Catholic Online Forum

I was recently in a dispute with a priest about divorced/remarried (without a declaration of nullity) Catholics being able to receive Holy Communion. During a homily, I (and a number of others who were paying attention) heard this priest state that those who are divorced and remarried should not bar themselves from the sacraments. I met with the priest privately, where he denied making such a statement, but then he went on to ask me if I knew of the internal forum and also of some term I thought he pronounced "ekonoia" or something like that.

Now, I understand what the internal forum is. Say a man or woman divorces his/her spouse and then remarries without obtaining a decree of nullity for the first marriage, and children result from the second "marriage." The first marriage is found valid, which leaves the person unable to receive Holy Communion unless he/she separates from the second "spouse." Yet, for the good of the children, the couple cannot separate. The Church allows for an internal forum solution, where, as long as the couple can remain together without causing scandal (i.e. their prior marriages are not known among the community) AND they do not engage in sexual intercourse, they may with the pastor's permission remain together and receive Holy Communion.

However, this priest mentioned that other term, "ekonoia." I'm not sure at all about the spelling. In fact, it's probably wrong, since I cannot find anything in Google on it (or, perhaps he made up the term to snow me). He claims it means "mercy." He didn't go into it any further, but I was kind of left hanging, thinking that he was implying it meant "when all else fails" the couple can remain together, have marital relations, and receive Holy Communion, because "God is a merciful God."

I had never heard the term used in my marriage law class at the seminary. Has anyone heard of this term before, whatever its spelling, or this concept of mercy? If so, what does it mean in practical terms for divorced/remarried Catholics? I don't believe, if it exists, that it means what the priest seemed to imply that it meant.

Thanks.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

The Greek for mercy is ἔλεος. It can also be translated as compassion.



I have never known the word to be used in the context of seeking feebly to defend an irregular marriage.

(BTW, In the case of an internal forum solution the couple will often be encouraged to receive Holy Communion in a parish other than the one in which they reside. This minimises any risk of giving rise to scandal.)

Perhaps ἑκοντί (willingness) was intended?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Dean,

I think I know what he's talking about but have no idea what the proper term is. I would suggest talking to someone who is an expert in sacramental theology, especially confession. I would give you more information but can't remember the details well enough to be able to give you a reliable answer.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

He meant economia or, more properly, oeconomia. Effie, that will ring bells for you. It's an Eastern Christian term and to dumb down a lot means bending the rules in the interests of leading people a bit more gently towards Christ. The Eastern Churches allow more discretion on the part of individual confessors. However, since the measure is always temporary (except where the EO allow remarriage for good of family) and exceptional, I suspect someone was abusing the term.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Dean: Here is a pretty good summary: (insert http bit, no www) csc.ceceurope.org/fileadmin/filer/csc/Ethics_Biotechnology/CSCEconomia.pdf

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Thank you, Jules. I notice that this is from an Eastern Orthodox Church. Is this concept recognized by Rome?

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

No, although some argue that it should be. Lawler has written in favor of it; without launching an ad hominem attack, that should tell you something...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Moderator's Notice:

A post was removed from this thread because it consisted of personal opinion in an area of the forum that deals with what is Church doctrine and law.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

Here is a referenced discussion on the topic by Msgr. Clarence J. Hettinger that should answer some questions.

"CREATIVE" AVENUES TO REMARRIAGE AFTER DIVORCE

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Larry,

What about a situation where a bishop relaxes a rule during a disaster in order to help the people. I seem to recall a situation where a bishop allowed Mass to be said on Good Friday in order to help people who were dealing with a huge disaster. I can't remember which disaster and my memory might be a bit foggy on that example. During WWII bishops (at the direction of the pope) were allowing Jews to hide in cloistered monasteries - even though the rule was that no one on the outside was ever allowed it. That was a definite relaxation of the rules.

Would those types of situations be considered economia?

Effie

PS. I have read Lawler, and yes, that tells me a lot.

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

thanks Jules


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

I thought that one of the Vatican Offices ruled several years ago that the internal forum is not applicable to marriage since marriage is an external matter. I think it was in response to some German bishops who had pushed the internal forum. I don't remember any of the details.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Joe,

IIRC, the German bishops had advanced the idea of Holy Communion for divorced and remarried Catholics who were not practicing perfect continence. That was what the Holy See rejected.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

The closest Latin concept would be dispensation, I think, but the connotations are a bit different. I think you'll find the EO concept chez the EC.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Thanks - Joe

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Dean,

It would appear you agree with the Internal Forum Solution. Did you learn about this in marriage law class and if so can you reference the Canon Law applicable?

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Wow. Really? Where are you getting that? I'm not seeing that in Dean's posts at all -- rather, I'm seeing that he's trying to bend over backwards and giving his pastor the benefit of the doubt, but not seeing how that's possible in this regard...

Anyway, the quote you provided isn't referencing 'internal forum solution', but 'ekonomia'. See Dean's original post...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

I might be inclined to agree with Jules -- that would sound more like a 'dispensation' than a 'relaxation', per se.



