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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 09:24 
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Our best lectors have the attitude that they are proclaiming the word and not reading it. They don't engage in dramatics, they practice beforehand, double check the pronunciation of everything, pay attention to the punctuation, speak in a loud, clear voice with careful enunciation and the word is proclaimed. I feel more engaged in the word when they read and simply less distracted. I don't have to deal with the low sultry voice of the worst lector or the struggling of others to even say the words correctly or pay attention to the cadence of the reading.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 10:18 
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Kardinal wrote:
Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
David,

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A lector can emphasize or deemphasize certain phrases or passages.


Which is precisely what they should not do. The readings should be recited in a flat almost dull tone. All too often the readings are done by well meaning people who want to show off their amateur acting skills - a highly animated and expressive performance. The problem is that we are getting their interpretation. That is not how liturgical readings should be done. Scripture operates at a number of different levels, all at once. We need to be able to be open to all of them.

I am struggling with this. I understand what you're saying in the abstract, and there is certainly a great deal of value to it.

I'm concerned, however, that all too much of the reading of the Word I hear is extremely flat and, for lack of a better term, dead. Monotonous, almost. This misses an opportunity to engage the listener in the reading at all.

Grace builds on nature. I think there needs to be a both-and. Readers should read the text dynamically, varying their voice and giving life to the text, and avoid a monotone. But not shoehorn the text into their interpretation of it by emphasizing some words and de-emphasizing others, to permit, as you say, the text to speak in as many ways as possible to as many as possible.

As a reader, this is a balance I struggle with. I have received many compliments for my reading, but I may be infusing it with my own emphasis, even if I am honestly thinking that is what the text is saying, instead of letting the text speak on its own.

When I lectored at Holy Angels, every reader attended a yearly workshop and, additionally, received a workbook which covered every Sunday and Holy Day reading. The workbook explained the purpose of the reading (according to the Church) and what parts should be receive emphasis and what that emphasis should be.

And, yes, the workbook was Church-approved.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 11:09 
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Kardinal wrote:
I am struggling with this. I understand what you're saying in the abstract, and there is certainly a great deal of value to it.

I'm concerned, however, that all too much of the reading of the Word I hear is extremely flat and, for lack of a better term, dead. Monotonous, almost. This misses an opportunity to engage the listener in the reading at all.

Grace builds on nature. I think there needs to be a both-and. Readers should read the text dynamically, varying their voice and giving life to the text, and avoid a monotone. But not shoehorn the text into their interpretation of it by emphasizing some words and de-emphasizing others, to permit, as you say, the text to speak in as many ways as possible to as many as possible.

As a reader, this is a balance I struggle with. I have received many compliments for my reading, but I may be infusing it with my own emphasis, even if I am honestly thinking that is what the text is saying, instead of letting the text speak on its own.


Can I tell you just how much I love that you're putting these questions out there, Jeff? It's absolutely awesome. These are great questions. Thank you so much. I still don't have quite the words for what I understand is happening in that moment of the Mass, but it has to do with the difference between taking (and in this case two meanings of the word grasping) and receiving.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 11:24 
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retsinab wrote:
When I lectored at Holy Angels, every reader attended a yearly workshop and, additionally, received a workbook which covered every Sunday and Holy Day reading. The workbook explained the purpose of the reading (according to the Church) and what parts should be receive emphasis and what that emphasis should be.

And, yes, the workbook was Church-approved.

Jim,

When I lectored (which was some years ago) we had similar training and workbook. I assume it was "Church approved" but I don't really know this for a fact. And "Church approved" might just mean approved by some liturgist in the diocese or even some committee in the parish. As I recall, I did not find the workbook particularly helpful.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 11:32 
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LASaxman wrote:
retsinab wrote:
When I lectored at Holy Angels, every reader attended a yearly workshop and, additionally, received a workbook which covered every Sunday and Holy Day reading. The workbook explained the purpose of the reading (according to the Church) and what parts should be receive emphasis and what that emphasis should be.

And, yes, the workbook was Church-approved.

Jim,

When I lectored (which was some years ago) we had similar training and workbook. I assume it was "Church approved" but I don't really know this for a fact. And "Church approved" might just mean approved by some liturgist in the diocese or even some committee in the parish. As I recall, I did not find the workbook particularly helpful.

I am jealous.

You know how much formation I received as a reader? Zero. We have a manual. I read it. But we do not meet, we do not discuss, we do not train, and for a year and a half the head reader did not even hear me read.

Now I think I'm pretty good as a reader (which, if it's any track record, means I'm woeful, but hey, I can only say what I think), and I've gotten many compliments. But that's much more due to decades of public speaking experience and study of Scripture rather than any resources we have available.

And Lord knows some of our readers could use some training and formation. But again, what do I know?

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 11:56 
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Dean,

Was the Priest a Religious Priest? I know that Franciscans have their own Missal that is approved for use. It is always confusing when they use that missal. At our parish it only used for Franciscan Feast days.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 12:27 
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BobC wrote:
Dean,

Was the Priest a Religious Priest? I know that Franciscans have their own Missal that is approved for use. It is always confusing when they use that missal. At our parish it only used for Franciscan Feast days.


He was a diocesan priest, indeed an associate at the parishes clustered with the cathedral.

I knew he was making unauthorized changes because of the following:

He: The Lord is with you. Us: And with your spirit. He: Have you lifted up your hearts? Us: um, er, hmmm...We lift them up to the Lord?

He also used "for all" instead of "for many" and used "cup" instead of "chalice" in the words of institution.

I'm sure there were other unauthorized changes he made, but I didn't have the missal with me and therefore could not verify.

I wonder if he ever has a chance to try out his novelties in the presence of the Archbishop, since he is a priest at the cathedral.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 13:05 
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LASaxman wrote:
When I lectored (which was some years ago) we had similar training and workbook. I assume it was "Church approved" but I don't really know this for a fact. And "Church approved" might just mean approved by some liturgist in the diocese or even some committee in the parish. As I recall, I did not find the workbook particularly helpful.

By "Church approved", I mean it had an "imprimatur".

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 15:36 
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Val wrote:
Our best lectors have the attitude that they are proclaiming the word and not reading it. They don't engage in dramatics, they practice beforehand, double check the pronunciation of everything, pay attention to the punctuation, speak in a loud, clear voice with careful enunciation and the word is proclaimed. I feel more engaged in the word when they read and simply less distracted. ...
From what I have read, Proclaim is the proper verb for this. The Word is to be proclaimed, like a public announcement,to the people.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 15:46 
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Jeff,

Quote:
I am struggling with this.


I wasn't stating a personal preference. It is simply the traditional approach as to how the readings ought to be proclaimed.

As I said, if they are sung (as is ideal) the problem is solved.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 15:55 
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Val,

Quote:
Our best lectors have the attitude that they are proclaiming the word and not reading it. They don't engage in dramatics, they practice beforehand, double check the pronunciation of everything, pay attention to the punctuation, speak in a loud, clear voice with careful enunciation and the word is proclaimed.


You are very fortunate.

When I was a schoolboy a teacher I knew (not one of mine) was in a production of Man for All Seasons by the Genesian Theatre Company. One of my school-fellows asked "What's the Genesian Theatre Company?". I answered (in the presence of this teacher - what a horrible child I must've been!) "Oh, they're a bunch of Catholic high school English teachers who didn't into NIDA".

Most of the readers (or lectors as Americans call them) I have to suffer seem to be rejects from the Genesian.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 15:56 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Jeff,

Quote:
I am struggling with this.


I wasn't stating a personal preference. It is simply the traditional approach as to how the readings ought to be proclaimed.

I am aware that you were not.

I must have missed the citation about the traditional approach.

Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
As I said, if they are sung (as is ideal) the problem is solved.

And singing them is totally uninspiring to much of the laity, unengaging to much of the laity, and leads to less understanding among much of the laity. Including me.

But I guess that's not important. The fault is clearly in us. We're at fault for not understanding the Church. It's just another symptom of the failure of catechetics, of course! Catholics should know better! They should be change themselves because the Church's practice is always right! They should eat steak instead of baby food!

Please.

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Last edited by Kardinal on 20 Nov 2012 15:59, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 15:57 
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Jim,

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The workbook explained the purpose of the reading (according to the Church) and what parts should be receive emphasis and what that emphasis should be.



