Catholic Online Forum

From Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/vatican-hails-un-palestine-vote-wants-guarantees-for-jerusalem-1.481596



I hope this largely synbolic recognition by the UN General Assembly of a Palestinian State based on the 1967 lines with East Jerusalem as its capital progresses peace. But I fear we will be waiting for many years for both sides of the conflict to make the essential compramises for that to happen mind you.

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Craig Smith

Craig,



Hard to compromise with people who want to annihilate you. I do not believe that in my lifetime, at least, that there will be peace between Israel and Palestine and probably in the whole of the Middle East where Christians are being driven out.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Craig,

The UN vote is little more than a fuzzy, feel-good resolution.

The only possible solution to the problem is a two-state solution. No amount of UN well intentioned votes can secure that. It can only be achieved by bilateral discussions between Israel and the Palestinians. Such discussions cannot take place properly until the Palestinians acknowledge the existence of Israel.

Compromise? What exactly should Israel compromise on? It's own existence?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

For anyone who may be interested, here is the vote:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... tion_67/19

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

I'm a little surprised by the UK abstaining though I know many Europeans judge Israel harshly. What do you think was going on politically with the UK that they didn't vote?

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

The UN has done nothing to protect Israel. The 'conflict' is between a nation that exists and a group of thugs that want to destroy it -there can be no compromise. Authentic peace can only happen when the thugs cease seeking the destruction of Israel. The Peace the UN seeks is false and delusional.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Poland abstaining surprises me. I wonder what was going on behind the scenes?

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Israel will never give up any part of Jerusalem and it will never be on the table for any peace talks.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

James, the PLO recognised Israel in 1993 With Abbas repeatedly reaffirming this. Hamas as of course are another kettle of fish..

And no of course Israel can not compromise on its own existence but she must compromise on territory, principally the continuation of illegal Jewish only settlements in the west bank and east Jerusalem; which make a future Palestinian state not viable. It bears keeping in mind that the West bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem amount to only 22% of historic Palestine, there are no territorial compramises the Palestinians can now make. Of course as Abbas as recently hinted the return of Palestinian refugees to israel is a non starter.

What is the alternative? The Palestinians are not going to disappear neither are the Israeli's. If a two state solution fails as it will with continued Israeli colonisation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, we will be left with military occupation, apartheid or a single state without a Jewish majority

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Craig Smith

Not a black-and-white alternative, but a very big amelioration of the problem would be if all the Muslims countries immediately gave Palestinians residing there citizenship. For example, there were 2nd and 3rd generation Palestinians living in Kuwait when I lived there -- Palestinians who had been born there and their parents born there-- yet the Kuwaitis adamantly refused to given these people citizenship, as have other Muslim countries, including very wealthy ones; instead the Palestinians have emigrated to western countries, which if they are Muslim Palestinians, are at odds with the traditions and values, or been kept as hostage pawns by other Muslims who would rather keep feeding hatred of Israel than help their brother Muslims/Arabs. And all the while, the Christian Palestinians are squeezed from all sides until they can barely survive in their ancient homelands.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace, I don't disagree, the Palestinian refuges have been misused as second class political pawns by thier 'host' dictatorial Arab states and the Palestinian leadership for decades, it's a disgrace! It's fantasy land to think that they can all return to Israel. Resettlement in a future Palestinian state in the occupied territories and absorption into the wider Arab world with compensation is the only realistic option.

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Craig Smith

Craig,

The Palestinians have no rightful claim to any part of Jerusalem. The 1947 UN Resolution 181 that split the Palestine region into Arab and Jewish states did not hand Jerusalem to either side. The city was supposed to be under the care of a Trusteeship Council, with its own government headed by a Governor who is not supposed to be a citizen of either states.

But when the Arabs attacked Israel after the Jewish State declared independence the following year, Jerusalem became a focal point. The Israelis captured the city but in the course of the war gave the Old City (East Jerusalem) up to Jordan because they did not want the burden of the Holy sites. They were to regret it because the Muslims destroyed all their synagogues, razed the Jewish quarter to the ground and desecrated the Jewish cemeteries.

In the 1967 Six Day War, they recaptured the Old City, which has some of the most holiest sites in Judaism (Temple Mount and Western Wall), Christianity (Church of the Holy Sepulchre) and Islam (Al-Aqsa Mosque). Under Jewish administration, these places, especially Islam's Dome of the Rock, have been protected. Jerusalem was fully conquered over two wars by Israel and they have a rightful claim to it. Thank God.

With the direction Islam is taking today, especially in the Middle East, towards other faiths, there is a stronger reason East Jerusalem should never come under the hands of Islam. The city is the home of Judaism and the birthplace of Christianity and if we want to see it preserved, must remain under either one's administration.

The Palestinian Authority and every Arab nation are shedding whatever Christian character they have, and if you are looking to any apartheid-style aggression in the region, the Muslim Arabs and their Islamic governments are it. Reports of Christians fleeing from Bethlehem and every Arab country is a chilling reality that has even alarmed Pope Benedict XVI.

But the Arabs want the world to believe that Israel, and not they, is the racist pariah. Well, they have the petro dollars to buy into key committees in the United Nations to do so. They have been pushing the Durban Declaration for years to not only make any action or criticism against Islam a crime against humanity but to brand the Jewish state as an apartheid nation. Muslim nations are the staunchest supporters of the Declaration, but unfortunately some others have bought into their lie.

But then again, the UN is no longer a credible body that can be taken seriously.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Pope Pius XII suggested in 1949 that Jerusalem should be an international city. Whether the UN could safeguard and administer Jerusalem is highly questionable.

REDEMPTORIS NOSTRI CRUCIATUS

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

The Palestinians never made claims to Gaza and the West Bank when Egypt and Jordan controlled those areas. They only claimed it after the Arab states attacked Israel in the 1967 war and a victorious Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. The United States occupied Germany and Japan and no one expected them to do otherwise. They insured functioning democracies which would not threaten them in the future.

The PLO may recognize Israel but neither Hamas nor much of the Arab world (and to some extent I'm talking about the tens of millions of civilian citizens of the Arab world) do and Hamas is in control of the ongoing attacks on Israel.

Israel can't give up territory prior to the recognition by all the Arab states to that they have a right to a Jewish state and prior to Hamas giving up their control and their attacks. At his point in time, there is no reason to believe that Israel will ever be in a position to give up territory obtained after victory against aggressors because their existence will be even more threatened if they give up the occupation. No country on earth would be expected to do otherwise under the same circumstances. Israel does everything they can to avoid killing civilians while Palestinian suicide bombers intentionally kill civilians. Israel cannot give up the restrictions when it will only result in even more suicide attacks.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,



You may have noticed Australia abstained.

The PM wanted to vote against the resolution. This risked being misunderstood as a lack of support for the two-state solution. (Obviously, a vote in favour of the resolution would be seen as anti-Israel and was therefore out of the question.) The correct position, that of abstaining, was a little touch and go there for a bit.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-28/o ... ue/4395832

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

It seems that the Christians living in the Holy Land supported this recognition.

“UN recognition of Palestine, a Peace factor.” Patriarch Emeritus Sabbah

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

A few snippets from the Communiqué itself:









http://www.news.va/en/news/communique-of-the-holy-see

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)