gratitude for those who stood in harm's way through the many wars since our country's birth.

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Val,



I have never had a bad experience with the VA Medical Care.

_________________
Bob C

Once the new VA regional medical facility is completed here in Denver I think things will greatly improve. The care is reported to be good at the current facility, no personal experience there, but it is very busy and showing its age and that may make many uncomfortable.

_________________
BobA

How about special treatment for vets who commit crimes?

==> New Law: Veterans Who Get Treatment Can Erase Criminal Record



Or maybe free weed:

http://westhollywood.patch.com/articles ... -marijuana

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

II don't know how it is now, but years back my sisters, who are nurses, preferred to work in VA facilities because of the better (numerical) staffing allowed them to give better care to each patient.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

If they want to seal a veteran's criminal history I might be OK with it; if they want to reduce or eliminate a veteran's sentence because he or she got psychological help I could live with that provided the veteran was certified as mentally competent by a licensed psychiatrist. It sounds a little nuts to assume that a veteran with war-related mental illness is OK after some treatment program and erase all evidence of a conviction record. Yes some veterans paid a particularly heavy price for their defense of the country and yes they should be afforded extra care and consideration but let's not do something that flies in the face of common sense. Yes I am a veteran, 1961-1970.

_________________
BobA

I tend to agree regarding material items given; however, I feel that what I risked all in defending was not given and as such can not be taken away.

A government that attempts to take away what it is charged with protecting and upholding becomes illegitimate and subsequently my enemy.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

For the record, I myself do not feel the service of police, firefighters, paramedics, etc is in the same league of service that military service is. However, I would consider some border patrol, diplomats and intelligence types to be comparable in their service to that of military service.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Why not?

_________________
Jeff Stevens

I have read the following regarding government charity in general and recently revisited it and read it again as it pertains to Hurricane Sandy "Aid" which many elected officials wish to 'give'. I think it as well applies to those who feel they have a 'debt' which requires the monies of others to pay.

Anyway, here is an answer I agree with: Not Yours to Give

-small excerpt:

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

The most obvious reasons involve personal sacrifice. For example - police, firefighters, paramedics, etc can quit whenever they choose to, live wherever they choose to, and they do not sacrifice any individual rights.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I agree with Daniel, but honestly it's hard to pin down. A police officer while certainly providing valuable, necessary service does so in the comfort of his home town (usually) he goes home to his family most every night, with some modifications that also applies to Firefighters and paramedics.

The military person even when stateside in Garrison, faces almost immediate deployment anywhere in the world for virtually any length of time. Sailors deploy on board ship for long periods of time, as do Marines.

Even when sent on Humanitarian Missions military personnel are often less then welcome.

It's hard to pin down Jeff, I certainly do not want to demean the service of the First Responders, but it simply is different.

_________________
Bob C

That stands to reason.

I'm not sure I would extend it to some of the others you mentioned (CBP, Diplomatic, etc), but the military/first responder divide is distinction is certainly reasonable.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

I would add to Daniel's reasons that emergency workers have less probability of being killed than soldiers in combat; their benefits are better; their retirement benefits are better (at least compared with the enlisted man lifer); they aren't separated from family in the way deployed soldiers are; their hours are pretty regular and limited (or they get overtime). It still takes incredible courage to be an emergency worker, and they are ready to make the ultimate sacrifice, but they don't necessarily sacrifice day in and day out, hour upon hour, like soldiers do. In fact, I know personally some officers in small villages who don't really have too much to do on a daily basis at all, and they have hired in with more dangerous municipalities so that they see more action.

In some cases, I believe we idolize first responders because of the potential sacrifice these public servants might have to make, not the sacrifices they are actually making. And I believe there are others who sacrifice more on a continous basis, who work under worse conditions, and who, although they don't go in with the expectation of giving up their lives in the course of their work, are in quite dangerous fields of work. See highway workers, foundry workers, high-rise construction workers, utility workers, foreign aid workers, etc. It's why I'm also not a fan of giving police/fire personnel a rigid pass when imposing benefit cuts on public servants in times of budget cutting.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

In some quarters that is a pejorative statement.

_________________
Bob C

Not meant to be.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I didn't think you did.

_________________
Bob C

By the way, add taxicab drivers to the list of jobs I consider more dangerous and certainly less rewarding than first-responder work.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That and clerks at what the police euphemistically call stop and shoot's all night little stores.

_________________
Bob C

Not all soldiers see combat. I don't have any stats, but I think most probably don't.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

According to This Source, policemen and other first responders aren't in the top ten most dangerous jobs in the US.

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Getting shot is not the only risk to life and limb in the military.

_________________
BobA

And risk to life and limb is not the only consideration. For soldiers deployed and leaving their families behind for months on end, even if they aren't in the line of fire, it's a greater sacrifice, in my opinion, and for less pay, than most first responders are called to make.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That's the real distinguishing factor, in my opinion. That and the inability to quit at any time without going to jail.

I suspect that military service is, on the whole, more dangerous than "first responder" service, but I think the above factors are more distinguishing.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

No one has done it yet so here is the "official" list of the top ten most dangerous occupations:

1. Logger

2. Pilot

3. Fisher

4. Iron/Steel Worker

5. Garbage Collector

6. Farmer/Rancher

7. Roofer

8. Electrical Power Installer/Repairer

9. Sales, Delivery, and Other Truck Driver

10. Taxi Driver/Chauffeur

_________________
BobA

Once upon a time that was correct, I doubt that standard is held today. For most of my time in Uniform I was a Communicator, I regularly came under fire in Vietnam. When I was "Off Duty" as in not being a Communicator, I rode Shotgun on Convoys, Stood Guard Duty, and Patrolled the mountain side.

_________________
Bob C

Yes, I did — back up a few posts!

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Sorry Jim, I looked for a list but overlooked your Link.

_________________
BobA

I have tried my hand at many of those jobs.

_________________
Bob C

Pilot...hmm...

I wonder how that is a dangerous enough job to be listed in the top 10, let alone the top 5. I would be surprised that so many pilots as a % of the total number of pilots are killed on the job. I wonder how the danger of a job is determined statistically. It's likely I'm just unaware of the casualty rate. The list I came up with was just gut feeling.

My brother is a captain for one of the airlines, and he tells me these jetliners can practically land themselves these days. I guess factoring in small craft pilots and military pilots and perhaps helicopter pilots would make the job as a whole be rated as more dangerous.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Not simply practically. Actually. And not simply can...do. I've read online from people claiming to be commercial passenger and cargo pilots that every 5th landing or so is actually done via autopilot to ensure it's working properly.


That was my suspicion. Small planes much more than airlines.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

My B-I-L is also an Airline Pilot, I was also surprised that was listed so high.



I did not see any Military Specialties listed, so I am guessing they were not included, so we could surmise then that Military Pilots were not included.

As these are occupations, most small planes are used not for Commercial purposes so I wonder what they were counting?

_________________
Bob C

This article provides more statistical rationale: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/09/20/the-10-deadliest-jobs-in-america

_________________
BobA

==> Deadliest Jobs in America

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx