Catholic Online Forum

Jeff,



In my church one cannot see the tabernacle. I sit when the priest sits because I assume he knows when the appropriate times comes to have us all sit at the same time. The exception is when I get fed up with having no silent time after receiving and I sit to pray a few seconds before the priest sits. Growing up we sat when the priest sat but that always coincided with the Eucharist being returned to the tabernacle but I was also taught that in general, throughout Mass that we follow the lead of the celebrant in terms of when we stood and sat and he should always be the first one to initiate the action. The reasoning give to me was respect for the celebrant's role, not mindless, sheep like behavior.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,



A good example of Cardinal Mahony acting contrary to Chuch law (there are many others). My prayers for your new good Archbishop.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

The Orange diocese is adjacent to Los Angeles and tends to copy their rules. Several years back a priest in one parish told the people that the bishop had ordered everyone to stand until all had received, and that it was a mortal sin to do otherwise. [The bishop couldn't remember having said that.]

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Joe,



Orange is suffragen to LA?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Yes, but I don't think that mandates common rules on matters such as this.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

What does " technically not allowed to kneel" mean? Are you saying that your bishop is forcefully demanding that the congregation diminish their adoration of Our Lord during the most sacred portion of the Mass? I would defy that bishop and dare him to do something about it, I'd also pray for him.

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BobA

Defying bishops is inadvisable unless he instructs you to do something sinful.

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Jeff Stevens

I can envision the headlines: Catholic parishioner ostracized by bishop for kneeling to adore God during communion! I am deeply thankful for the Holy Father's encouragement of the TLM, you won't find many "innovative" PC clergy there.

For the record, I do find a bishop telling me I cannot kneel before God sinful but not a sin on my part.

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BobA

Leaving aside the bit where there are people who feel that anything less than kneeling is sinful, what about the high percentage of people who do absolutely nothing?

What bugs me about this is that, if you haven't left something out, it concentrates on correcting the people who do more than necessary and not at all on correcting the people who do less than they ought. Therefore, it would appear that this has nothing to do with unity but instead with punishing people who are following the pious practices of centuries.

Please tell me that you've left something out about correcting those who do not bow before Our Lord prior to receiving His Body and Blood, because otherwise, this rule paints the Bishops in a very mean-spirited light.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

To whom is this addressed?

It seems to me that the instruction is clear; we are to bow. Those who don't bow are not following the norms. ANY norm not being followed should result in further instruction, it seems to me.

Why did they single out the practice of kneeling? Probably to protect those who kneel from being denied communion as a result.

I agree it is a shame that there are priests who would deny Our Lord to those who, through an excess of zeal, choose to kneel to receive communion.

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Jeff Stevens

I say it is inadvisable because it is disobedient to your shepherd, not because he's going to ostracize or excommunicate you. He is a successor to the apostles and he is responsible for your soul. If he instructs us to do something in his purview (and liturgy is most certainly in his purview) which is not sinful, we are bound to obey it. If it is unwise, he will answer for it. We will be rewarded by God for our obedience.


For the record, he is not telling you that you cannot kneel before God. He is telling you that you should not kneel after receiving communion...at which point God is inside you as well as before you.

And you really think it is sinful for him to so instruct? Wow.

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Jeff Stevens

I thought I was asking you, Jeff, but on re-reading the thread, I see I was probably asking Dean.

The way the bits quoted here are written, it would seem that those who kneel are to be singled out for some "pastoral instruction," but if a person does less than bow, it doesn't need to be addressed.

From where I'm sitting, it appears that we're happy to accommodate those who don't want to show reverence to our Lord, but those who show more reverence than we're comfortable with need to be singled out for "instruction".

We all receive on the tongue and kneeling at our parish unless physically unable to do so. People who wander in off of the interstate generally shrug and join in. Some of us genuflect as we go to the altar rail as well. So far no one has tripped over anyone, nor has the "flow" been hampered.

Back before altar rails and kneeling, generally what would happen would be for a person to genuflect as the person in front of him was receiving. The line is stopped for that instant and there's plenty of time. There was no tripping then, either.

