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 Post subject: Scottish Independence
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012 10:07 
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Scots move closer to vote on independence from UK

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Scotland moved a step closer Monday to a vote on independence after Scottish and British leaders signed a deal laying the groundwork for a popular referendum that could radically alter the shape of the United Kingdom.

Officials from London and Edinburgh have been meeting for weeks to hammer out the details. Sticking points included the date and the wording of the question.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012 11:21 
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LASaxman wrote:
Scots move closer to vote on independence from UK

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Scotland moved a step closer Monday to a vote on independence after Scottish and British leaders signed a deal laying the groundwork for a popular referendum that could radically alter the shape of the United Kingdom.

Officials from London and Edinburgh have been meeting for weeks to hammer out the details. Sticking points included the date and the wording of the question.

Sure hope they have an easier time of it than did we back in '76!

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012 11:24 
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I don't know what it means.

But it is very interesting to look at Britain 100 years ago vs Britain today. 100 years ago the sun never set on the British Empire. By 2020, the "British Empire" might be reduced to England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and 50 years later it might just be England!

(No, I'm not forgetting overseas territories, but they too are increasingly independent and are generally vanishingly small in comparison to the homeland.)

Just very interesting.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012 15:22 
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Jeff,

Quote:
I don't know what it means.


It means the dissolution of the United Kingdom.

Quote:
But it is very interesting to look at Britain 100 years ago vs Britain today.


This referendum concerns an event of 300 years ago (the Act of Union 1707).

Quote:
100 years ago the sun never set on the British Empire


The Empire became the Commonwealth of Nations. It is anything but small. (India small? Canada small? Australia small?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_nations

and here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_sta ... of_Nations

■Antigua and Barbuda
■Australia
■Bahamas
■Bangladesh
■Barbados
■Belize
■Bostwana
■Brunei
■Cameroon
■Canada
■Cyprus
■Dominica
■Gambia
■Ghana
■Grenada
■Guyana
■India
■Jamaica
■Kenya
■Kiribati
■Lesotho
■Malawi
■Malaysia
■Maldives
■Malta
■Mauritius
■Mozambique
■Namibia
■Nauru
■New Zealand
■Nigeria
■Pakistan
■Papua New Guinea
■Rwanda
■Saint Kitts and Nevis
■Saint Lucia
■Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
■Samoa
■Seychelles
■Sierra Leone
■Singapore
■Solomon Island
■South Africa
■Sri Lanka
■Swaziland
■Tanzania
■Tonga
■Trinidad and Tobago
■Tuvalu
■Uganda
■United Kingdom
■Vanuatu
■Zambia

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012 15:35 
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James,

It's so cute when you lump me in with your perception of typical Americans.

Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Quote:
I don't know what it means.
It means the dissolution of the United Kingdom.

Rather a simplistic explanation. It does not really address its significance, which is what I was alluding to.

Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Quote:
But it is very interesting to look at Britain 100 years ago vs Britain today.
This referendum concerns an event of 300 years ago (the Act of Union 1707).

I'm well aware of that. However, it was in no way what I was addressing.

Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Quote:
100 years ago the sun never set on the British Empire

The Empire became the Commonwealth of Nations.

The Commonwealth succeeded the Empire. They are not in any way similar.

And I am aware of its extent.

100 years ago, before World War I, England directly controlled territory and wealth substantially larger than it does now. That was my point. It is a remarkable decline on those scores.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012 15:55 
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Jeff,

Quote:
It does not really address its significance


The significance is that the United Kingdom will have ceased to exist. For anything more we'll have to wait to see the actual wording of the proposal.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012 16:34 
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Britain's prime minister and Scotland's first minister have signed an agreement to hold a referendum in 2014 on Scottish independence that could lead to the United Kingdom breaking up after 300 years.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-16/b ... al/4314792

Quote:
Mr Cameron's Conservatives will be joined by their Liberal Democrat coalition partners in the British parliament and the opposition Labour Party in urging voters to keep Britain together.

The marathon campaign will pit them against Mr Salmond's Scottish National Party (SNP), the majority party in the devolved Edinburgh parliament.



The option of yet further devolution is no longer on the table.

Quote:
The vote is expected to break new ground by including 16 and 17-year-olds, a move favoured by Mr Salmond's side, but in a concession to the British government the ballot paper will not offer a third option of increased devolution.

Deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon denied that the lack of this option was a defeat for the Scottish government...

The wording of the question for the referendum must be submitted to Britain's Electoral Commission for approval, but Scotland has held a consultation using the question: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"

Mr Salmond, who has pushed for a referendum since his party won a majority in the Scottish parliament in May 2011, says Scotland - with a population of five million - should be able to run its own foreign, economic and defence policies.

The devolved Scottish government currently has powers over areas such as health and education, as well as a separate legal system.



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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 10:02 
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Did you know that most of the residents of the Outer Hebrides are still Catholic?

At any rate, I wonder how they will vote. When I went to Scotland in 1989 I detected hostility from some Scots towards the English, some of them nasty. I think there are still feelings of resentment over certain historical events.

If they do actually break away, how will this impact Scotland economically? Or in other areas of life?

I'll be watching this with interest since I have some Scottish blood in me. Scotland is a beautiful country and I want to take my family back there some day.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 10:10 
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Here is another article/perspective on the subject:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog ... um-polling

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 11:12 
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com6063 wrote:
At any rate, I wonder how they will vote. When I went to Scotland in 1989 I detected hostility from some Scots towards the English, some of them nasty. I think there are still feelings of resentment over certain historical events

Andrew,

The resentment between Scots and English is like night and day, oil and water ... second only to the Irish in contempt of the English. I believe the Scots are looking at political independence, a say in how they managed themselves. But in economic and defence terms will still favour a continuance of the relationship they have had with Westminster. Historically the Scots have been the economic muscle of the Empire and they are unlikely to suffer in any way if economic ties are not severed.

In any event of a political split, the crown will remain the glue that will still keep them together.

Jeff,

I don't think Wales will ever split with England, although Northern Ireland is a strong possibility.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 11:19 
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ianJM wrote:
I don't think Wales will ever split with England, although Northern Ireland is a strong possibility.

Really? I would have thought the other way around. I admit my knowledge of British internal political feelings is pretty sparse, though.

I know England regards Wales as a principality, not a nation of its own, and it has of course been part of Great Britain for almost 700 years, far longer than Scotland. I also know that some Welsh see themselves as Welsh, not British, but perhaps that's much the way Texans feel about the USA. :)

Is Northern Ireland really ripe for separation? With whom would they connect themselves? The Republic? Surely not.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 11:29 
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Jeff,

Economically, it does not make sense for the Welsh to seek a separation. And there is no movement there seeking for a split.

Northern Ireland is different. The crown's people are considered as invaders and whatever British loyalty there is on the huge island are mostly imported from England and planted there in the last couple of centuries. There are few royalists there who can trace their roots back as originally Irish.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 11:45 
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Right, but I thought the transplanted English in Ireland were a serious plurality not likely to be dislodged.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 11:54 
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You are right there, Jeff. That is why the Republic, in gunning for independence, did not force the issue about the north. But it does not mean they have given up on unification. At this time, nor in the near future, Ireland does not have the muscle or numbers or the firepower to further their claim.

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PostPosted: 16 Oct 2012 19:04 
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Jeff,

Quote:
...it (Wales) has of course been part of Great Britain for almost 700 years


Actually, it's been tens of millions of years. Gr Britain is not a country; it's the name of an island. The country (for the time being) is the United Kingdom. The Principality of Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England in 1282.

Quote:
I also know that some Welsh see themselves as Welsh, not British


The Welsh do infact see themselves as British; they don't see themselves as English.

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PostPosted: 15 Jan 2013 20:33 
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The right to a free education could be enshrined in the written constitution of an independent Scotland, First Minister Alex Salmond has said.

He also believes that people in Scotland should have a constitutional right to a home.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-21028617

Quote:
"We have a policy that has restored free education, but it should be a constitutional protection.

"The right for every Scottish family to have a home, again we have statute on that, but shouldn't that be a constitutional protection?"


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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013 15:04 
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The Scottish government has outlined a possible transition to independence in the event of a "Yes" vote in the autumn 2014 referendum.

Independence day for Scotland would be in March 2016, with the first elections to an independent parliament in May.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-21331302

Quote:
A 16-page document published by SNP ministers has set out a possible transition from a "Yes" vote in the referendum to independence day in March 2016.

It came before the UK government next week publishes an analysis on the impact of independence.

The Scottish government paper envisages ministers joining other parties and civic groups to negotiate the terms of independence with the UK government, which would see the division of assets and liabilities, new global connections - including the EU - and Scotland's retention of the monarchy.

There would then be a written Scottish constitution, "which reflects the values of the people of Scotland", according to the document.


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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013 15:15 
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It is interesting that England is permitting secession for Scotland whereas when the same was attempted in the United States, it sparked a war.

Is secession for Wales or Northern Ireland also possible, I wonder?

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013 15:19 
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Jeff,

Quote:
Is secession for Northern Ireland also possible, I wonder?


That is an explosive question.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013 15:24 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Jeff,

Quote:
Is secession for Northern Ireland also possible, I wonder?


That is an explosive question.

Heh. I know. But I figure this was a safe place to ask.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013 15:28 
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Jeff,

It's inevitable. Not in the immediate future, but at some point. Hopefully without any further killing.

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PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013 17:27 
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I just finished the historical novel, "Bone Rattler" by Eloit Pattison. The setting is Colonial America during the French and Indian War (Seven Years War to Europeans).

The hero is a Scotsman who was a British convict shipped to the colonies to be indentured for seven years to a royal landowner. The author (who has written many novels about a former Chinese police inspector, set in modern modern Tibet under Chinese rule)

Pattison compares the struggle the Iroquois nation had with colonial British rule with the Scottish struggle against England. In his book, British rangers of Scottish descent are falsely persecuted by regular British army officers and some join forces with the Iroquois warriors.

In the "Author's Notes' of Bone Rattler, he says:
Quote:
During the late 1750's a peculiar complaint began arising from officers in the British forts north of Albany in the New York colony. They questioned the practice of allowing Iroquois allies to bivouac near their combat garrisons due to the unruly behavior that resulted when the Indians mingled with the Highland Scot troops-who seemed, by army standards, little more than heathens themselves. The bonds between Scot and Iroquois that anchor the plot of this novel are indeed not a novelist's fancy but rooted in historic fact: for a few years in the mid-18th century these two extraordinary cultures briefly and sporadically overlapped. In retrospect the connection should come as no surprise to anyone who has studied the two peoples. The Highlanders and Iroquois were both steeped in warrior traditions, shared a rich heritage of storytelling, chafed against authority, and were each in their own way deeply spiritual. A particular headache for British officers-and a particular delight for those of us with Scottish blood gazing back -- was the tendency of certain Highlanders and Iroquois to perform wardances together before engagements.

Where such bonds formed between Scot and Iroquois, they may well have been nurtured by a mutual recognition that both their cultures were under siege by the same forces. They were living in turbulent times, years of unprecedented change that were altering their ways of life, and those of many others, forever. The period in which this book is set marked in a very real sense the beginning of the modern era. Science and literature were blossoming. The proliferation of printing presses had begun to connect and empower people, politically and culturally, in ways never before known. The common man had begun to discover his own identity, with profound implications for society. The first conflict that can truly be called a world war had begun, ignited in the forests of Pennsylvania by a young officer who was later to play the leading role in the American Revolution. These years became the pintel upon which many events of the following centuries swung.

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PostPosted: 21 Mar 2013 16:44 
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Scotland has set a date for an independence referendum to decide if its five million people should end a 300-year-old union and leave the United Kingdom.

First minister Alex Salmond says the vote will be held on September 18, 2014.

Voters will be asked a single question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?"



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-22/s ... um/4587950

Quote:
The SNP argues that North Sea Oil revenues combined with the local farming, fishing and whisky industries would enable an independent Scotland to prosper.

Other parties in Edinburgh and the London government say both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom would lose out.

