Catholic Online Forum

The Immaculate Conception falls on a Saturday. At my parish on Saturdays there is only ever one Mass, and it's a 6.30 pm Vigil Mass for Sunday.
I asked Father about it tonight after the Advent Vigil Mass, and he asked me if it was a Holy Day of Obligation, and I said I thought so. At first he said I could go over to the Sisters (at the crack of dawn probably). Then he said he would check and make an announcement tomorrow, on Sunday. I didn't want to say, "But, Father, I've just come to the Vigil Mass, I'm not coming tomorrow."

So what are the options? That he will make Friday the 7th at 6.30 pm be a Vigil Mass for the Immaculate Conception? That he would add a Mass on the 8th?
Make the 6.30 pm Mass on Saturday be for the Immaculate Conception? (I really don't want to go Mass at the crack of dawn, so I hope he comes up with something).

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Different countries have different Holy days of Obligation (BTW, I find it very strange your priest doesn't know). In my diocese and probably in many others across the US, when a Holy Day falls on a weekend or Friday or Monday, we are not obligated to go to a separate Holy Day Mass but instead they move it to Sunday (which of course would mean the Vigil Mass would "count") and if I'm not mistaken, they then use the Holy Day prayers, etc.

We are very blessed to have two daily Masses, one at 7:30am an one at noon so at those Masses, they use the prayers for the Holy Day (I'm pretty sure and feel like there is something else I should be saying instead of "prayers" but I can't think of it...basically what would be in the Missal for that Holy Day). I hate that they do that in order to make it "convenient" for people. I realize that people work and may not be able to attend a Holy Day Mass if it's held in the morning but in that case, they should have an extra Mass in the evening. At our church, if the Holy Day is in the middle of the week then there will be a vigil Mass the day before (and confessions will be heard on the previous day as well) and then the two daily Masses which will be the full Holy Day Mass and then a Mass at 7:30pm. I realize our priests work very hard all year long and a priest with no other priests to help shouldn't have to say three Masses but they could say two on those occasional days. I hate saying that because it sounds so demanding and I don't mean it to sound that way. I guess because I know a priest who recently celebrated three Masses in a row at his parish and then immediately got in the car to LAX to make an international trip. Our parish just about always has visiting priests to cover and right now there are three priests assigned to the parish but I believe those days are gone when one of the associates leaves next May so we are luckier than most and I wouldn't expect a priest who simply can't celebrate an extra Mass to do so.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Grace,

It does depend where you are - e.g. it's not a day of obligation in England and Wales since we have an indult because we're not in a Catholic country. Even if it were, the Sat pm would cover you even if it's the 'wrong' Mass or you may ask your confessor for dispensation.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Grace,

If your parish priest is celebrating a Mass on the evening of the 7th, I would presume he will use the Vigil Mass of the Immaculate Conception.

As for it being a Holy Day of Obligation, there is a list by country here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_day_o ... by_country

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I remembered that I have a list of the Holy Days of Obligation that I got from the priest 3 priests ago, and the Immaculate Conception is on it.
So that means I should go to the Friday Vigil Mass, right, since nothing can take precedence over the Saturday Vigil Mass being celebrated for Sunday?
I doubt that he would add a new Mass. It seems never to have been done in the past and so then nobody would come, especially given the lack of e-communication.

Val, yes, it does seem odd, but to be fair to him, he is a new priest (I believe we are his first parish) and he is basically alone and he is not from this part of the world.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace and All,

The Solemnity is a universal day of obligation, but the obligation may be pushed to Sunday. See the Canon Law below.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Grace,

I believe the area you are in is pushed to Sunday, but call and check with your priest. If I am correct, your Saturday covers it.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Grace,

Well, it didn't get pushed to Sunday this year. I wonder if Archbishop Gomez ordered that, I'm pretty sure it's always been pushed to Sunday when close to the weekend. We are having a Vigil Mass on Friday and the usual 7:30am Mass on Saturday but an extra 12:00 Mass as well. It's not the usual Holy Day schedule, but then there can't be evening Masses on Saturday like there would be on a weekday Holy Day. It's first Friday and we always have confessions on the Thursday when it's a first Friday and there is normally exposition of the Blessed Sacrament ending with Benediction at 5:00...I don't know if they'll still do the exposition when it won't be possible to do benediction. I'll probably go to the 5:00 vigil on Friday.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Grace,

If Saturday is a day of obligation for you (it varies by country; in the U.S., it is a day of obligation), then you can satisfy that obligation by either attending a Friday evening Mass or a Saturday Mass during the day or even a vigil Mass for Sunday on Saturday evening, even if the vigil Mass for the Second Sunday of Advent is using the readings for Sunday and not the readings for the Immaculate Conception. However, the vigil Mass for Sunday will not satisfy as a "two-fer," meaning that, if you go to that Mass, it won't satisfy both the obligation for Immaculate Conception and the obligation for the Second Sunday of Advent. You would have to go to another Mass to satisfy your Sunday obligation. There are two obligations this coming weekend (at least in the U.S.), and therefore you must attend two Masses.

Dr. Ed Peters (a very well-respected cannonist) just happened to write on this subject on his blog today.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Maybe I'm dense, but I find Dr. Peter's explanation very confusing. I'm going to attend Saturday morning and Sunday morning.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Andrew,

Basically, he is arguing that you have 2 obligations and therefore must attend 2 Masses. However, it is wrong to say that you must attend a Mass with the "correct" readings for the obligation in order to satisfy that obligation. Whether or not the obligations are satisfied depends on when and how often you go to Mass this weekend.

Dr. Peters distinguishes between the canonical obligation on people to attend Mass with the liturgical obligation on priests to celebrate the Mass called for by the rubrics.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Thanks Dean, that is a little clearer.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Incidentally, I do not believe that the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception is EVER moved in the United States. It is one of the two or three immovable solemnities. I may be mistaken in that regard, and cannot find a reference for which ones are and are not moveable based on their proximity to Sunday.

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Jeff Stevens

Next year it falls on a Sunday; does that mean we have to attend Mass twice in one day?

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Jeff,

I believe you are right. This is perhaps due to the fact that it is our national feast day and patron saint.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

According to my 2013 calendar [from Catholic Answers] it will be moved to Monday, and not a day of obligation. As I recall the Sundays of Advent and Lent have priority over everything else.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

That is true. They have precedence even over Solemnities of the Lord, if any fall during that time.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Jeff,



Maybe you're right and that's why I was wrong about it being moved for us. I was just going by knowing that our Holy Days are moved all the time. In any case, I'm glad because I love the Marian songs...stupid reason to look forward to it but I admit it's a factor.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,

It's not stupid at all. The Marian songs are among the most beautiful in our liturgy.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Finally. Yesterday Father said that there will be a Mass at 10.00 a.m. Saturday for The Immaculate Conception.
I doubt many people will know about it, though, as we have a website that never changes.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

We were told that attending the vigil Mass for Sunday did not also cover the Holy Day of Obligation requirement for Saturday. We have a vigil Mass tonight, Friday, for the Saturday Obligation for those who cannot make it on Saturday.

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BobA

That is correct. I emphasized above the important word in your statement. That is, there is no "twofer" opportunity, according to the USCCB and most canonists. While you may apply a Saturday evening Mass to your obligation for the Immaculate Conception, even though the readings and propers for the Second Sunday of Advent will be used, it may not count for both obligations. If you go to Saturday evening Mass and intend that to satisfy your obligation for the Immaculate Conception, you must to go to another Mass later on Saturday or on Sunday to satisfy your Sunday obligation.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean:

I have found the USCCB legislation stating that Immaculate Conception is always a holy day of obligation, no matter what, but I have found no reference from the USCCB that an evening Mass on Saturday cannot fulfill both obligations.

And for Dr. Peters to admit that the question is disputed among canonists is a pretty good give away that the question is actually not settled among bishops, because if it was then the canonists would just quote from the National Conference, who in turn must receive Vatican approval for giving such an interpretation of the law.

In order for your opinion, and that of Dr. Peters, to be correct, the Church would have the obligation, in a matter so grave that it binds under pain of mortal sin, to publish a clear directive that on Saturday, the precept of Immaculate Conception must be fulfilled before 4pm, or else the Mass which you attend will be that of Sunday. And if you attend an evening Mass which is for Sunday, you still have to come back the next day and hear all the Sunday scriptures and prayers, and the same homily, all over again, since the evening Mass was a Sunday Mass, but only fulfilled your precept for Immaculate Conception, but not Sunday, even though it was celebrated as a Sunday Mass.

I am 100% with Fr. Z on this: canon law simply states that you can fulfill a holy day precept from the evening before (4pm technically) until midnight of the day itself. That means that a Saturday evening Mass actually fulfills both a Saturday and a Sunday precept. You may resent the Church letting those Vigil folks get a twofer, but that is how the law is written, and Dr. Peters is right to point out that such goes against the spirit of the law (getting a twofer) but he makes a poor case that the letter of the law obliges according to his interpretation.

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

Fr. Sotelo,



I actually resent no one getting a twofer, because I regard obligations as opportunities, not as onerous burdens to be grudgingly accepted and heaped upon the backs of others, and, if you saw my schedule for this weekend with the kids and getting everyone to Mass around practices, school dances, and basketball games, you might see that I would not mind at all if I could legally get a twofer for myself and my family. I actually had to write the Athletic Director and Msgr. of the parish where my children attend school, pointing out the conflicts between Masses and basketball games / practices / dances, of which they were not yet aware. As a direct result of my email (I suggested they cancel practices altogether tonight as a tip of the hat to the feast day), they instead added another Mass to the schedule and rearranged practices to provide more opportunity for parish school families to get to Mass for the feast day and get their kids to practices, games, and the school Christmas dance.

Regarding my opinion, it derives from Dr. Peters, and Fr. Z's disagreement but acceptance (from his blog earlier this week; I don't know if he has changed his mind since), and from what was released to us in November from our own archdiocesan office (and which all parishes in our diocese are conforming to):



Now that I read the above again, it seems to intertwine/confuse canon and liturgical law. But it is from my bishop. And so my family will go with the spirit of the law, which seems clear, rather than the letter of the law, which seems to have multiple interpretations, without keeping track of what anyone else does.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

Very sincere apologies. It often happens that in writing a response to someone, part of my response is addressed to them and then my mind sort of wanders into general musings.

So when I said, "You may resent the Church letting those Vigil folks....." that comment was not to you, but a general musing on the subject. It should be read, "one (anyone in general, not Dean in particular) might resent the Church letting those Vigil folks" and even then the comment is tongue in cheek, as I don't picture anymore being resentful about this matter, just curious.

Although Fr. Z is very respectful of Dr. Peters, as am I, he still appears to part ways with him on this question:



http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/12/wherein-fr-z-shows-provocatively-that-dr-peters-agrees-with-fr-z-after-all-in-the-matter-of-one-mass-for-back-to-back-holy-days-of-obligation/

The term "auctores scinduntur" means the weighty authors out there are divided or split on the matter, so there is no definitive conclusion to be reached against what I am saying. The opinions of the USCCB committee on liturgy are interesting, but carry no binding authority as an interpreter of Canon Law. For that matter, neither does the USCCB without the recognition of the Vatican attached. A bishop can dispense. But he cannot obligate you to further precept beyond that which is spelled out in papal legislation.

I have told my parishioners that they may attend the Saturday evening Mass and count that for both Immaculate Conception and the 2nd Sunday of Advent, without qualm of conscience.

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

Fr. Angel,

Ah, I see. I had not read Fr. Z's later blog entry. I was referring to this one from earlier on Thursday.



And thank you for your clarification regarding resentment.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

See Wherein Fr. Z concedes about the “one Mass for two obligations” theory

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Moderator's Note:

I edited the immediately previous post to include all of the quote from Fr. Z within the quote box. Fr. Z is the one relaying the anecdote, not Joe.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Thanks Dean. Don't know whether it is age or just the eyes that I missed that.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Joe,

Cardinal Burke would be looking at this issue from a pastoral point of view, not just legal. From the strictly legal point of view, Fr. Z is still correct, even though he defers with respect to Cardinal Burke.

Canon Law states that you can fulfill a holy day of obligation on the day itself, or on the evening before the day. That is the law, the whole law, and nothing but the law. So help me God. That would mean that a Mass on Saturday the 8th would both fulfill the "requirement" for the 8th as a Holy Day and for fulfilling our legal requirement for Sunday.

However, is that what we are about? Are we a religion of legal requirements? Is being Catholic and praying at Mass just a matter of getting there when you have to, and putting in your time?

If we follow just the letter of the law, what are we saying? More so, what are we encouraging? We are encouraging people, in effect, to not* attend the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. We are encouraging them not* to highlight this mystery of Faith and invoke the intercession of our National Patron Saint.

Because although the evening Mass of the 8th still fulfills the legal precept, the letter of the law, it is no longer a Mass of Our Lady. It is a Mass of Advent. And this was, I believe, the concern of Cardinal Burke. Yes, you can get away with going just to a Saturday evening Mass. You can "get away with it." You can fulfill the black and white letter of the law. Technically, you're not in mortal sin.

Cardinal Burke is saying, I believe, "Good for you for knowing how to use the rule book for your convenience. But the purpose of Canon Law is to guide you in properly living out the Catholic life, and becoming holy, and saving your soul. So something can actually be legally allowable, but pastorally and spiritually wrong."

And in that sense, I agree with him wholeheartedly. But some people are just wanting to follow the letter. And if we are going to be honest, 100% honest, the law as it is written right now allows you to "get away" with one Mass, if what you are into is "getting away" with stuff.

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

Well, we do have a lot of legal requirements. Is following the "spirit of the law" a good excuse for not following the "letter of the law" (i.e., fulfilling a legal obligation)? I think not.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

This is a case where the letter of the law is such a minimum of effort that it is not spiritually beneficial to refer to it. That is Cardinal Burke's point in this case of holy days. He is saying, "Stop asking about the letter of the law and just go to Mass twice." And he is right.

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Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

I agree with Cardinal Burke's advice, that the letter of the law should not be our objective. I often quite a similar principle when the question "How much of Mass do I have to attend in order to fulfill my obligation?" Why are we seeking to do the minimum?

A related question, perhaps. But it had a practical impact for my parish today. How much "attention" at Mass is necessary to fulfill one's obligation? If one is in the narthex supervising something while participating in the mass, does it fulfill one's obligation? How much of a "job", such as head usher, can one do while attending Mass? What principles inform such a distinction?

I'm not trying to weasel out of an obligation. I'm using the question to explore the principles at work.

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Jeff Stevens