That's what the rubrics in the Lectionary are for.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 15:58 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Jim,

Quote:
The workbook explained the purpose of the reading (according to the Church) and what parts should be receive emphasis and what that emphasis should be.



That's what the rubrics in the Lectionary are for.

I've seen nothing in the Lectionary to tell me which parts to emphasize and which to de-emphasize, nor what the emphasis should be.

I guess it's another way in which I am deficient.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:00 
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Jeff,

Quote:
And singing them is totally uninspiring, unengaging, and leads to less understanding among much of the laity.


It never has been when I've experienced it.

http://www.youfixittube.com/watch?v=g2PDTxQTE6E

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:01 
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Jeff,

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I've seen nothing in the Lectionary to tell me which parts to emphasize and which to de-emphasize, nor what the emphasis should be.




It's the bit written in red at the beginning of each reading.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:09 
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Never seen it. Guess we have a deficient Lectionary.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:11 
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Jeff,

Oops! I was forgetting North America has its own version of the Lectionary.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:14 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Jeff,

Quote:
And singing them is totally uninspiring, unengaging, and leads to less understanding among much of the laity.


It never has been when I've experienced it.

http://www.youfixittube.com/watch?v=g2PDTxQTE6E

So if we do not find that inspiring, engaging, and have superior understanding of Scripture from it as compared to proclaiming the Gospel in spoken form, I suspect the fault is in us? We are deficient somehow?

Just trying to be clear.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:16 
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Jeff,

Quote:
Just trying to be clear.


I find that difficult to believe.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:52 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Quote:
And singing them is totally uninspiring, unengaging, and leads to less understanding among much of the laity.
It never has been when I've experienced it.

http://www.youfixittube.com/watch?v=g2PDTxQTE6E

I guess whoever produced that video thought that reading along with it might be helpful.

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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 16:56 
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David,

Yep.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 14:34 
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James,

Quote:
You are very fortunate.


Well, I said our best lectors. We have some that aren't as good but none of them are into the problem you describe of dramatics for the sake of dramatics.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 14:42 
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Val wrote:
Quote:
You are very fortunate.


Well, I said our best lectors. We have some that aren't as good but none of them are into the problem you describe of dramatics for the sake of dramatics.

I think even those who indulge in dramatics probably have good motives. They are not doing it for "the sake of dramatics", they just want to bring the scriptures to life.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 15:01 
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LASaxman wrote:
Val wrote:
Quote:
You are very fortunate.
Well, I said our best lectors. We have some that aren't as good but none of them are into the problem you describe of dramatics for the sake of dramatics.
I think even those who indulge in dramatics probably have good motives. They are not doing it for "the sake of dramatics", they just want to bring the scriptures to life.

Indeed. And I tend to prefer them to the "reading out of the phone book" readers by a long shot.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 15:13 
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LASaxman wrote:
Val wrote:
Quote:
You are very fortunate.


Well, I said our best lectors. We have some that aren't as good but none of them are into the problem you describe of dramatics for the sake of dramatics.

I think even those who indulge in dramatics probably have good motives. They are not doing it for "the sake of dramatics", they just want to bring the scriptures to life.


Possibly, but there is a whole lot of emoting by a few of our readers, Bill Shakespeare would be proud.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 15:50 
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Bob A,

Quote:
Bill Shakespeare would be proud.


Will Shakespeare. Proud of them? I doubt it.

