Catholic Online Forum

The first interactive Catholic Forum on the web
It is currently 22 May 2013 14:14

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:10 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
The estimable Mr. Karl Keating, founder of Catholic Answers and an eminently reasonable Catholic, says in this article:

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... ecnum=1336

Karl Keating wrote:
The Ceremonial of Bishops notes that "a genuflection, made by bending only the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration and is therefore reserved for the Blessed Sacrament, whether exposed or reserved in the tabernacle" (69). According to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, during Mass the priest is to genuflect at certain times: "after the showing of the Eucharistic bread, after the showing of the chalice, and before Communion" (233). Immediately after his genuflection at Communion time, the priest self-communicates.

A few things can be said about these points. Genuflections are to be made whether the Eucharist is reserved in the tabernacle—a point that Fr. Creedon makes—or is exposed. It is exposed any time it is visible, exposition not being limited to the case of exposition in a monstrance during a holy hour or benediction. If the consecrated species are on the altar, a genuflection is called for. The next point is that the priest himself genuflects just before he receives Communion. He genuflects as a sign of adoration. Does this "call undue attention" to himself, to use Fr, Creedon's complaint about lay genuflectors? Hardly, since the action is mandated in the rubrics. Is the priest's genuflection "disruptive to the true spirit of public worship"? No. It is a part of that true spirit and so can't be disruptive to it.

You see what's coming: If a genuflection is proper for the priest as he receives Communion, on what grounds could it be improper for lay people, given that nothing in the rubrics suggests that genuflection is a posture reserved for the clergy? Hold that thought a moment as we consider what the Church has taught about what lay people are to do as they receive Communion.

In Inaestimabile Donum, the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship noted that, "when the faithful communicate kneeling, no other sign of reverence toward the Blessed Sacrament is required, since kneeling itself is a sign of adoration." But a sign of reverence should be made when the people receive Communion standing, which is the most common way in American parishes. "When they receive Communion standing, it is strongly recommended that, coming up in procession, they should make a sign of reverence before receiving the Sacrament. This should be done at the right time and place, so that the order of people going to and from Communion is not disrupted" (11).

To summarize: If you receive Communion standing, you should make a sign of reverence just before you receive. What should that sign be? Inaestimabile Donum doesn't specify, but one could argue that the priest and people should make the same sign, to show unity among themselves. What sign does the priest make? He genuflects. This suggests that genuflection, then, is the most proper sign for the people to make. But it is not the only sign they may give. They may give some other sign of reverence, such as a deep how or even the sign of the cross. What is required is some sign of reverence, and the choice is up to the communicant.


On the other hand, we have this instruction:

From:
http://old.usccb.org/romanmissal/girm-a ... s-en.shtml
Quote:
When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister.

From:
http://old.usccb.org/romanmissal/resour ... ins3.shtml
Quote:
The bishops of this country have determined that the sign which we will give before Communion is to be a bow, a gesture through which we express our reverence and give honor to Christ who comes to us as our spiritual food.


It seems that the bishops of the United States have determined, with the approval of the Congregation for Divine Worship, that a bow is to be the reverence used for the Holy Sacrament in the United States.

So are we in the United States permitted to genuflect before receiving communion? Are we permitted to receive kneeling?

If we are permitted, is it wise? Is it advisable?

My OPINION is that we should obey our bishops and let them worry about the decisions and the ramifications, but this is the doctrine forum, so I'm looking for something somewhat more definitive.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:22 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2003 03:49
Posts: 3474
You are always and everywhere permitted to receive kneeling in the Latin Church.
You are always and everywhere permitted to receive on the tongue.

Signs of reverence may be culturally determined, however I would assume that genuflexion is permitted. Be careful not to trip people up, though!

A head nod? The altar gets a bow from the waist.... hmmmmmmmmm

_________________
Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:27 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
Julie R wrote:
You are always and everywhere permitted to receive kneeling in the Latin Church.
You are always and everywhere permitted to receive on the tongue.

Signs of reverence may be culturally determined, however I would assume that genuflexion is permitted. Be careful not to trip people up, though!

A head nod? The altar gets a bow from the waist.... hmmmmmmmmm

Do you have a citation for that liberty, Julie?

Are we then to disregard guidance from our bishops for our nation then?

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:28 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
Jeff,

The USCCB determined the bow is the common form, even the minimum. It does not mean other forms approved by the CDW is not acceptable. Kneeling does not go against what the USCCB sought approval from the CDW and is not a scandal, and there is no question if it is advisable or not.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:37 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
ianJM wrote:
Jeff,

The USCCB determined the bow is the common form, even the minimum. It does not mean other forms approved by the CDW is not acceptable. Kneeling does not go against what the USCCB sought approval from the CDW and is not a scandal, and there is no question if it is advisable or not.

Interesting.

So we can interpret instructions from the USCCB/CDW as the minimum, which we can exceed at our option?

Hm. That doesn't sit well with me. But I admit the fault may be mine.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:44 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
These days receiving the Blessed Sacrament is either tongue or hand. We have a choice under the what our bishops determine, don't we?

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:46 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Jeff,

It appears from the links you provide that the answers to your questions are contained therein. To start with, from one of the links you provided:

Quote:
In addition to serving as a vehicle for the prayer of beings composed of body and spirit, the postures and gestures in which we engage at Mass have another very important function. The Church sees in these common postures and gestures both a symbol of the unity of those who have come together to worship and a means of fostering that unity. We are not free to change these postures to suit our own individual piety, for the Church makes it clear that our unity of posture and gesture is an expression of our participation in the one Body formed by the baptized with Christ, our head. When we stand, kneel, sit, bow and sign ourselves in common action, we given unambiguous witness that we are indeed the Body of Christ, united in heart, mind and spirit.


Therefore, in answer to your questions,

Quote:
Are we permitted to receive kneeling?


And, is it wise?

Quote:
The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and still less, hand them on to one another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.


It seems in the U.S. that the bishops take a negative view toward kneeling to receive. In the statement above, they say that reception of Holy Communion cannot be denied, but that those who kneel should be catechized on the reasons for the norm of standing.

Given both of the above statements regarding personal piety and the need to catechize those who receive while kneeling, at least in the U.S., I would conclude it isn't wise in most cases to kneel. At some parishes, however, everyone still kneels at an altar rail. Although it could be argued the entire parish (and the pastor) should be catechized about the reasons for the norm, and that I could not be denied Holy Communion if I stood at the rail, it would be wise to kneel in union with the Body of Christ which is present in that parish at that time, rather than call attention to myself.

Quote:
So are we in the United States permitted to genuflect before receiving communion?


Our U.S. bishops state:

Quote:
The bishops of this country have determined that the sign which we will give before Communion is to be a bow, a gesture through which we express our reverence and give honor to Christ who comes to us as our spiritual food.


and:

Quote:
When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister.


They don't say anything about genuflection. They instead decree that the gesture to be used is a bow.

I would therefore bow, in obedience to my bishops and as a sign of unity with the Body of Christ.

What might the disposition be of those who, in the U.S., persist in genuflecting? They need to examine their motives for making a different gesture. The bishops have the authority to prescribe and proscribe gestures, and it is safe to follow their lead in matters such as this. Better perhaps than not following their lead and doing something else.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:48 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Ian,

It would be good to have citation from the CDW that authorizes other gestures that may be used, even in the face of prescriptions by the various bishops conferences. All I see is that the GIRM leaves it up to the bishops conferences to determine the gestures, and the U.S. conference offers only one gesture (not a norm, but one gesture) for reception and one norm for reception (while appearing to urge pastoral dealings with those who persist in kneeling).

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 13:00 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Jeff,

It seems to me that Mr. Keating, whom I admire, is stretching to justify genuflection, in the face of the plain words of the bishops under whose jurisdiction he resides.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 13:11 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
Dean,

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal says those who present themselves kneeling should not be denied the Eucharist. You are right that the matter should be addressed pastorally, but as I read it, the document does not say that kneeling is not acceptable in the US.

Quote:
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.


So, the question is: are communicants disobeying their bishops if they kneel, or worse cause a scandal? (BTW, in Singapore we are also asked to bow)

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 13:28 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Ian,

Quote:
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal says those who present themselves kneeling should not be denied the Eucharist. You are right that the matter should be addressed pastorally, but as I read it, the document does not say that kneeling is not acceptable in the US.


Correct. But it's not a ringing endorsement of kneeling. Therefore, while it may be permissible, it is not smiled upon if the bishops are calling for the catechizing of those who persist in kneeling.

At best, communicants who kneel in the U.S. aren't following the legitimate, liturgical authority of their bishops - something I find rather at odds with piety. Whether it is sinful or not, I don't know; it could very well depend on intent and the effect this noticeable departure from the prescribed gesture has on others. It's certainly not a desireable situation, given the GIRM's concern for unity.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 13:31 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
ianJM wrote:
So, the question is: are communicants disobeying their bishops if they kneel, or worst cause a scandal? (BTW, in Singapore we are also asked to bow)

Well, if the faithful do not do what is prescribed as a "norm", is that disobedient?

It seems to me that when a priest violates a "norm", we call it a liturgical abuse, and we call that priest disobedient. Is what is good for the goose likewise good for the gander?

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 13:36 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
Dean,

I agree, obedience to the Bishop we come under is paramount.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 13:53 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2002 11:50
Posts: 18891
Location: USA
Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum

Quote:
[90.] “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms”.[176]



Courtesy of Fabrizio from a long buried thread

_________________
Bob C


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 14:22 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2003 03:49
Posts: 3474
One citation:
Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum, Prot. n. 1322/02/L,Rome, 1 July 2002

Quote:
Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.




also:http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwadori.htm#receiving

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/08/quaeritu ... communion/

Plus, read GIRM in Latin...

_________________
Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 14:49 
Online
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2002 16:21
Posts: 15610
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship wrote:
"When they receive Communion standing, it is strongly recommended that, coming up in procession, they should make a sign of reverence before receiving the Sacrament. This should be done at the right time and place, so that the order of people going to and from Communion is not disrupted"


How can genuflection before receiving be accomplished without disrupting the "order of people going to and from Communion"? If 10% of those receiving genuflect, will that significantly impact the order?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 20:02 
Online
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2009 15:57
Posts: 2785
LASaxman wrote:
Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship wrote:
"When they receive Communion standing, it is strongly recommended that, coming up in procession, they should make a sign of reverence before receiving the Sacrament. This should be done at the right time and place, so that the order of people going to and from Communion is not disrupted"


How can genuflection before receiving be accomplished without disrupting the "order of people going to and from Communion"? If 10% of those receiving genuflect, will that significantly impact the order?


Many of us in our parish bow before communion, we do so as the person in front of us is receiving so as to not disrupt the flow. Those of us using a cane or walker and those carrying infants and cumbersome purses have been requested by the pastor to receive on the tongue since both hands are required to properly receive in the hand. I have always preferred to receive on the tongue due to my training in religious education classes and I really prefer to kneel for communion but stand as the bishop directed when I'm at the NO Mass.

_________________
BobA

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 01:11 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2003 03:49
Posts: 3474
What about the examples of Masses celebrated by the Pope, and things the Prefect of the CDW's said?

_________________
Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 01:53 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
I just had an interesting chat with my Vietnamese brother, who dropped by on the way to visit his mum near Saigon. He is a diocesan priest in Perth and told me that the highest form of reverence in Asian culture is to bow and not genuflect. And this is the preferred norm in Asia before receiving the Eucharist.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 09:01 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jul 2003 21:49
Posts: 7751
Location: Los Angeles, California
Most people here, if they do anything, bow from the waist. The Bishops say to bow the head in one place and in another, just use the word bow which to me means from the waist. I bow from the waist as that is the norm here and a bow of the head does not seem very reverent to me. However, I don't like to bow when the person in front of me is receiving because then I don't feel as though I'm bowing to the Lord but rather, that I'm bowing to the person in front of me though obviously, the Lord knows what I mean. So I would rather bow just before I receive which is possible at the monastery and not unusual there but it can be disruptive at the parish as the person behind is not expecting me to stop and bow at that time and the priest is already starting to extend the Eucharist.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 09:06 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
Julie R wrote:
What about the examples of Masses celebrated by the Pope, and things the Prefect of the CDW's said?

The Pope generally does not say masses in the United States.

I don't know what the law is regarding whether the pope can, at will, override the instructions of the local bishops' conference for his own masses. Obviously, as the source of Law in the church, he can change the law as it suits him, I just don't know how that actually happens in practice.

The Church's law indicates that it is the proper place of the local bishops' conferences to determine this and promulgate it. I think it's very much related to factors similar to what Ian posted above; local cultural and practical factors. Our local bishops' conference has indicated that bowing is the proper form of reverence for the United States. I'm going to obey them.

Perhaps it is a logistical concern? I have a feeling that many American parishes are much larger than in other parts of the world. The average Sunday Mass I've attended in my diocese is around 700 people.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 09:30 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Julie R wrote:
One citation:
Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum, Prot. n. 1322/02/L,Rome, 1 July 2002

Quote:
Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.




also:http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwadori.htm#receiving

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/08/quaeritu ... communion/

Plus, read GIRM in Latin...


I disagree with Fr. Z that the pastoral approach called for by the U.S. bishops to deal with those who receive kneeling would include any nuance encouraging them to continue. It's pretty clear from the context of the previously cited documents that a pastoral approach in explaining the reason behind the norm is either to explain why standing is the norm or to perhaps tolerate those who kneel.

No one is arguing that kneeling is not permissible or that communion should be denied to those who kneel.

Finally, many of us here can't read Latin and must place faith in an accurate translation to the English that is on the Vatican website. If the GIRM in Latin specifies something different, it would be gracious of you to perhaps detail what it says.

What of this quote, cited earlier?

Quote:
We are not free to change these postures to suit our own individual piety, for the Church makes it clear that our unity of posture and gesture is an expression of our participation in the one Body formed by the baptized with Christ, our head.


To what might that statement be referring, if not also to posture during reception?

Regarding Masses celebrated by the Pope and things the Prefect of the CDW said...

I seem to remember there being liturgical dance during Masses in front of Pope John Paul II. Does that legitimate its use worldwide for all times and all places?
There are undoubtedly plenty of people at these Masses receiving Holy Communion unworthily. Does that legitimate unworthy reception?
At which Masses? In St. Peter's, where the norm is different from in the U.S.?

Clearly, those who kneel aren't to be denied Holy Communion (not something I have any heartburn over), however, that's not the same thing as saying those who kneel are doing that which the bishops (at least in the U.S.) wish them to do. I would think piety would encourage people to be in synch with the bishops in their place of worship with regard to liturgical actions, postures, and practices.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 10:30 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
ianJM wrote:
highest form of reverence in Asian culture is to bow and not genuflect. And this is the preferred norm in Asia before receiving the Eucharist.


Not necessarily. :wink: Before Vatican II, our part of Asia knelt for communion. And during Corpus Christi and Christ the King solemnities, when the Blessed Sacrament was processed all over town under an ombrellino, people actually knelt on the ground. Also, at times when a priest was on the way to the house of someone dying and a handbell rang to announce that he was carrying the Viaticum, people in the streets knelt on the ground as he passed by.

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 10:45 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2002 11:50
Posts: 18891
Location: USA
Marie,

Can the Philippines rightly be called an Asiatic Culture?

_________________
Bob C


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 11:36 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
BobC wrote:
Can the Philippines rightly be called an Asiatic Culture?


Bob,
The Philippines is in Asia, in the southeast, located just above the equator. People there speak several varieties of the Indonesian-Malayan language with sprinkling of Chinese. Spanish is for the colonials and the elites (the very, very rich and the very, very old.) American English is a public language, used in schools, media, and government.

Filipinos have Asian faces and although the majority have Spanish names, many still retain their Asian surnames (My maiden name happens to be Armenian but that doesn't count.)

Like most coastal and island Asian countries, rice and fish are the staples in our diet. We use a lot of soy sauce, fish sauce, curry sauce, tofu, bitter gourd and other "exotics" in our dishes. Like Malaysians and Indonesians, we use our fingers for eating rice, except when in polite company when we use spoons/forks/knives and very rarely, chopsticks.

But for our majority religion (Roman Catholic) and popular entertainment and clothing styles (American Hollywood), I'd say, yes, the Philippines can still be rightly called an Asiatic culture (and hanging in there.)

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 11:57 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
Dean wrote:
No one is arguing that kneeling is not permissible...

While I agree that no one should be denied communion because they knelt to receive it, I'm not sure I would call kneeling to receive "permissible" in the United States.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 12:42 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
Dean wrote:
It's pretty clear from the context of the previously cited documents that a pastoral approach in explaining the reason behind the norm is either to explain why standing is the norm or to perhaps tolerate those who kneel.


Dean,
I think that part of the USCCB pastoral document has been deleted, i.e., It is no longer required that a kneeler be told or be taught why standing is the norm. I was reading it somewhere (USCCB site or Adoremus, I think - at any rate, an authoritative source), but, sorry, I cannot now locate it.

Quote:
I seem to remember there being liturgical dance during Masses in front of Pope John Paul II. Does that legitimate its use worldwide for all times and all places?


The fact that liturgical dances were used at John Paul II papal Masses did not legitimize them. They were tolerated because it appears that a Pope has not much liturgical control when in the mission fields or when dealing with liturgy with an ethnic flavor. At any rate, Pope Benedict XVI got rid of the JPII's liturgist named Marini almost as soon as he could, and replaced him with another, also named Marini, who's more traditional, or at least, rubric-minded.

It is said that dancing is legit in Masses with African congregations where dancing is part of their worship culture. But this probably mean spontaneous dancing - not choreographed dancing.

Huge difference - spontaneous ethnic dancing involves hand clapping and snapping of fingers, perhaps swaying of heads and arms, some turn-arounds, stomping of feet in place, and holding hands with neighbors in the pew. Stylized choreographed dancing means young ballerinas in leotards and flowing scarves prancing about in the sanctuary, carrying bowls of smoking incense or sprinkling holy water on the congregation as if they were priestesses. Or comedian Stephen Colbert break-dancing with the lectionary on his way to the podium. The latter examples clearly do not pass for "ethnic cultural consideration" or "active participation."

Quote:
There are undoubtedly plenty of people at these Masses receiving Holy Communion unworthily. Does that legitimate unworthy reception?


No, of course not. Receiving communion unworthily is never legitimate.

Quote:
Clearly, those who kneel aren't to be denied Holy Communion (not something I have any heartburn over), however, that's not the same thing as saying those who kneel are doing that which the bishops (at least in the U.S.) wish them to do. I would think piety would encourage people to be in synch with the bishops in their place of worship with regard to liturgical actions, postures, and practices.


Quite a few of us in our parish have a fool-proof way to solve this dilemma. Our pastor discourages us to receive on the tongue and while kneeling, saying it could spread germs. So when it's his Mass, we receive standing and on the hand. But there's a Latino priest in my parish who encourages people to receive on the tongue and to genuflect or kneel. So we do so when at his Mass. Problem solved.

I feel that whichever of the two positions you choose to receive is okay, as long as you kneel down as soon as you reach your place in the pew and thereupon silently adore and thank the Lord whom you have just received.

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 12:53 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2004 14:47
Posts: 1564
sfousa wrote:
I feel that whichever of the two positions you choose to receive is okay, as long as you kneel down as soon as you reach your place in the pew and thereupon silently adore and thank the Lord whom you have just received.


I don't know why, but for some reason I thought that in the US everybody was supposed to stand until everyone has received ...

Occasionally, I see somebody standing at our church until everyone has returned to the pews. At those times, I've always figured the person is a visitor from the US.

_________________
squirt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 13:24 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
squirt wrote:
I don't know why, but for some reason I thought that in the US everybody was supposed to stand until everyone has received ...

That's Europe.

And technically, you're allowed to take any position you want after communion. It's just customary in Europe to stand, as it is customary in the US to kneel.

What I find amusing about the US tradition is that it typically lasts until Father sits, which seems very...sheep-ish to me. Mindlessly imitating the priest without regard to the reasoning.

I try to kneel until Our Lord is reserved in the tabernacle, then I will often sit back if no one is kneeling behind me.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 13:37 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Marie,

Quote:
Dean,
I think that part of the USCCB pastoral document has been deleted, i.e., It is no longer required that a kneeler be told or be taught why standing is the norm. I was reading it somewhere (USCCB site or Adoremus, I think - at any rate, an authoritative source), but, sorry, I cannot now locate it.


Check out Paragraph 160 of the GIRM posted on vatican.va. It has not been removed.

Quote:
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 13:41 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2004 14:47
Posts: 1564
Kardinal wrote:
squirt wrote:
I don't know why, but for some reason I thought that in the US everybody was supposed to stand until everyone has received ...

That's Europe.

And technically, you're allowed to take any position you want after communion. It's just customary in Europe to stand, as it is customary in the US to kneel.

What I find amusing about the US tradition is that it typically lasts until Father sits, which seems very...sheep-ish to me. Mindlessly imitating the priest without regard to the reasoning.

I try to kneel until Our Lord is reserved in the tabernacle, then I will often sit back if no one is kneeling behind me.


Thanks, Jeff. Now I recall that when I went to Mass in Spain I was struck by how much standing went on ...

And we do get quite a few European visitors here.

_________________
squirt
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamais le mal n’aura le dernier mot. La foi et l’amour déplacent les montagnes de la haine.
- Marguerite (Maggy) Barankitse


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 13:46 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Jeff,

Paragraph 43 of the GIRM:

Quote:
They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.


I kneel for a time and then sit when I am done praying. I don't wait for the priest to sit, nor do I wait for the doors of the tabernacle to be shut. Purification, especially when Holy Communion has been received under both species, can take a long time.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 14:19 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2002 11:50
Posts: 18891
Location: USA
Marie,

Of course being in the US Military as long as I had been I was aware of where the Philippines were but for some reason I never thought of the Filipino Culture as Asiatic, most of the Filipinos I had met did not give me that impression either.

_________________
Bob C


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 14:59 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2003 03:49
Posts: 3474
I've never seen people in Europe standing after Communion (Latin Rite assumed).

_________________
Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 15:11 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14661
Location: Sydney, Australia
Julie,

Quote:
I've never seen people in Europe standing after Communion (Latin Rite assumed).


Nor Oz. I believe the novelty was the work of that "expert" on liturgy, Cardinal Mahony.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 15:38 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
sfousa wrote:
BobC wrote:
Can the Philippines rightly be called an Asiatic Culture?


Bob,
The Philippines is in Asia, in the southeast, located just above the equator. People there speak several varieties of the Indonesian-Malayan language with sprinkling of Chinese. Spanish is for the colonials and the elites (the very, very rich and the very, very old.) American English is a public language, used in schools, media, and government.


Marie,

I would think the Philippines is influence heavily by their Spanish and American colonial past, just as Singapore is from its British past. But to the majority of the Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Khmer and Japanese in the continent, bowing is the highest form of reverence. And one other interesting thing my brother added: In Vietnam, joss sticks are also used at Masses. It is part of the culture of the East to use it instead of burning incense, as they have always used joss sticks to worship.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 15:58 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 05:16
Posts: 15722
Location: Southern California, Catholic
ianJM wrote:
....But to the majority of the Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Khmer and Japanese in the continent, bowing is the highest form of reverence. ...
My parish is now at least 50% [and probably a bit more] Asian, primarily Vietnamese. During the flu season a couple of years back bowing replaced the handshake at the Kiss of Peace for a while. I find that it has hung on to some extent. I find myself automatically bowing in greeting to the Asians. It is a comfortable custom.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 16:21 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 05 Sep 2002 16:11
Posts: 8621
Location: Eastern NC
Kardinal wrote:
Dean wrote:
No one is arguing that kneeling is not permissible...

While I agree that no one should be denied communion because they knelt to receive it, I'm not sure I would call kneeling to receive "permissible" in the United States.

From the bits that you and others have posted, I would think that it's "permissable but not preferable."

Meanwhile, I'm realize that you started the thread to focus on the one side of the question specifically, but I'd be more interested in whether there's a section on pastors needing to approach the people who do nothing to show reverence. It would appear that those people are not showing unity, either.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 18:28 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Rose,

Quote:
but I'd be more interested in whether there's a section on pastors needing to approach the people who do nothing to show reverence. It would appear that those people are not showing unity, either.


That's the truth, for sure. Our parish prints a note that a bow of the head should be made before receiving, but either many people don't read the note, forget about the note, or don't care about the note.

I was making a bow of the head when I read Redemptionis Sacramentum shortly after it came out. The pastor at the time actually mocked me for my piety when I approached him for Communion. "My, aren't we being pious?" he said. And not in a tone that would indicate he was pleased.

I'm glad he left the priesthood.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 19:44 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8551
Location: Northern VA, USA
It's remarkable how complicated this issue is. 100 years ago we simply obeyed our parish priest and trusted God for the rest. Why should the average Catholic have to read the GIRM, the USCCB web site, and a Dubium from the CDW to know what he's supposed to do before receiving communion?

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 20:47 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
ianJM wrote:
I would think the Philippines is influence heavily by their Spanish and American colonial past, just as Singapore is from its British past. But to the majority of the Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, Khmer and Japanese in the continent, bowing is the highest form of reverence.


Ian,

You're right, of course - bowing is a form of reverence, but where I came from, it's not the highest form.

I grew up genuflecting to my parents and other elders for their blessings before going to bed at night. In the bigger cities this custom is replaced by the kissing of the elder's hand - or at least taking the hand to touch your forehead.

Bowing is our form of sharing the "Kiss of Peace," having rejected an earlier Conference of Bishops' ruling that (like the Americans) we should all shake hands at a sign of Peace. Of which most people complained, "But shaking hands means congratulations...why should we congratulate each other during Mass"? So now at the sign of peace, we simply fold our hands and bow to the people around us.

But on receiving Communion, time was when we all knelt down - until after Vatican II when we are now told to stand in line and receive Communion by hand (just like Americans.) :)

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 21:06 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
BobC wrote:
Of course being in the US Military as long as I had been I was aware of where the Philippines were but for some reason I never thought of the Filipino Culture as Asiatic, most of the Filipinos I had met did not give me that impression either.


Bob,
Ian is right to say that the Philippines' colonial past (Spanish for 400 years; American for 50 years) have helped mold us somehow. And I'd say that least in public, Filipinos don't behave so much as Asians as "like-Americans" (I have other words to describe that, but I'm trying to sound positive about it, since it can't be helped. And really, it's a survival skill.) But among ourselves, we are very Asian indeed.

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 22:43 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
Dean wrote:
Check out Paragraph 160 of the GIRM posted on vatican.va. It has not been removed.


Dean,

CDW did not affirm the GIRM qualification of "providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm," because apparently, the "reason for this norm" was not specific to the reception of Holy Communion. And at any rate, it seemed to have been misidentified in the GIRM. Here's, apparently, is the complete story:

http://www.madisoncatholicherald.org/gu ... enaer.html

Quote:
In 1967, the Sacred Congregation of Rites promulgated an instruction entitled Eucharisticum mysterium, which stated that “the faithful may receive Communion either kneeling or standing.” It went on to say, however, that one or the other posture was to be chosen by the conference of bishops to be the norm for their territory. The USCCB decided that the norm for the dioceses in the United States would be standing, which is reflected in article 160 of the GIRM as adopted for this country.

The GIRM, though, immediately adds two qualifications. First, it states that communicants “should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel.” Secondly, it notes that “such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.”

Unfortunately the reason for this norm is not contained in article 160 itself, as one might expect, but occurs earlier in article 42 regarding the importance of a uniform posture during the sacred liturgy. Article 42 states that a common posture is to be observed throughout the whole of Mass — not just during Communion — since a uniform posture signifies the unity of the Christian community.


Quote:
(This) question came to the Congregation for Divine Worship from Cardinal George of Chicago in 2003, who asked whether the GIRM forbid one from kneeling in personal prayer after receiving the Eucharist even though the rest of the community sat or stood.

The congregation replied that article 42 of the GIRM meant to “ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture” while not seeking to “regulate posture rigidly.” Though the question itself does not directly pertain, this response gives some insight regarding how article 42 is to be applied throughout the other parts of the Mass, including at Communion.

The congregation responded forcefully, stating that they consider “any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful.” Furthermore, they issued a warning to priests who “should understand that the congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness.”


Quote:
Are those who kneel for Communion disobedient?

Following the promulgation of the GIRM, many held that those who chose to kneel when receiving were being disobedient to the norm created by the USCCB. This very question came to the congregation in 2003, who indicated that they had received “more than a few letters regarding this matter.”

The congregation was unequivocal in stating that “the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Communion.” This response corrected the misinterpretation found in a July 2002 newsletter from the USCCB’s own liturgy committee, which stated that “kneeling is not a licit posture.” It is now quite clear that kneeling to receive Communion is a licit posture and not one of disobedience, as some had previously thought.


Therefore, no catechesis needs to be given the kneeler-communicant.

************
Reference links to click:

CDW Letter to a U.S. Bishop

Quote:
"... while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops' Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion."



Adoremus Bulletin

Quote:
Before giving the required "recognitio" to this adaptation of the US bishops' conference, the Congregation of Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments required that "communicants who choose to kneel are not be denied Communion on these grounds". The same letter stated, "the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species". (see CDW letter dated July 2002 above.)

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 22:43 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
Marie,
sfousa wrote:
I grew up genuflecting to my parents and other elders for their blessings before going to bed at night. In the bigger cities this custom is replaced by the kissing of the elder's hand - or at least taking the hand to touch your forehead.

While I can safely say that genuflecting to parents and elders is foreign to most cultures in the continent, the "kissing of the elder's hand - or at least taking the hand to touch your forehead" is something I see more common in Southeast Asia, especially among the Malays and Indonesians, both of whom share a very similar culture. But I doubt this is will ever be practical when we consider instances when inculturation of the Gospel message can help the faith of people from diverse cultures in Asia.

sfousa wrote:
Bowing is our form of sharing the "Kiss of Peace," having rejected an earlier Conference of Bishops' ruling that (like the Americans) we should all shake hands at a sign of Peace. Of which most people complained, "But shaking hands means congratulations...why should we congratulate each other during Mass"? So now at the sign of peace, we simply fold our hands and bow to the people around us.

