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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2008 16:20 
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Cardinal Christoph Schönborn (bio - news) of Vienna has voiced his support for an Austrian judge's decision that a terrorist suspect should remove her burka in court.
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=57288

Note: this Cardinal is the editor of the CCC.

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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2008 16:40 
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So?

We make no comment when prisoners are forced to strip down and change to promote security...

I see little difference.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2008 09:32 
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I don't know - I think it is entirely appropriate to have a terrorist suspect searched on the way into the courtroom, even strip searched if necessary. But, to force a conservative Muslim woman to remove her burka for the entire session in a mixed courtroom seems a little extreme and disrespectful. I don't agree with the mentality of the burka, but for someone who does, it is kind of like making a woman take off her shirt and sit in the courtroom shirtless. (Again - I don't agree with this assessment, but that is the reasoning behind it all.) Why couldn't the judge simply have the woman searched - again strip searched if necessary - in a private room and preferably by women when she enters the building and the allow her to cover herself back up if the search reveals that she has no weapons or bombs on her? Or, if they are really that concerned, force her to change into clothers a burka that they provide after searching her. Security is still maintained, but so is the dignity and respect owed the woman in question.
Of course, it was a very short article and that may have been what happened. I just think that forcing a woman to abandon a practice that her religion as she (and many others) understand it demands is disrespectful and will lead to resentment and further tensions in the future.
But - I'll probably be outvoted on this as usual. :)
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Brigid C.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2008 11:30 
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I think they have to make sure of her identity. In other words they want to make sure that it is the same woman showing up every time in court and that all involved see that it is the same woman.
So the judges, the jury and the lawyers (maybe others too) have to see her.
I have read that in the Middle East, they have caught certain men dressed up in burkas, taking written university examinations for a woman friend or relative.

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2008 19:34 
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I have heard that when military personnel in the Middle East take a breather to watch some football and the cheerleaders come on TV (by someone in the military who went there), the guys there start yelling due to the immodesty and start bowing down and praying.

Different culture. They respect women in an entirely different, yet in some ways arguably more appropriate way than we do here.

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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2008 19:48 
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When it comes to marriage and inheritance (and other things too) a woman is not treated as in the West. In Christianity the woman is equal to (but not the same) as a man.
In Islamic cultures, a man can divorce a woman by just saying "I divorce you". If a man is upset at his wife he can put her in a room, or apartment, that they call "House of Obedience" where he can lock her up as in a prison. If she had left the house, the police by order of the court can get her from anywhere and bring her back to her husband who can then put her in the House of Obedience.
A woman cannot do the same to a man.

With inheritance a woman gets half the share of a man. So a sister would get half the share of what her brother gets (from their fathers inheritance).

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2008 05:45 
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Kim,
Yes, but a woman can divorce her husband for a variety of different reasons, depending on what school of law the court holds to. If it can be shown that a man is mistreating his wife, she can divorce him for that reason and keep the money she is entitled to as per the marriage contract. (In the marriage contracts, the man agrees to pay his wife a certain amount determined by the couples and their families should he divorce her - if she divorces him, save for one the reasons allowed by the law - she loses that right. Many women, unfortunately, do give up the right to that money to make the divorce happen more quickly.) Any allegations that either the husband or the woman brings up in trial must have four witnesses. It isn't ideal, but it isn't as desperate a situation as saying a woman cannot get a divorce at all.
The reason for the inheritance is this law - I believe - is in the Qur'an. At that time, the man was responsible for the income and support of his family. It was assumed that a woman would have a husband, brother, or other male relative that would support her and so she didn't need as much. (Not too unlike other societies at the time I can think of.) That reasoning is very outdated now - and that is one of the problems with Islam. . . the texts do not leave a lot of room to change with the times. Laws that made sense and were actually progressive at the time of Muhammad (before him, the women in that culture didn't get any inheritance - though Beduion women and even Muhammad's wives could and did divorce their husbands) now end up trapping people - especially women.
God bless,
Brigid

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2008 13:22 
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brigid_c wrote:
Kim,
Yes, but a woman can divorce her husband for a variety of different reasons, depending on what school of law the court holds to. If it can be shown that a man is mistreating his wife, she can divorce him for that reason and keep the money she is entitled to as per the marriage contract. (In the marriage contracts, the man agrees to pay his wife a certain amount determined by the couples and their families should he divorce her - if she divorces him, save for one the reasons allowed by the law - she loses that right. Many women, unfortunately, do give up the right to that money to make the divorce happen more quickly.) Any allegations that either the husband or the woman brings up in trial must have four witnesses. It isn't ideal, but it isn't as desperate a situation as saying a woman cannot get a divorce at all.
The reason for the inheritance is this law - I believe - is in the Qur'an. At that time, the man was responsible for the income and support of his family. It was assumed that a woman would have a husband, brother, or other male relative that would support her and so she didn't need as much. (Not too unlike other societies at the time I can think of.) That reasoning is very outdated now - and that is one of the problems with Islam. . . the texts do not leave a lot of room to change with the times. Laws that made sense and were actually progressive at the time of Muhammad (before him, the women in that culture didn't get any inheritance - though Beduion women and even Muhammad's wives could and did divorce their husbands) now end up trapping people - especially women.
God bless,
Brigid


Yet more stellar evidence of the reality of Jesus as the Messiah. What Messiah would make laws that only directly apply to the time He is in? The laws of Our Savior apply to all humanity for all time. Christianity actually promotes progression (regarding positive, morally right progression...unfortunately, many of our "progressions" are much more "regressions" in an ethical sense).

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2008 14:21 
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brigid_c wrote:
Kim,
Yes, but a woman can divorce her husband for a variety of different reasons, depending on what school of law the court holds to. If it can be shown that a man is mistreating his wife, she can divorce him for that reason and keep the money she is entitled to as per the marriage contract. (In the marriage contracts, the man agrees to pay his wife a certain amount determined by the couples and their families should he divorce her - if she divorces him, save for one the reasons allowed by the law - she loses that right. Many women, unfortunately, do give up the right to that money to make the divorce happen more quickly.) Any allegations that either the husband or the woman brings up in trial must have four witnesses. It isn't ideal, but it isn't as desperate a situation as saying a woman cannot get a divorce at all.
The reason for the inheritance is this law - I believe - is in the Qur'an. At that time, the man was responsible for the income and support of his family. It was assumed that a woman would have a husband, brother, or other male relative that would support her and so she didn't need as much. (Not too unlike other societies at the time I can think of.) That reasoning is very outdated now - and that is one of the problems with Islam. . . the texts do not leave a lot of room to change with the times. Laws that made sense and were actually progressive at the time of Muhammad (before him, the women in that culture didn't get any inheritance - though Beduion women and even Muhammad's wives could and did divorce their husbands) now end up trapping people - especially women.
God bless,
Brigid


You brought up a lot of good points.
The right to divorce is given mainly to men in the Koran. In the marriage contract the woman can get the "esma" if the husband to be, agrees to it. With this "esma" the woman holds the powers (instead of the husband) to get divorced. That is very rarely given by the husband to be for obvious reasons.

Another option which is not accepted in all Moslem cultures is the notion of "khul". That is when a woman is allowed to start divorce proceedings without the husbands agreeing to it.

When a woman has a big problem with the husband (eg permanent harm) , she can try to get a divorce through the court systems but that sometimes takes a long time. It is not easy.

The other thing is that it is not socially acceptable for a woman to try to get divorced from her husband.
So one cannot really say that women have the same rights as men in Islam.

The other thing that I did not mention is that a man has the right to marry 4 wives at the same time. There has been instances where a man marries 4 at one time, divorce 1 or more and marries others. As long as he has 4 married to him at one time, he would not be breaking any laws.
A woman cannot marry more than one man.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2008 15:01 
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Corey,

Quote:
They respect women in an entirely different, yet in some ways arguably more appropriate way than we do here.


Seriously?

I guess you're right. In fact, they so completely respect a woman's virginity that they'll kill her if she loses it......even to rape.

I can't think of much of anything more degrading than to force a person to cover their face. It turns them into a nonperson .........practically everything a person expresses is expressed through their face as much as any other means.

Respect for women is not a strong force in Islam. Is it respectful to have a concept of heaven the ability to have under one's control 72 virgins? The idea obviously, is to take that virginity by force

I'm not even convinced that it was respect for the modesty of the women cheerleaders that motivated them or if it was more a factor of seeing them as evil temptresses more than human beings with dignity.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2008 18:45 
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Val wrote:
Corey,

Quote:
They respect women in an entirely different, yet in some ways arguably more appropriate way than we do here.


Seriously?

I guess you're right. In fact, they so completely respect a woman's virginity that they'll kill her if she loses it......even to rape.

I can't think of much of anything more degrading than to force a person to cover their face. It turns them into a nonperson .........practically everything a person expresses is expressed through their face as much as any other means.

Respect for women is not a strong force in Islam. Is it respectful to have a concept of heaven the ability to have under one's control 72 virgins? The idea obviously, is to take that virginity by force

I'm not even convinced that it was respect for the modesty of the women cheerleaders that motivated them or if it was more a factor of seeing them as evil temptresses more than human beings with dignity.


Val,
emphasis on "yet in some ways more appropriate"

So, you are saying that a society that doesn't reject having half-naked women constantly on TV (in fact, on football games, which are regarded as a good family time) respects the dignity of its women better than a society where its men will flip out at themselves and start praying for seeing a women other than his wife with probably more clothing on than that?

That was the point I was making.

Sorry I didn't clarify.

I wish you would ask me why I wrote something if I forgot to clarify, instead of assuming the worst implications and attacking me like a Kansas tornado.

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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2008 23:26 
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Val wrote:
I guess you're right. In fact, they so completely respect a woman's virginity that they'll kill her if she loses it......even to rape.

Val,

There was a time when rape was regarded as a fate worse than death for a Christian woman, and no decent Christian man would marry a woman who was not a virgin, whatever the reason. Of course, there was a somewhat different standard for men.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2008 03:18 
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JMJ

David,

Quote:
no decent Christian man would marry a woman who was not a virgin, whatever the reason


The loss of virginity IS far worse than death, if it's a deliberate act. From St. Agnes of Rome to St. Maria Goretti our women always preferred the latter to the former. As to prejudices against raped women, it was indeed widespread, for instance in southern Italy, where they have suffered from several centuries of Islamic rule. Others had similar problems in former Hun or celtic areas. I would not confuse cultural conditionings due to historical contexts with the results of a wrong anthropology or even faith. That men used to prefer virgins to marry is something I find hard to object to - within reasonable limits - and hopefully the same standard will be applied to men once we manage to re-evangelize our culture.

However, the double standard derived - paradoxically - from a (wrong) social re-elaboration of a common (and not entirely baseless) prejudice against men, not women. That's why the institution of marriage (indissoluble, and with adultery prosecuted as a crime with severe penalties) was seen also as a guarantee for women more than it was for men, because it obliged men to grow up and take things seriously, since - especially in sexual matters - they were traditionally considered unreliable, and I am afraid we've done little to change that perception.

The prejudices deriving from a professed doctrine are one thing, those surviving among Christians in spite of their faith as taught by the Church and spread by evangelization are quite another. And, there is always the original sin (and that applies to both muslims and Christians). I don't wish to start a discussion on Islam but it is without a doubt that the very anthropology of Islam puts women in a state of absolute inferiority (for instance, in a trial, 2 women are needed for a valid witness against a man, and their marriage legislation basically makes a woman equal to an object or an animal to be sold). When Christendom would see queens and empresses and female religious founders ruling Europe side by side with men, advising Popes and Cardinals, settling disputes, making laws and leading armies, muslims would react horrified at our "corruption".

As to religiously inspired garb, my humble opinion is that people should be free to clothe the way their tradition and culture suggest, on condition that their choice does not express a clear disregard for the dignity of the person and for natural law in general. Burkas (and similar excesses) fall under such category. They originate in a totally unacceptable idea of women, it makes them difficult to breathe and disturbs blood circulation, causing harm to their eyes and even recurring headaches, to say nothing of depression and the rate of suicide and addiction among Afghan-Iranian women. Other lighter "islamic" veils are not so offensive and truly motivated (at least in part) by a sincere desire for modesty and dignity. If worn voluntarily, they should not be forbidden.

That authorities have a duty and a right to require that all persons be recognizable for securiyt reasons should go without saying.

The contrary excesses of our own present culture are no justification to allow other barbaric customs in our countries. We need to counter both forms of degrading habits, the way our forbears did: a combined action of evangelization, reform of customs and legislation. It's called temporal order for a reason, and it's crucial to the salvation of souls (at least to provide each person the chance of seeking God with no other constraint than just laws and the lived culture of their fellow countrymen.

The end of the culture of family with the inevitable corollary of divorce, abortion and contraception legal and on demand have only made women weaker (in all senses: in non-Christian cultures like India and China, abortion kills mostly girls), and have now turned the image of women - at least from the point of view of role-models and the perception of many - precisely in what Islamists accuse them to be as a whole: naturally perverted beings who love to show their body to corrupt men. The rate of rapes and sexual harassments growing in keeping with the pressure of the the politically correct nonsense about "free" sexuality only show this fact.

That's the "freedom" our modern world gave women: to appear naked on magazines and movies for the pleasure of men, to take pills and kill babies to free their coward partners of all responsibilities and to let them have a body available anytime. But I digress.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2008 14:22 
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pilgrim wrote:
JMJ

That men used to prefer virgins to marry is something I find hard to object to - within reasonable limits - and hopefully the same standard will be applied to men once we manage to re-evangelize our culture.


The end of the culture of family with the inevitable corollary of divorce, abortion and contraception legal and on demand have only made women weaker (in all senses: in non-Christian cultures like India and China, abortion kills mostly girls), and have now turned the image of women - at least from the point of view of role-models and the perception of many - precisely in what Islamists accuse them to be as a whole: naturally perverted beings who love to show their body to corrupt men. The rate of rapes and sexual harassments growing in keeping with the pressure of the the politically correct nonsense about "free" sexuality only show this fact.

That's the "freedom" our modern world gave women: to appear naked on magazines and movies for the pleasure of men, to take pills and kill babies to free their coward partners of all responsibilities and to let them have a body available anytime. But I digress.


:)

Interesting concepts.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2008 15:44 
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David,

Quote:
There was a time when rape was regarded as a fate worse than death for a Christian woman, and no decent Christian man would marry a woman who was not a virgin, whatever the reason. Of course, there was a somewhat different standard for men.


And I don't like them either.

There were many atrocities committed in our past and there are still men in Christian religions treating women with incredible cruelty. I was reacting to the present situation of women in predominantly Islamic countries. I don't believe that we equally degrade our women.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2008 15:48 
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Corey,

Quote:
So, you are saying that a society that doesn't reject having half-naked women constantly on TV (in fact, on football games, which are regarded as a good family time) respects the dignity of its women better than a society where its men will flip out at themselves and start praying for seeing a women other than his wife with probably more clothing on than that?


No, I'm saying that overall the Islamic countries repeatedly and in a variety of ways deny the most basic rights to women. As to our half naked women.....at least they weren't forced into it.

I'm sorry you felt attacked, it was certainly not my intent.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2008 23:23 
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Getting back to the original topic of not being allowed to wear a burka in an Austrian court, I think it is interesting that in Muslim countries like Iran, Kuwait, Egypt, etc women must have their faces uncovered for their driver license ID (not in S. Arabia, however, since women aren't allowed to drive at all there).

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PostPosted: 28 Jun 2008 12:34 
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My neighbour's wife wears the veil whenever she goes out - but at 4am last Saturday when I was woken up by them doing building work I went round to ask them to stop it and she was only in a hijab. So if it is so objectionable, why did she not run into the house instead of telling me there was no law against doing DIY at 4am?

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2012 17:45 
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012 11:50 
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Could you provide a quote for those who (like me) avoid privacy-robbing social media sites?

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2012 14:59 
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Solution 1) The court is attended entirely by women. Female judge, female lawyers.
Solution 2) The defendant removes the niqab - the face veil - at least temporarily for the purposes of ID.

Usually, taking the men out of the equation is the easiest solution.

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