Quote:
Hamlet: Speak the speech I pray you as I pronounced it to you,
trippingly on the tongue; but if you mouth it as many of your players
do, I had as lief the town-crier spoke my lines. Nor do not saw the
air too much with your hand thus, but use all gently; for in the
very torrent, tempest, and, as I may say, whirlwind of your passion,
you must acquire and beget a temperance that may give it
smoothness. Oh, it offends me to the soul to hear a robustious
periwig-pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to very rags, to split
the ears of the groundlings, who for the most part are capable of
nothing but inexplicable dumb-shows and noise. I would have such
a fellow whipped for o'erdoing Termagant — it out-Herods Herod.
Pray you avoid it.
First Player: I warrant your honour.
Hamlet: Be not too tame neither, but let your own discretion be your
tutor. Suit the action to the word, the word to the action, with this
special observance, that you o'erstep not the modesty of nature. For
anything so o'erdone is from the purpose of playing, whose end both
at the first and now, was and is, to hold as 'twere, the mirror up
to nature; to show virtue her own feature, scorn her own image,
and the very age and body of the time his form and pressure. Now
this overdone, or come tardy off, though it make the unskilful
laugh, cannot but make the judicious grieve, the censure of the
which one must in your allowance o'erweigh a whole theatre of
others. Oh, there be players that I have seen play, and heard others
praise and that highly, not to speak it profanely, that neither having
the accent of Christians nor the gait of Christian, pagan, nor man,
have so strutted and bellowed that I have thought some of nature's
journeymen had made men, and not made them well, they imitated
humanity so abominably.
First Player: I hope we have reformed that indifferently with us, sir.
Hamlet: Oh reform it altogether. And let those that play your clowns
speak no more than is set down for them, for there be of them that
will themselves laugh, to set on some quantity of barren spectators
to laugh too, though in the meantime some necessary question of
the play be then to be considered. That's villainous, and shows
a most pitiful ambition in the fool that uses it. Go make you ready.


—Hamlet, (III.ii.1-36)




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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 15:53 
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David,

Quote:
I think even those who indulge in dramatics probably have good motives. They are not doing it for "the sake of dramatics", they just want to bring the scriptures to life.


I'm far from certain that they are infact well-intentioned; but even, for the sake of argument, allowing that they might be, does that justify it?

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 15:54 
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David L

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I think even those who indulge in dramatics probably have good motives. They are not doing it for "the sake of dramatics", they just want to bring the scriptures to life.


It may have been unjust for me to say that as I don't know the motives of each individual but I do know that there are many people who like attention and even though it may be unconscious, do the dramatics intent on drawing attention to themselves and not to the scripture but I'm not attributing that to any one person but just pointing out that a person of that type might be drawn to lectoring and not well supervised.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 16:00 
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Val,

We can never know another's motives. But it is both natural and proper that we draw inferences from our observations, based on our experience and knowledge.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 16:17 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Val,

We can never know another's motives. But it is both natural and proper that we draw inferences from our observations, based on our experience and knowledge.

As long as those inferences line up with what is traditional and what some people think is proper active participation.

Wow betide those who might infer that someone singing polyphony sing it for reasons other than the glory of God, for instance.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 16:28 
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Jeff,

I have my own inferences about those who would have the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated as though it were a revival meeting. Those opinions date back at least to the mid-1970s.

(You have knowledge and experience of those who sing polyphony such that you are in a position to draw reasonable inferences?)

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 16:34 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
I have my own inferences about those who would have the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated as though it were a revival meeting. Those opinions date back at least to the mid-1970s.

Do you have experience with them in the 1990's and 2000's such that safely conclude that they have the same problems as those from thirty years before? That is a major mistake I find many making in regards to contemporary church music. "It sounds like what the liberals did back in the 70's, so these people must suffer from the same theological errors and pushing the same agenda as that era."

Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
(You have knowledge and experience of those who sing polyphony such that you are in a position to draw reasonable inferences?)

This is not about me or my knowledge and experience. I am not qualified to infer the intentions of almost anyone. But if one even breathes of the possibility that any practice predating Vatican II might not be the best way to do everything, the response from some corners is condescending and arrogant. And goes far beyond "inference" and into "presumption".

They seem to think "mutual enrichment" goes in precisely one direction.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 16:42 
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Jeff,

I happen to be particularly fond of "contemporary church music". (But then, I've no doubt we don't mean the same thing by that.)

Naïvely, I had though the liturgy wars were over and won. Perhaps with the new arrangements at the CDW the few remaining pockets of resistance will soon be brought into line.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 17:09 
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The Langlais Te Deum makes a great Recessional:

http://www.youfixittube.com/watch?v=AAo6_ZWmr18


.
The Duruflé Requiem:

http://www.youfixittube.com/watch?v=JLZ ... re=related

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 19:31 
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In the two OF parishes and one FSSP parish we regularly attend the deacons ans priests read the gospel in an unemotional, almost monotone manner, the emphasis comes in the form of the homily. I would expect the lay readers to follow the lead of the clergy and not emphasize what they, the readers, think is important; what is a good practice for the clergy is certainly good enough for the lay readers. I also often find the readers substituting, omitting and misplacing words sometimes resulting in a totally different meaning than what was written; probably because they have not adequately "rehearsed" the reading prior to Mass.

I will continue to use my missal until such time an official prohibition is handed down from the proper authority; I don't ever expect such a prohibition so this entire argument is moot.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 20:50 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
The Langlais Te Deum makes a great Recessional:

What makes a 'great' recessional? Or maybe I should ask, why does that piece make a great recessional?

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 16:10 
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David,

An organ voluntary makes for an ideal recessional. But not any organ voluntary - Ride of the Valkyries would hardly do. I think most people (including me) would probably nominate the Widor Toccata as a favourite, but I wanted a contemporary example. By calling the Langlais "great" I simply meant that it is a magnificent work.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 16:29 
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Momentarily distracted by thoughts of this thread during the Thanksgiving Mass. One of the lectors is a female actress but no dramatics, just clear, crisp reading.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 16:47 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
David,

An organ voluntary makes for an ideal recessional. But not any organ voluntary - Ride of the Valkyries would hardly do. I think most people (including me) would probably nominate the Widor Toccata as a favourite, but I wanted a contemporary example. By calling the Langlais "great" I simply meant that it is a magnificent work.

But you didn't call it a great work, or a great piece of music, you called it a "great recessional". That implies that it has some unique qualities that make it especially well suited for that purpose.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 16:48 
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Val wrote:
Momentarily distracted by thoughts of this thread during the Thanksgiving Mass. One of the lectors is a female actress but no dramatics, just clear, crisp reading.

Monotone?

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 16:56 
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LASaxman wrote:
Val wrote:
Momentarily distracted by thoughts of this thread during the Thanksgiving Mass. One of the lectors is a female actress but no dramatics, just clear, crisp reading.

Monotone?

I think there's a happy medium between monotone and unnecessary theatrics. I'm going to work on hitting that happy medium.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 18:03 
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David,

Quote:
...it has some unique qualities that make it especially well suited for that purpose.


* It should be appropriate for a liturgical setting (ie solemn and dignified);
* It should possess a high degree of objective aesthetic merit.

Wagner would be disqualified on the first ground. Henry Mancini's Baby Elephant Walk would be disqualified on both grounds. Mendelssohn's Wedding March is a great recessional for a wedding, but would prompt chuckles, if not howls of laughter, at a Sunday Mass.

Langlais' organ Te Deum satisfies both to a very high degree (as does the Widor).

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 18:08 
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David L,

Quote:
Monotone?


No, I don't believe it should be read in monotone. Like Jeff said, there is a happy medium and I think the two lectors (the male is one of our best and a good friend, he really practices it the day before) did very well in reaching that medium. There are natural emphasis points, particularly when the priest reads the gospel, Jesus didn't speak in a monotone and the priest is proclaiming Christ's word.

I think the Dominican priest who just finished our pre-advent mission would disagree with the monotone idea as well. He reads it passionately, and speaks passionately in his homilies but again, not theatrical.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 18:48 
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Val wrote:
...Jesus didn't speak in a monotone...

I don't think we will ever know about that.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 18:55 
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David,

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I don't think we will ever know about that.


I hope that one day I will know.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 20:46 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
David,

Quote:
I don't think we will ever know about that.


I hope that one day I will know.

Do you think that those in Heaven speak earthly languages? I kind of doubt it. Why would they? Why would they have the need to use such imperfect means of communication?

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 22:34 
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David L,

Well, being semitic and considering some of the things he was expressing, it's pretty hard to imagine that he was speaking in a monotone. Did he speak in a monotone to the money changers? Did he call pharisees hypocrites in a monotone? I guess you're right that we have no absolute proof but I'm sticking with my statement. I don't think God came to earth to speak in a monotone.

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 15:49 
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David,

Quote:
Do you think that those in Heaven speak earthly languages?


I really don't know. I'm not sure what a disembodied soul might do... or how. But I do believe resurrected human persons will use language. Language is a defining characteristic of what it is to be human. Why, in our resurrected state, would we shun something as wonderful as language?

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 15:51 
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Val,

I'm sure Christ spoke as a normal human of His place and time. What has that to do with the correct manner of declamation of liturgical texts?

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