I received such "instruction" once at a neighboring parish. It was a loud admonishment designed to make me, my family, and my regular pastor to look ridiculous.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

With all that I have to atone for in my life defying a bishop by showing Our Lord more respect, more gratitude that He allowed me to receive Him that day in the Eucharist than some bishop "allows" is the least of my worries, I'll take my chances. Since when does any clergy have the right to tell a communicant he or she cannot kneel in deep thanksgiving for the privilege of receiving communion because the bishop thinks it "looks" more uniform for all to stand rather than all to kneel or it is more socially proper; perhaps the Eucharistic concept of "banquet" has been distorted to mean some social affair. This is in my opinion misguided at least and possibly worse.

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BobA

Seriously? You're asking since when a bishop has the right to instruct his flock regarding what should and should not be done in the liturgy?

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Jeff Stevens

Regarding why the bishops don't instruct that people who show no sign of reverence aren't to be denied Holy Communion and are to receive pastoral guidance on the reason for the norm... I think Jeff's explanation is a good one. The focus on kneeling was made to protect those who kneel from being denied Holy Communion while at the same time pointing out that kneeling is not the norm for the sign of reverence and that those who kneel are to be given pastoral instruction as to the reason for the norm. The prescription was put in place because there were most likely people who were being denied Holy Communion when they knelt to receive.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

But it doesn't sound like that, particularly in the way it's applied.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Gentlemen, allow me to inject:

http://www.zenit.org/article-14363?l=english
“After Communion the faithful are free to adopt the posture most consonant with their physical possibilities and personal devotion, whether kneeling, standing or seated.”

From the GIRM 43:
“…as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.”

I don't see any instruction that tells me I must defer to the personal preference of a bishop nor do I read that the bishop can issue an instruction forbidding me from exhibiting a proper sign of reverence to Our Lord.

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BobA

To get back to the original before communion question; I regularly attend parishes in the archdiocese of Denver and Pueblo each having different instructions for posture before communion. I remain kneeling until it is time to stand and that is when the communion procession is approaching my pew I as was instructed as a youth and have done for decades. At a NO Mass when I am one person away from receiving I bow from the waist as sign of reverence, I receive on the tongue standing; due to a disability, I kneel for communion at the TLM only if there is a substantial Altar Rail to support me as I rise again, there normally is but not always, Masses outside a dedicated church building for example across from the abortion clinic or at a substitute locale such as a gym or auditorium, otherwise I bow as I do at the NO Mass. The GIRM allows my posture preferences.

There would be far less confusion and discussion if the Church would adopt one set of rules instead of allowing such diversity among diocese and even parishes. The fact that wide divergence is allowed tells me it really isn't considered that important an issue in the Church.

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BobA

Keep in mind there are three issues woven into this thread (and now possibly a fourth, with the introduction of the posture to be taken before going up to receive). The sign of reverence to be used before reception, the posture to be taken after reception, and the posture to be assumed during reception.

A word of caution to remember what the original subject of the thread was (the sign of reverence to be made just before receiving communion) and to not confuse the issues.

A word regarding deference to the "personal preference of a bishop," as if the bishop is somehow just Rome's toady, this is in Canon Law:



Pastoral function being made up of the threefold munera of teaching, sanctifying (sanctifying = liturgy), and governing. Therefore, while perhaps one can make a case that governance of the posture to be taken after reception has been delegated to the bishops conference, and therefore the individual bishop is not legitimately able to modify this for his diocese (I'm not able to argue one way or the other), I would not go so far as to discount the authority one's own bishop has to compel one to do "this or that" when it comes to the liturgy. A diocesan bishop does in fact have great authority within his own diocese to bind and loose. In effect, he is "pope" of his diocese, and those (relatively few) areas not reserved to another ecclesiastical authority, such as the Pope, are the diocesan bishop's to decide.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean, I understand and for someone attending Mass at one parish it works but for those of us who frequent parishes in more than one diocese it does not. First of all there is no way of knowing a parishes idiosyncrasies as a visitor; second, if there are widely divergent practices across parishes and diocese those practices are not laws or even rules, they are personal preferences and finally, as long as what I am doing is no less reverent or is in no way disruptive to the conduct of, or reverence of the Liturgy, I am doing nothing wrong. As I said earlier, it's time the Church get back to standard Liturgical practices if it desires conformity; to the contrary, the Church has published practices that allow divergent signs of reverence and postures. I have read suggestions by various bishops but I have not come across any who absolutely demand specific signs of reverence or postures; again, if it isn't a universal Church law it's a preference.