I see that the GIRM has spelt out who has the authority to decide this:

    390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include

    The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43);

    The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273);

    The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87);

    The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362);

    The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82);

    The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283);

    The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346).


sfousa wrote:
But on receiving Communion, time was when we all knelt down - until after Vatican II when we are now told to stand in line and receive Communion by hand (just like Americans.) :)

Yes, I remember this as well. But prior to the existing edition of the GIRM, there was some useful information about how the Communion posture came about. That document is no longer online, but EWTN has reproduced it here: History and Interpretation of the Norm

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2013 08:07 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Marie,

And yet the same language is in the GIRM from last year? Everything you cite is from several years before. You are only repeating what has been said by me before - no one here is arguing that people who kneel should be denied communion. I also agree it is wrong to accuse people who kneel where standing is the norm of being disobedient. That is the part of being pastoral, in my opinion. It is not pastoral to accuse people of bad intent in any case, let alone in the case of kneeling vs. standing.

What I am saying is that it is clear the U.S. bishops desire standing to be the norm and that they desire unity in posture and that people who kneel need to examine themselves for why they are not submitting to the desire of the U.S. bishops. Notice that the CDW only said that it is not proper to accuse someone of disobedience or of acting illicitly. It did not say that people are thereby not acting out of disobedience, because such a statement would also go to the intent of the person, which we cannot judge. But it would not be unreasonable to conclude that among the many who kneel, there are those doing so out of something other than piety. It is like saying we cannot know who is in hell, but we can be pretty sure someone is.

Rebellion occurs on the traditionalist side of the aisle as well as the liberal side. In order to keep safe from behaviors that arise from pride or rebellion in myself, I would try mightily to follow the legitimate guidance of my bishops where clearly they are competent to govern. And the guidance is clear here.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2013 11:51 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
Dean wrote:
But it would not be unreasonable to conclude that among the many who kneel, there are those doing so out of something other than piety. It is like saying we cannot know who is in hell, but we can be pretty sure someone is.

Rebellion occurs on the traditionalist side of the aisle as well as the liberal side. In order to keep safe from behaviors that arise from pride or rebellion in myself, I would try mightily to follow the legitimate guidance of my bishops where clearly they are competent to govern. And the guidance is clear here.


Dean,
I agree. I'm one of those who'd rather not rock the boat. I feel that after I have received the Lord standing in line in the NO, He wouldn't mind so much to wait till I'm back kneeling at my place in the pew to hear my prayers of adoration and thanksgiving. God bless you and Happy Epiphany!

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2013 11:59 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11424
Location: State of Michigan, USA
sfousa wrote:
Dean wrote:
But it would not be unreasonable to conclude that among the many who kneel, there are those doing so out of something other than piety. It is like saying we cannot know who is in hell, but we can be pretty sure someone is.

Rebellion occurs on the traditionalist side of the aisle as well as the liberal side. In order to keep safe from behaviors that arise from pride or rebellion in myself, I would try mightily to follow the legitimate guidance of my bishops where clearly they are competent to govern. And the guidance is clear here.


Dean,
I agree. I'm one of those who'd rather not rock the boat. I feel that after I have received the Lord standing in line in the NO, He wouldn't mind so much to wait till I'm back kneeling at my place in the pew to hear my prayers of adoration and thanksgiving. God bless you and Happy Epiphany!


And to you as well, Marie!

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2013 12:04 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2002 13:12
Posts: 3877
Location: Vallejo, California
ianJM wrote:
... the "kissing of the elder's hand - or at least taking the hand to touch your forehead" is something I see more common in Southeast Asia, especially among the Malays and Indonesians, both of whom share a very similar culture. But I doubt this is will ever be practical when we consider instances when inculturation of the Gospel message can help the faith of people from diverse cultures in Asia.


Ian,
I think so too. The "kissing of hands" is between two people of unequal status, i.e., between a person who's older by at least a generation and a child. Or a priest/bishop and a member of the faithful. I can't see how that would work at the Sign of Peace.

Thank you and a Happy Epiphany to you and yours. :)

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2013 21:27 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2004 08:50
Posts: 6578
Location: Singapore
And Happy Epiphany to you and your family as well, Marie.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 13:27 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jul 2003 21:49
Posts: 7751
Location: Los Angeles, California
Marie,

Quote:
I feel that whichever of the two positions you choose to receive is okay, as long as you kneel down as soon as you reach your place in the pew and thereupon silently adore and thank the Lord whom you have just received.



It is required in the Los Angeles diocese to stand until everyone has received, it's technically not allowed to kneel after receiving though many do.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SCGH and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group