Catholic Online Forum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9136191/Christians-have-no-right-to-wear-cross-at-work-says-Government.html

"In a highly significant move, ministers will fight a case at the European Court of Human Rights in which two British women will seek to establish their right to display the cross.
It is the first time that the Government has been forced to state whether it backs the right of Christians to wear the symbol at work.
A document seen by The Sunday Telegraph discloses that ministers will argue that because it is not a “requirement” of the Christian faith, employers can ban the wearing of the cross and sack workers who insist on doing so...."

And people think the U.S. Government is overstepping its bounds...This is beyond persecution.

Pray

And on Monday and everyday, everyone who is Christian around the globe should openly display the Crucifix or a Cross.
Mike N

Mike,

Odd thing for the Tories to be up to ("Crown and Church" and all). Still it isn't up to the UK government. The decision will be made in Strasbourg.

Another odd thing is that the Telegraph article, while quoting the first provision of Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights, fails to mention the, rather important, second part:



Should be an interesting one to follow.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Right. But the Conservatives are arguing against....And isn't this the same party that recently said it was for gay marriage?

Is Australia in the Northern Hemisphere now? There's no smilie for Surreal.....

Mike,



I don't understand what that's supposed to mean. There's been no attempt by either major party in Australia to interfere with religion and the two bills now before the Parliament on same-sex "marriage" will be defeated (assuming Abbott stands his ground and refuses the Liberals a conscience vote).



I know the meaning differs in the US, but elsewhere:

Conservative: a person whose politics is concerned with a defence of the rights of the Crown and of the Church (meaning Anglican)
Liberal: a person whose politics is concerned with defending the interests of the class of property and wealth. They are of two factions:
a) those who believe the state should identify itself with the interests of that class
b) those who would prefer that the state did as little as possible.

It is, as I said, odd therefore that the Conservatives are against the two ladies. (I take it the Liberals will also be against the ladies. On principle, the Liberals will support the employers over the employees.)

Conservative support for same-sex marriage is unremarkable given the number of homosexuals in the Conservative Party as well as the general level of support for Conservatives among homosexuals. (Yes, I know it differs in the US.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I meant that it seems odd to me. Nothing against Australian anything, it was a joke.

Your explanation clears things up. I always thought of labor and tory being fairly parallel with Dem and Rep is the US not only economically but socially as well.

MikeN

Mike,

I'll bet you any money the Labour Party will stay well away from this.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Mike,

Political disputes in the US have to do with diferences among the two groups of liberals. This has been so since the days of Jefferson and Hamilton.

In the traditional sense of "Conservative" there are no conservatives in the US, just two factions of liberals.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Why?

And I understand a bit about GB's history with homosexuality (Oscar Wilde issue mostly) Civil rights fine. But I always thought the Conservatives wouldn't do anything to upset the C of E. ...?

OK and the American "middle class" are really proletarians with station wagons.

There is no Crown here. But what about Tradition. Family Values? The British right doesn't campaign on these things?

Here in Israel with all the political, social and religious problems plaguing the communities here, there is a hope and a vibrancy here that is lacking in the West. From the vantage point here looking across the Mediterranean pond at Europe and the U.S, we see continual decline and lack of self preservation. A Christian woman wearing a cross or crucifix in full public view is common. It is an expression of your identify, People here take it for granted.


Sent from my iPhone,
Yossi Beneliezer

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Yossi / יוסי

Frankly, there is no British Right, really. I think the problem is that we confuse political spectrum, which is largely to do with economic position, and moral issues. One may be a conservative politically and a liberal morally, or vice versa.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Julie,



Oi!

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Mike,

Why? Because the Labour Party has no need to do anything about it. They are not in government. The Conservatives and Liberals are. Labour need not have a position and therefeore, will not.

Were this to happen here the ladies would have the full support of the Flight Attendants Association of Australia and of the NSW Nurses Association as well as of the Australian Labor Party (especially the heavies in the NSW Branch). But the Labor Party here and the British Labour Party are very different animals with very different origins and and very different histories.



Exactly right. No Conservative would ever, in even the slightest, seek to upset the Anglicans Establishment in any way. So, um, what leads you to imagine the Anglican Establishment has a difficulty with homosexuality?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Mike,



I thought it was 4x4s (SUVs). No, the American middle class is middle class. But you don't have an hereditary nobility (but then, neither will England shortly thanks to Mr Blurr's "reforms").



"Family values' are very, very middle class.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Yossi,



Oh? I seem to recall that when Pope Benedict XVI visited the Wailing Wall there were demands that he remove his pectoral cross.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

VEY!!

AND WOW!!??
The more time I spend online with people around the world, the less I know. Amd I'm starting to wonder if I'm not happier that way.

England over France 24-22. This was an exciting one.

Mike N

Mike,

On the subject of Oi! this might help

http://www.youfixittube.com/watch?v=FtRuGBA7USE

(Forget about the KKK, this is the business.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(UK)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

So much for Mods and Rockers. How much influence does the NF? I know the loud woman on a tram incident was a big deal but are many Brits quietly sympathetic to the NF?

Mike,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Hi Seamas,
Thanks for the debate. True the Pope is not 2 women wearing a cross on their neckless and the Western Wall is not your average place of work. The question is who were up in arms over the Crucifix and why at the Wall. The Orthodox in general and the Ultra Orthodox Haradim in particular have a real knee jerk over anything Christian or associated with YESHU (an acronym curse "may your name be erased from the book of life - full meaning, and a play on Jesus name - Yeshua). Therefore the Cross at the Wall by the Vicar of YESHU, "Oi Gevalt". The average secular Israel has a positive attitude toward the Pope but in the schools here still have a negative attitude towards the Church over the expulsions in Spain during 1492, the inquisitions that continued up until end of the 19th century in Latin America and all the other memories preserved here in the Haradi traditions and customs and in the research papers that proliferate in the Universities here. As I wrote earlier, the different Christisn, Jewish and Muslim communities have a real love/hate/fear relationship between them and among them. I think I've gone off the beaten path. Public outward manifestations of your identity are allowed and respected here. So maybe less government intrusions in the personal affairs of each person would move things along rather nicely.



Sent from my iPhone,
Yossi Beneliezer

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Yossi / יוסי

Yossi,



I just gave you an example where it wasn't.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Perhaps the exception that proves the rule?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

I know you're not usually a fan of Fowler, but you might enjoy this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_ ... s_the_rule

I'll take you to intend the "loose rhetorical sense" and agree with you.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Q: I haven't been following this... unless it's the old BA story. The question is: Does their place of work have a uniform? Does that uniform limit or disallow 'jewellery'? Is wearing anything on a chain likely to be considered a health and safety hazard (I have known children to be banned from wearing scapulars for that reason)? Or is this specifically a religious issue (yes, it has become one, but is that actually what it's about?)?

I mean, it does make a difference - you know about uniform when you sign the contract. If there are concerns about religious requirements, modesty, symbols of faith etc. that should be discussed before accepting a job.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

I admire the Cardinal's courage

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Simon

Julie,



It is. (Hence my pinging it into this old thread.)

I imagine it's the standard BA flight attendant uniform, ie certain minimal jewellery permissible, no mention of religion in the contract.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Simon,

Yes. Same here.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

They should have asked at interview, that's all I can say.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Does the prohibition also apply to the wearing of a Star of David or miniature Torah? What about a Wiccan wearing a miniature Tree, Sun/Star or Moon?

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BobA

Bob, since we're talking about the British Airways case, yes, it does also apply to other religious symbols. There may be some exception for those who wear a particular item as a required part of their faith, but again, that sort of thing would be determined before anyone signed a contract of any sort, surely? The point is, we are not required by Divine or Church law to wear a crucifix.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

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Sammy John

Julie,

You might want to have another look at Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

From my short experience at US Bases at Afghanistan this appears to be quite common

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Simon

James,

We don't actually subscribe to it, as far as I know. No anti-discrimination laws here...

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

We can wear or carry such items without visible display, I carry a rosary and wear a scapular but they are not visible to the public. In all it sounds like a reasonable rule in the PC world of today and does not seem to be targeting any particular religious group.

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BobA

Julie,



You helped draft it. It is binding on all member states of the Council of Europe. It has applied in the UK since it came into force in 1953, long before you joined the EU. The ladies in question are appealing to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg under Article 9.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

With all due respect, Jersey is not part of the UK, nor part of the EU. I should know. My Bailiwick of Jersey passport has "Holder not entitled to EU benefits regarding employment or establishment" stamped in it.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Well, that's interesting. I just read the whole Wikipedia article about Jersey.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Me too!

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Jeff Stevens

Here's more



https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/je.html

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Bob C

www.jersey.com

Click on 'about Jersey' and then you can get some historical and/or heritage related info. We are known for cows, potatoes, giant cabbages (made into walking sticks), Bergerac and having New Jersey named after us. Though you'd be surprised how many people haven't cottonned onto the latter.

***here endeth the thread drift***

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Julie,

The ladies aren't in Jersey, they're in the UK.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Former Archbishop of Canterbury: Christians in UK being persecuted the way homosexuals once were

Yes.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

It is to be hoped the European Court of Human Rights will provide it. The Houses of Parliament certainly won't.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21025332

Three cheers for Strasbourg! (Boos and hisses for the Tory-Liberal Coalition.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Another good report of the same can be found here

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-16/c ... ce/4466550

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Impossible, James. The European Court of Human Rights could never make a correct ruling in a religious liberty case!

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Jeff Stevens

One of the Christians won-- the other LOST her case.

Shirley Chaplin, the nurse who had been wearing her crucifix on a chain around her neck since 1978 and then was told she had to hide it, lost her case.
Based only on the admittedly superficial newspaper accounts, I think she is being discriminated against. The hospital told her she couldn't wear it because somebody might grab it yet Muslim nurses are allowed to wear their headscarves. They would not even accept a compromise of wearing it as a pin-- unless it were hidden inside her clothing.

Two other cases involving Christians but not wearing of crosses/crucifixes were also decided--- AGAINST the Christians and in favour of homosexuals.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace,

I'm going to have to agree with the court on this one. I know of nowhere where nurses are allowed to wear make-up or jewellery.



(From the Beeb link above.)

I don't think that unreasonable or unjust. I don't believe the decision has anything to do with religion.

Another of the losers on the day was a celebrant of civil marriages who refused to conduct same-sex ceremonies. Again, I don't think that unreasonable or unjust. Again, I don't believe the decision has anything to do with religion. A state celebrant can have no option but to comply with state law. What has religion to do with a civil "wedding"?

The other loser was a "sex therapist" who as an evangelical objected to assisting gay couples. This is just too silly to be worthy of comment.

All in all, a good decision (and, incidentally, the one I had predicted).

Three cheers for Strasbourg!

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)