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 Post subject: Rioting in the Streets
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 19:12 
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Years ago, probably 1993 or 1994, I worked in a lab in Houston. Our accountant used to listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio and one day she was very agitated about something that had been said.

Apparantly some Democrat (of the caliber of Kennedy or Biden) had said that entitlement programs couldn't be decreased. If they took that money away, the poor people would riot in the streets.

Rush had immediately pointed out that the government regularly takes money away from the middle class. What would happen when they started rioting in the streets? The more we hear about things like this Arizona shooting, the more I think we're learning the answer.

This is not a Catholic response to anything, obviously. A Catholic in good conscience wouldn't buy a Glock and shoot at people because he was disheartened by his government. But after years of policies, laws, and behaviors that belittle the part of each of us that's made in God's image, it's easy to see how such things can become more and more common.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 20:22 
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During that time frame I was driving a truck to put bread on the table. One day my wife asks me why I was so angry all the time. I looked at what was different in my life and decided it was Rush Limbaugh and other Conservative Radio talk shows. I no longer listen to any of those shows.

I make no secret of the fact that I am a political conservative, but I came to realize that those Radio shows simply agitate the fringe elements anyone who is unstable is likely to react unpleasantly.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 20:49 
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I agree with that statement, but some of those people are capable of working themselves up without any help from others. I suspect most of us know someone who could be the host of one of those talk shows, from whichever point of view they espouse. My husband listens to those shows, but mostly they amuse him. Some nights he's irritable although he claims it was a good work day. I should ask what they were talking about on the radio when he was driving home.

As long as people kept to the belief systems that taught them to obey things like the ten commandments, there was no problem. I think we've reached a generation for whom such things are irrelevant. The Weather Underground said they wanted "to destroy everything good about Honky America." I wonder if they're pleased with their work, now. If murdering babies is allowed, why not the murder of other people? For whatever reason, that boy in Arizona found either the Congresswoman or the Judge or maybe other people in general to be an impediment to the life he wanted, so he shot them. I wonder what they'll be saying on talk radio tomorrow.

Of particular interest to me is the fact that his educators apparantly saw a pattern of behavior develop over the past few months, but it's unclear if he and his parents tried to get counselling or anything. That information will probably be withheld as confidential or private evidence or something.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 20:57 
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Rose West wrote:
This is not a Catholic response to anything, obviously. A Catholic in good conscience wouldn't buy a Glock and shoot at people because he was disheartened by his government. But after years of policies, laws, and behaviors that belittle the part of each of us that's made in God's image, it's easy to see how such things can become more and more common.

It's not easy for me to see, Rose. Civilized, stable people in a democracy where the vote is the way we express our dissatisfaction with elected officials and governmental policy would never, ever resort to this kind of heinous viciousness.

These kind of things happen when supposedly reasonable people, indeed, even would-be leaders use violent rhetoric and personal disparagement toward their political adversaries. Then the loonies, right, left and apolitical come out of their rat holes and perpetrate an unthinkable act of violence.

What makes me sad is that people on both the left and right are already starting to blame their adversaries for this senseless, senseless tragedy.

Like that Arizona sheriff, I am sick of the divisiveness and hatefulness that have stolen reasonable political debate in this country.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 21:11 
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Some people are making fools of themselves more than usual -with this tragedy being a catalyst for exposing what was already there -it comes out from behind the facade for all to see.

The division is being made more clearly evident...

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 21:30 
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What makes people what you call "stable?"

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 22:17 
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BobC wrote:
During that time frame I was driving a truck to put bread on the table. One day my wife asks me why I was so angry all the time. I looked at what was different in my life and decided it was Rush Limbaugh and other Conservative Radio talk shows. I no longer listen to any of those shows.

Quote:
I make no secret of the fact that I am a political conservative, but I came to realize that those Radio shows simply agitate the fringe elements anyone who is unstable is likely to react unpleasantly.[/
quote]

I agree Bob, I know someonw who listens to Rush every day and is always angry at the Democrats for which every thing which isn't perfect must be O'Bamas fault and the Democrats. I think many people who voted for O'bama regret that now that they see what he is all about but it can never be one person or one party's entire fault. The Rush show gives people a "Rush" alright. Some people drink energy drinks some listen to Rush. I am not saying that he doesn't tell the truth, its just that he tells it in a "rabble rousing" fashion. I don't often listen to him. I am not complacent yet I try not to let someone steal my serenity over something for which I have no control.

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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2011 22:33 
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Rose West wrote:
What makes people what you call "stable?"

What I said above...

"Civilized, stable people in a democracy where the vote is the way we express our dissatisfaction with elected officials and governmental policy would never, ever resort to this kind of heinous viciousness."

When people rant and rave rather than dialogue (and use a rifle sight to identify a political opponent as a "target") and call names rather than calmly discuss records are not acting in a civilized, stable manner, in my opinion.

They exist on both ends of the spectrum but those out on the far left or right fringe only see the ones on the other end, never on their side.

The hate and vitriol with which we in this nation seemed to have replaced vigorous but honest and dignified debate is what can lead to more horrible actions by deranged people who see themselves as answering the call.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 04:39 
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Rose West wrote:
But after years of policies, laws, and behaviors that belittle the part of each of us that's made in God's image, it's easy to see how such things can become more and more common.


I don't think many people are lealizing that the shooter is a victim also if he is mentally ill.
Mental illness is disabling. People do things they woud not otherwise do. What is especially disturbing is that all the signs were there before this tragedy. Some people are marginal. Others are clearly in need of help.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 05:11 
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And then there are guys like Timothy McVeigh. Cool, calm, rational and no problem with collateral damage in his crusade against big government. Two trageties but two very different perpetrators.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 08:40 
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Well, Pete,

The mental illness angle is particularly worrisome, too. So far there's no indication that this person sought counselling, although his school seemed to think he was. On the other hand, there are several indications that he carefully planned what he was going to do.

Then again, careful planning and mental illness are not mutually exclusive.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 09:43 
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Some nights he's irritable although he claims it was a good work day. I should ask what they were talking about on the radio when he was driving home.


It couldn't hurt. I was surprised when I realized how angry it made me.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 09:59 
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I think perhaps it is quite natural when such a tragedy strikes that people seek for reasonable explanations; they look for facts which help to understand why it happened. And its also quite natural, when in possession of those facts, to seek preventative remedies, to mend or modify our society so that something similar can't happen again in the same way. That said, I think it's rather unfortunate and divisive to conclude political speech, political parties, political associations, or political figures actually contributed to and are associated with or in some way caused what happened.

And very unfortunate to civil society, immediately after this tragedy occurred, the accusations and associations started flying. Without any factual information surrounding the event, national news organizations and blogs, as they have done previously, immediately associated the killer with the Tea Party movement, Republicans, campaign rhetoric, talk radio hosts, health care reform, and more specifically, Sarah Palin. To do so in a completely speculative way, without any supporting information whatsoever is, from my perspective, a sinful, unfounded accusation which actually contributes to and is the angry, vehement, spiteful, vitriol decried. Its a grave accusation of accomplice to murder and it was levied while people were still being transported to the hospital from the scene with no specific information on the background of the killer.

But its even worse now. As the facts began to come in we learned from reports the killer is, first and foremost, severely mentally disturbed, to the extent that he was suspended from a college and banned from campus where students feared for their lives due to his presence in their class (seeing him as the sort who would show up one day with an automatic weapon) and was served the suspension by campus police in person at his home, not by mail, after repeated unusual and disconcerting behavior. We also learned he was, in high school, and probably afterward, a habitual drug user whose friends then said they smoked pot daily, and at one point, the killer drank so much alcohol during recess when he got back to class he passed out at his desk and was rushed to the hospital for alcohol poisoning and nearly died. We learned that his friends described him as a radical liberal, but also as a deeply disturbed individual. We learned he rejected religion as a form of mind control and was obsessed with the concept as well as brainwashing, language and grammar, and utterly nonsensical syllogisms in which he apparently gleaned some perverse wisdom. Then we learned today he had erected an apparently Satanic or pagan shrine in his backyard, so his rejection of religion seems to mean he rejected God, but not all religion. We also learned that he had received a letter, in 2007, from the Congresswoman's office, thanking him for attending an event just like the one at which he killed and wounded so many people and had prior contact with her at other political events and was obsessed with the literacy rate in his Congressional district. We also learned he has multiple arrests but on each occasion he participated in a program which allowed the charges to be dropped and he served no time in jail. And we now learn from investigators that they have found no link to any organization, but that the killer acted alone in his insanity.

To continue to draw a connection between this killer and how sane people engage in American politics and public policy is even worse now than when we had no information at all about him. The emerging profile is not one of a man, whether delusional or not, who was driven by the political rallying cry or the political mobilization or the political speech of any political group or organization, but rather that of a madman who publicly and frequently exhibited the behavior and characteristics of a severely deranged and irrational individual, who could not be characterized as in any way being aligned with reality, let alone a given particular political philosophy.

Now I realize a bit under half of the country is not at all enamored by conservative political beliefs and may be prone to draw certain conclusions (at first without facts, and later, despite contradictory evidence) and will see an underlying cause or the opportunity to discuss the polemic, political polarization of the nation, and wish it were not so - that we all could just be more civil and get along better, and from their perspective of course, it is the challenger to their political beliefs that needs to modify their behavior, as the Tuscon, AZ sheriff stated, 'there's one side just trying to do good by America and get things done, and there's this other side that just wants to stop them...'

Now on the other side the complimentary argument that is not being made but easily could be is that: if it were not for one side in the debate abusing their authority, and violating the Constitution, and ramming through measures which clearly are in direct opposition to the desires of the majority of the American people, by bankrupting the nation with added entitlements, by promoting and protecting legal abortion, gay marriage, etc., and not permitting the minority party to provide amendments for up or down votes, or advance alternative legislation, or work in a truly bipartisan fashion, the nation would be more at ease and congenial in its politics...

I wholly reject the foregone conclusion of some that the political activity of sane adults addressing valid concerns in earnest - legally, passionately, and legitimately through the process should in any way be rightly associated with this tragedy.

Pax et bonum

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 11:27 
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Rose West wrote:
Well, Pete,

The mental illness angle is particularly worrisome, too. So far there's no indication that this person sought counselling, although his school seemed to think he was. On the other hand, there are several indications that he carefully planned what he was going to do.

Then again, careful planning and mental illness are not mutually exclusive.
Somewhere Chesterton notes that it is erroneous to say that a mentally ill person has lost his reason. It is the one thing he hasn't lost. Based on what he accepts as facts his conclusions are perfectly reasonable; it is his basic assumptions that are wrong.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 11:32 
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Here is another politician advocating violence: Obama: ‘If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun’

Quote:
Mobster wisdom tells us never to bring a knife to a gun fight. But what does political wisdom say about bringing a gun to a knife fight?

That’s exactly what Barack Obama said he would do to counter Republican attacks “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”...
Wall Street Journal, June 14, 2008

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 12:55 
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We probably will never know if the killer had seen this article, and I don't believe the article could in any way have prompted a sane individual to commit such a barbaric act, but it seems the most recent, directly related piece on the Congresswoman who was shot to surface since. It appeared in the popular Daily Kos blog four days ago on 6 January 2011 entitled "My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!", authored by a person identifying themselves as a former campaign staffer for her State House races in Arizona, "contributed thousands upon thousands of dollars to her campaigns," and helped recruit her to run for Congress, and who had recently attempted suicide and relates that this ruined his gay marriage and left him partially paralyzed, but he continued to work for her campaign and raised $100,000, and feels betrayed by her lack of support for Pelosi. Two days later the Congresswoman was shot.

The author of that article seems to be suffering himself from forms of mental illness. Its not an article representative of American politics - its definitely outside of the norm and the mainstream. Clearly emotional and passionate; and it doesn't call for her death, but uses, in all caps, the term 'dead to me' to simply illustrate that the writer will have no further dealings with and will not continue to support the Congresswoman. There is no sane or rational connection between the article and the shooting. But of all the things which were said in the press regarding the Congresswoman recently, this piece really stands out, especially if the killer developed a fixation on the Congresswoman going as far back as 2007 - well before the Obama-Biden/McCain-Palin race of 2008 - and interpreted a similar sense of betrayal.

I expect more will come out in the coming days about when and how he planned what he did and what may have been his true motives, however deranged.

Pax et bonum

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 13:26 
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BobC wrote:
During that time frame I was driving a truck to put bread on the table. One day my wife asks me why I was so angry all the time. I looked at what was different in my life and decided it was Rush Limbaugh and other Conservative Radio talk shows. I no longer listen to any of those shows.



I myself took the hard path; chose to continue listening and confront head on the beast. That was the path I choose with similar issues -this, in order to overcome being a reactionary... It is about destructive anger in my opinion, the root or seed of the destructive anger is individually what premises an almost 'automated' response to certain stimuli. Turning off Rush Limbaugh would be a temporary fix.

In my opinion, there is righteous and or legitimate anger -defining it would be a whole other long discussion no doubt.

Anyway, I gained much retrospective insight by observing others. Observing a close friend that would argue with his television (many probably know one of these people) -screaming loudly, with veins almost popping out of his forehead -it was all political disagreement for him that set him off. I would discuss this with him, suggesting that he accomplished nothing, that those on the other side of the screen knew not of his screams... I would imagine he remains the same... I am sure that underlying his display was something else; probably nothing to do with politics at all.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 14:58 
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I don't think Sarah Palin is morally or criminally responsible for these killings. I would think this way even if the shooter eventually claims Palin as his inspiration. I don't see this particular question as going anywhere.

Here is a question that seems more appropriate to me. If you yourself had published on the internet the image of some person, labelled with gun crosshairs, and if that person were shot and lay in intensive care near death, would you not wonder if perhaps you could have expressed yourself differently? With all your intelligence and creativity, could you not find some better way of expressing yourself?

To wonder such a thing, a person does need to believe it is possible for they themselves to error. We have to think we might tomorrow find some way of coming closer to God than we are today.

I am sure Mr. Loughner does not have to deal with any such doubts. Whatever else we may learn about him, I suppose he has a sublime certainty that his deeds are righteous. I hope that one day he will be able to cry for the life of Christina Green.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 15:04 
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PM wrote:
Rose West wrote:
But after years of policies, laws, and behaviors that belittle the part of each of us that's made in God's image, it's easy to see how such things can become more and more common.


I don't think many people are lealizing that the shooter is a victim also if he is mentally ill.
Mental illness is disabling. People do things they woud not otherwise do. What is especially disturbing is that all the signs were there before this tragedy. Some people are marginal. Others are clearly in need of help.



Pete, sorry for the offtopic, but who's that in your av?

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 15:55 
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Luigi Daniele wrote:

Pete, sorry for the offtopic, but who's that in your av?


St Bonaventure. One of my favoritos.

Yours St Benedict?

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 16:09 
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PM wrote:
Luigi Daniele wrote:

Pete, sorry for the offtopic, but who's that in your av?


St Bonaventure. One of my favoritos.

Yours St Benedict?


Yes, sir.

That is a stunning St Bonaveture, sir :)

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 16:38 
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AppleOfHisEye wrote:
Here is a question that seems more appropriate to me. If you yourself had published on the internet the image of some person, labelled with gun crosshairs, and if that person were shot and lay in intensive care near death, would you not wonder if perhaps you could have expressed yourself differently? With all your intelligence and creativity, could you not find some better way of expressing yourself?
Charles,

First, I would say I'm not aware of anyone having put crosshairs on the image of this Congresswoman, however I am aware of graphics which were used by Palin, the Daily Kos, and the Democratic Leadership Council, among others, that depict an image of the United States, with croshairs or bullseyes over particular Congressional districts, including this Congresswoman's - not pictures of people. Which then leads to the answer:

Everyone in politics from as far back as there have been national campaigns have used the term 'target' in reference to targeting or focusing on certain races to spend more money or resources there to win the seat. Hence the target or crosshair or bullseye graphics representing targeted districts. This is not something new or strange or violent in nature but rather a very common graphical representation of a target. Use of the word target in this regard, including the graphical representations noted, is also very common in business. I would wager every single member of Congress in both the House and Senate and the president have used the term before many, many times in this regard and not thought twice about it. And they will continue to use the word on the campaign trail.

So that said, no, if I was pesonally responsible for drawing up one of these graphics in the context of a campaign to graphically represent Congressional districts I was targeting in a particular election and an insane man killed one of the members of Congress in one of the districts I was targeting I would pray for all of those involved in the terrible tragedy, but I would not be led to feel responsible for the actions of the madman. Further - I would take great offense at anyone who even so far as implied, with no evidence at all, that my graphic was in any way responsible. I would take even greater offense if there were contrary evidence indicating my graphic had no influence over the madman, but certain people who just so happen to be my political opponents continued to press the matter as if it had for their own political advantage.

Pax et bonum

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 17:27 
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Daniel,

Quote:
Turning off Rush Limbaugh would be a temporary fix.


As would the cessation of drinking alcoholic beverages is to the Alcoholic . Or sugar to the diabetic.

The fact is I found that talk radio was toxic to me, so I stopped listening to it.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 17:42 
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dlm wrote:
Turning off Rush Limbaugh would be a temporary fix.


This whole earthly life is temporary, if it comes to that.

If we want to become the image Our Lord has in mind for us, we need to truly learn about ourselves and work to become like that. For some of us, that might be turning off Rush Limbaugh. For others of us, it might be listening, with the purpose of deciding what we agree with and then carefully working through the reasons we disagree on other points.

YMMV (your mileage may vary), but we need to do whatever it is we do with prayer and the Sacraments.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 17:47 
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions." - Ronald Reagan


Nuff Said

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 18:30 
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It's very true. Claiming it's society's fault is like saying it's a girl's fault for being raped.

Ironically, we need to fix society to change that perception.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 18:36 
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Is someone with schizophrenia accountable for her or his actions?

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 18:41 
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Are you using the term as a medical person properly would, or are you refering to those people with multiple personalities?

In either case, I couldn't answer the question. It would have to be very specific to the person and his or her circumstances.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 19:28 
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PM wrote:
Is someone with schizophrenia accountable for her or his actions?


Assuming God alone will deal with sin and determine degree of guilt if any; society deals with the physical. Psychology sometimes tries to span the two realms employing experts in subjective theory that can never be proven. As long as it remains academic banter it is no problem; however, when it challenges reality and endangers individuals and society THEN many begin to take issue.

For instance, why is schizophrenia a disorder? IF everyone was schizophrenic would schizophrenia be considered normal?

The answer is simple -the condition is determined a disorder ('bad') not in reference to some arbitrary standard but in reference to individual and societal values. The condition can premise self destructive behavior and pose a danger for the individual and society in general. As far as schizophrenia, proponents of the schizophrenia agenda have not been as successful as homosexual agenda proponents have been in normalizing the abnormal behavior yet -though they try...

Anyway, I would say they are accountable as far as direct responsibility for the action as they are clearly the one that acted. As well, they may be considered a future threat from future such actions and as such may be required to be removed from society. Both of these regardless intent or mental capacity. What responsibility one lacks becomes the responsibility of society e.g. one that can not control themselves in regard to endangering themselves and others will be controlled by society.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2011 21:35 
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Is someone with schizophrenia accountable for her or his actions?


Possibly. Did they deliberately not take medication? What was the mental state at the time of the Gun Purchase? Ammo Purchase? High Capacity Magazine Purchase?

Was the person diagnosed with Schizophrenia? Or are there some arm chair shrinks second guessing the person's actions.

If the person was diagnosed, was that diagnosis reported to the proper authorities? If so then he would not have been able to purchase a weapon, if that is the case then what is the culpability of the person who did not report the diagnosis.

There are a lot of questions to be asked and answered.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2011 05:23 
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Listening to C-SPAN Radio this morning while driving to the train station, in part of the conversation, on Washington Journal, it was mentioned that, unlike most states, Arizona law allows any individual citizen to petition the court for the psychiatric evaluation of another citizen. It seems perhaps many of the individuals involved in the life of the man who committed this horrible crime, who in interviews with the press expressed their serious concerns over the condition of his mental health before the incident, and in his contacts with law enforcement (I understand there were five occasions), with his high school, with the college that expelled him, with his friends and family, and with his several former employers, none were aware of or were unwilling to make such a petition. And I'm not sure I would have either, if I had been in his classes, or was his arresting officer, or his teacher, etc., as one might assume he was already under care, or choose not to get involved in such a personal matter with potentially grave implications, or to devote the time and effort necessary to see the process through, or perhaps to think the responsibility for doing so rested with others, closer to him, or in official capacities.

Its an interesting question as it seems in law there was a mechanism for people who had experience with this man and noted his strange behavior - more than one expressed fear (especially at the college) - to intervene, before harm was done. At his college and one expects his high school (where he was transported by ambulance unconscious due to alcohol poisoning) these episodes were well documented. At the college specifically he was banned from campus unless and until a psychiatric evaluation found him to not be a danger to himself or others; they took the matter very seriously.

I think perhaps petitioning the court to impose an evaluation upon someone largely goes against the grain of our society. Its a drastic measure, especially for someone who is not a very close friend or family member, which carries with it the possibility that the person in question might lose their freedom - something I think one approaches with serious reservation. I think its also probably beyond our ordinary expectation; that we, as private citizens would be in a position to have a relative stranger forced to be evaluated under court order. Probably a lot of us faced with this situation would consider it outside of our competence to even make the determination to petition - that maybe we identify his behavior as seriously abnormal and disturbing, but he's walking around, was allowed to enroll at school, has a driver's license, etc., that maybe he's under care and not taking his medications, or may seem unhinged but can't be that bad or else wouldn't be here... that if he were that bad off someone (meaning someone in an official or familial capacity) would do something about it, right?

I have no idea what the law is in my home state, but I'm going to look into it. I came of age in New York where several high profile news stories at the time highlighted the fact that, for example, homeless people exhibiting obvious signs of serious mental illness, still had a right to live as they would, within the aw, undisturbed. In one particular front page story a woman was arrested by police for defecating in the middle of the street just off Central Park in broad daylight and the city sought to have her committed. The woman was represented by a famous attorney who championed her cause as a civil rights issue and won her release. But not long after, she was again arrested for the same thing and ultimately committed. I assumed the laws were similar most everywhere and never thought such authority to petition the court for this purpose could or would fall to individual citizens in other states.

I wonder how many people know their own state law and how many people who live in states that empower them in this way are aware of it...

Pax et bonum

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"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2011 08:13 
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dlm wrote:
PM wrote:
What responsibility one lacks becomes the responsibility of society e.g. one that can not control themselves in regard to endangering themselves and others will be controlled by society.


As Brianbyrne points out, there is a great deal of ambiguity in how, when and who should intervene to limit another's freedom and take that responsibility. "I think perhaps petitioning the court to impose an evaluation upon someone largely goes against the grain of our society." Sure does. And maybe that's good. i don't know

Bob's questions I think remain unanswerd at the moment.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2011 10:29 
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Brian,
I wouldn't want to do it, mostly because I would fear that I was getting involved in something that I shouldn't (morally, spiritually).
Another reason is that, you would certainly get on that person's list! Unless it could be done anonymously. Which
I wouldn't really think is a good idea either. It seems that the family should have done it, but there isn't much information
on the family. It reminds me of the Virginia Tech guy. :(

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As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2011 14:25 
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This tragedy alerts us to a very improtant social issue.
Counting The Mentally Ill: The Needs Haven't Changed, Only The Definitions
Less money for community mental health means that less care is available for people with mental health and substance abuse disorders who are not fortunate enough to have adequate health insurance or rich enough to pay cash for treatment. It is increasingly easy for persons who might benefit from community based care to fall through the ever-widening cracks to the point where they are homeless and without resources that might help them maintain themselves. Not too surprisingly I guess, more of the moderately to severely mentally ill and substance abusing population have found their way into the prison system where, I understand, they also typically do not receive adequate mental health care. It is a crisis that has been building for a long time. (written 2002)


...insuring that an adequate public mental health care infrastructure is available to Americans in need is low on the priorities list of most politicians.


http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc. ... oc&id=1132

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2011 15:16 
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PM wrote:
This tragedy alerts us to a very improtant social issue.
Counting The Mentally Ill: The Needs Haven't Changed, Only The Definitions
Less money for community mental health means that less care is available for people with mental health and substance abuse disorders who are not fortunate enough to have adequate health insurance or rich enough to pay cash for treatment. It is increasingly easy for persons who might benefit from community based care to fall through the ever-widening cracks to the point where they are homeless and without resources that might help them maintain themselves. Not too surprisingly I guess, more of the moderately to severely mentally ill and substance abusing population have found their way into the prison system where, I understand, they also typically do not receive adequate mental health care. It is a crisis that has been building for a long time. (written 2002)


...insuring that an adequate public mental health care infrastructure is available to Americans in need is low on the priorities list of most politicians.


http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc. ... oc&id=1132



I would agree there is a problem; however, we would probably disagree on what is at its root and whether government is even capable of addressing the issue.

REGARDLESS, I would much prefer to see a debate on this topic rather than the political rhetoric that scapegoats and completely ignores this real problem that most likely premises this tragedy.

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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2011 16:20 
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dlm wrote:
I would agree there is a problem; however, we would probably disagree on what is at its root and whether government is even capable of addressing the issue.


I do not even have much of a clue as to where to begin..except to not refer to the mentally ill in dehumanizing terms such as "nutjobs" or "wackos". I know they struggle and sometimes medication does not help much.

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