Critics of the SNP say its sums do not add up because oil reserves are dwindling and Scotland would lose the disproportionately generous share of taxpayer money raised across Britain that it currently receives.

A secession by Scotland would also pose serious challenges to the remainder of the United Kingdom, such as what to do about its Trident nuclear submarine fleet which is based in Scotland.


Um... base them somewhere else? Plymouth?

Quote:
It could also have ramifications for the United Kingdom's status in such bodies as the G7 group of industrialised nations and as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council.

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2013 07:08 
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I'm following this story with a lot of interest. :)

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2013 07:34 
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There has to be somewhere the "other side of the story" how come it is not being shown?

I note in that article that special permission to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote, isn't that sort of stacking the deck?

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PostPosted: 22 Mar 2013 15:09 
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Bob,

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... isn't that sort of stacking the deck?


Surprisingly, that might just pan out with a result the opposite of what's intended.

Quote:
There has to be somewhere the "other side of the story" how come it is not being shown?


I though the article summarised both sides of the argument reasonably well.

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PostPosted: 24 Mar 2013 17:01 
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Tit for tat.

Quote:
Legislation that affects just England should normally need backing by a majority of MPs who represent English constituencies, a report says.

The McKay Commission said such a principle should be enshrined in a resolution of the House of Commons.

The commission was launched last year to consider whether Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish MPs should have a vote on English-only matters.

The government said it would give the report "serious consideration".



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21920010

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2013 19:49 
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Future monarchs should be crowned in Scotland as well as at Westminster Abbey if Scotland becomes independent, a Church of Scotland report suggests.

The proposal is one of a series of recommendations which was put forward in a paper to be discussed by the Kirk's General Assembly in May.

It says the ceremony would "symbolise their role as Queen or King of Scots".

The paper has also recommended that any written Scottish constitution should enshrine the Kirk as a national church.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-22280078


If a coronation is to take place in Scotland, will the Stone of Scone be returned for the purpose? And if not, wouldn't it be preferable for a Scots sovereign to have their coronation at Westminster?

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PostPosted: 08 May 2013 05:59 
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Apparently the Queen wants Scotland to remain as part of the empire.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/world/eur ... ?hpt=hp_t2

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PostPosted: 08 May 2013 07:02 
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Well, part of the Kingdom:

Quote:
The Queen's Speech also said the government "will continue to make the case for Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom."


I think the Empire formally ended with the end of British rule over Hong Kong in 1997.

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PostPosted: 08 May 2013 14:58 
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Jeff,

Strictly correct. (Though for most it ended with the creation of the Commonwealth after the war.)

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PostPosted: 08 May 2013 15:26 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Jeff,

Strictly correct. (Though for most it ended with the creation of the Commonwealth after the war.)

An aside and admitted thread drift:

It's interesting that, given all the wars that occurred during the 20th century, if one says "The War", most folks in Western Civilization assume WWII is being referenced.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled "Scottish Independence" thread! :wink:

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PostPosted: 08 May 2013 17:13 
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Jim,

(Continuing drift)

Not that I'm in real estate, but there is a reason for that,

Quote:
More than 60 million people died in World War 2. About 40 million were civilians, many of them children.

The United Nations has set aside a two-day global observance that occurs on May 8 and 9 each year. It is known as the “Time of Remembrance and Reconciliation for Those Who Lost Their Lives during the Second World War



http://www.news.va/en/news/remembering- ... ied-in-ww2

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PostPosted: 09 May 2013 05:39 
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There remains a lot of hostility towards the Brits in Scotland. I suspect many would like to cut the cord.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2013 05:45 
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com6063 wrote:
There remains a lot of hostility towards the Brits in Scotland. I suspect many would like to cut the cord.

I believe the Scottish are British. The English, Welsh, and Scottish are all British.

There is hostility toward the English in Scotland.

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PostPosted: 09 May 2013 06:17 
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Kardinal wrote:
com6063 wrote:
There remains a lot of hostility towards the Brits in Scotland. I suspect many would like to cut the cord.

I believe the Scottish are British. The English, Welsh, and Scottish are all British.

There is hostility toward the English in Scotland.


Thank you Jeff.

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