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BobA

Bob,



You're incorrect. If it isn't a universal Church law, it may be a particular law that is as binding on the faithful in that territory as universal Church law is. A diocesan bishop may make law for his diocese as long as such law is not reserved to another authority.

If one travels around in different dioceses, I would recommend doing what the Romans do while one is in Rome. Just as I don't buck the system at a particular parish that happens as a whole to not follow the norm when it comes to receiving Communion while standing. Rather than make myself conspicuous, I kneel to receive, in union with that part of the Body of Christ, and avoid standing out (literally) like a raised fist.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Rose,

I think you're referring to me in the statement that it's not allowed to kneel after receiving communion but I didn't mean it as reference to the presence of any outright prohibition or punishment for not adhering to it as an individual communicant but it's clearly what he wants all his priests to follow.

Aodoremus issued a statement here: http://www.adoremus.org/97-11_gft.htm

It includes that we must have music until all have received and doesn't state there is a point where the congregation should kneel during that time period. I haven't read the full document lately and don't want to now. I'm hoping Archbishop Gomez can undo some of these practices but I don't think he can until the old guard has died out. Ironically, when Cardinal Mahony chose to celebrate his fiftieth anniversary, he chose our parish (naturally because it's his home parish and where he now lives) but also chose the most traditional style Mass.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

As we saw earlier in this thread, the cultural meaning of postures differs with geography and subculture. I think that is why the Church, in its wisdom, delegates authority for choosing norms with cultural attachments to the local churches (dioceses).

We should also remember the principle of subsidiarity; it applies to the Church as well.

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Jeff Stevens

So are you all ready to tell me my "disobedience" is a sin to confess? I suppose a couple will tell me I'm guilty of pride; how proud is it to bow before the Lord as compared to giving Him a quick nod; how proud is it to kneel before the Lord as compared to standing in unison for no reason other than to present some form of communal unanimity.

Let me reiterate a citation from another post:

Philippians 2:10
Douay-Rheims Bible
"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth":
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"...so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth",

and ask if this is required at the very mention of Jesus' name how then can it not be required at the reception of His very Body and Blood?

The arbitrary practices rampant in the NO are what drove me to back to the TLM and will ensure I continue to attend the TLM whenever and wherever possible. Until such time as the Church officially condemns my behavior I will also continue to present myself to the Lord with the reverent respect due Him regardless of whatever "norms" the NO parish I happen to be in that day practices. We have lost our way when we think our social "norms" can replace the deep reverence we should be exhibiting in Church, to me that is the real sin of pride.

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BobA

Bob,

I won't tell you anything of the sort. I will tell you that is not wrong to obey your bishop in matters within his competence to govern, even if you believe he is wrong. It's certainly safer for your soul. I also do not believe you have a proper appreciation for the role of the diocesan bishop within his own diocese. He is the chief shepherd of the particular Church that is his diocese and is to be honored/respected as such. His governance is more than personal opinion. It's not as if he is just the lacky of the Pope. The Pope overrules the bishop of a particular Church very cautiously. What you do differently from what your bishop prescribes is, in my opinion, risky, and is not particularly pious, which includes within it respect for the Church made present because of the presence of the bishop, and which Christ set in place to speak in his name.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean and Jeff, this discussion is hurting my head and my Faith, my solution is to attend the TLM to the extent I can and grit my teeth and bite my lip for those other occasions. The GIRM unambiguously tells me what I'm doing is authorized, one of the few Church documents that is so clearly written.

I'm not a subscriber to the SSPX but I can understand where they are coming from to a large degree as well as I can understand why the FSSP came into existence.

I'll follow this discussion with interest but I have no more input.

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BobA

Hi Bob,
You may find the section of the catechism on the primacy of conscience to be interesting / relevant

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s1c1a6.htm

including ...

"Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matter"

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squirt
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Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse

Thank you "squirt", can't get used to calling you that!

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BobA

Actually, I was referring to proper signs of reverence *before* the reception of Communion, and it was Dean, posting snippets relevant to what Jeff was saying.

As for what to do after Communion, our diocese, after having several members write letters to pastors, the bishop, and then the Vatican, is in line with what Cardinal Arinze said in response, which is that the faithful may stand, sit, or kneel as best suits their ability to make a prayer of thanksgiving. Given that, I suspect reason it hasn't been changed everywhere is that those places don't have members so willing to carry their case forward as in our diocese.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)