But, in these kinds of cases, we're talking about temporary 'relaxations of the rules', not permanent ones, right? A single Mass, not a permanent change to the practice of Good Friday... a relaxation of 'cloister' during war, but not a permanent status change.

The whole notion of ekonomia, with respect to marriage, is a permanent relaxation of the rules -- an exception, as it were, based on the imperfection of the human state. That isn't something that's part of the Latin tradition.



Perhaps they might. But, that kind of pastoral sensitivity hasn't been extended to considerations of the permanence of marriage, in the Latin tradition...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

I am assuming that since the issue was brought up separately yet not being questioned like 'ekonomia' is that it was a non issue. Maybe, I miss something in reading and it can be assumed that BOTH 'ekonomia' and 'internal forum solution' are being discussed as one and the same in this discussion?

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I think someone posited that the internal forum solution could be classed as one application of 'oeconomia.' I personally was steering clear of the specifics and just trying to shed light on the concept. It's a question of 'are the canons rules or guidelines?'

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Daniel,



They are NOT one and the same!

Read very carefully.

The question is on economia, with which I do not agree at all. Economia is not something that was taught in marriage law.

Internal forum, on the other hand, was taught in marriage law. Since it was taught in marriage law by the man who is second in authority in the diocese, in a seminary where I spent 10 years listening intently for teachings that would contradict what I already knew of the faith, where all instructors were required to sign the declaration of fidelity, and since it is widely taught by other dioceses I consider to have orthodox bishops (such as Denver) it is a concept I accept in principle, as long as the requirements are clearly spelled out: no scandal, perfect continence, staying together for the good of the children. It is a reasonable concept. Allow a man and woman to continue living together as brother and sister for the greater good of their children.

I do not accept how internal forum may be implemented among the clergy who already are not faithful to many of the Church's moral teachings. Whether they willfully bend the rules to suit their notions of marriage or they are not intelligent enough to understand the requirements, I don't know. But their infidelity and/or the infidelity of the couple to the requirements is not the fault of internal forum, just as Catholics who present themselves for Holy Communion when they are conscious of being in grave sin is not the fault of the Canon that says they may not present themselves.

I do not have a cite in Canon Law, nor do I have time to research the Internal Forum solution and its origins. The fact that it is published widely across dioceses, even if we don't know how often it is used, is enough for me to accept. And Canon Law is not all-inclusive.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Here is a discussion on the topic that you may have discussed in class:

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II TO THE TRIBUNAL OF THE ROMAN ROTA
10 February 1995

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,

I'm not sure what you are attempting to have this address say with regard to the "internal forum." However, it's not an argument against the arrangement described above.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

I do not doubt what you were taught in law class; nor do I doubt that such is published, nor that such is done.

Considering the only requirements being no sex and no scandal in regards to an internal forum solution I am just trying to understand what errors the address was addressing and what was done if anything to correct such errors?

Maybe there was scandal allowed before 1995 and now it is not? Maybe sex was allowed before 1995 and now it is not? If not one of those two, then apparently there are some other legal requirements not written in the Code that I am not aware of -maybe someone can add to this discussion to clarify.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,

"Internal forum" I suspect is a term used to refer to more than just the "internal forum" to which I am referring in this discussion. I suspect in the context of the Pope's address, "internal forum" is being equated with conscience, and "conscience" is being abused by some to "excuse away" a judgment of validity of a first marriage, so that enough divorced/remarried Catholics are being told it's ok to approach for Holy Communion that the Pope needed to address the Roman Rota on this. The Pope is reiterating that conscience does not setup what is right and wrong and cannot be used to change/ignore/overrule authoritative interpretation and judgment. At least that's my conclusion from a cursory skim of the Pope's address.

There is no doubt that the Church's mercy and utmost concern for the salvation of all is taken to lengths never intended by the Church by the willfully disobedient and the ignorant. The existence of abuse does not delegitimize the thing being abused, however.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

<stifles it>

<covers mouth with hand>

<won't say it. WILL NOT SAY IT>

I agree, Dean. I'll leave it at that.

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Jeff Stevens

Since presumption is validity I would say that in all cases save those declared null that one must presume validity.

However, it would appear that maybe privately as you infer, the internal forum was being abused by some to "excuse away" the presumption.

As an aside, it would be nice if there was an internal forum solution where the question of validity could be decided without a civil divorce requirement first. It would seem that in this instance compassion seems to lean toward the divorce mentality.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I agree; however, I am sure that you would concede that it is quite difficult to determine abuse when the abuse is being done in private and as well that being abused seems quite vague in definition.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Absolutely it is difficult to determine who is disregarding the conditions of the internal forum as it regards divorced/"remarried" couples, just as it is not possible for the Church to identify private adulterers, fornicators, those who engage secretly in homosexual acts, masturbators, and those who use contraception. Ultimately membership in the Church and obedience to moral law is voluntary. The Church cannot force anyone to give public, let alone private, homage to the commandments and laws. Therefore, her pastors must at least clearly proclaim the truth, so that her members cannot claim ignorance.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu