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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 09:24 
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http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=7089

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Throughout his eight-year papacy, Pope Benedict XVI has “carried out a cleansing of the episcopate,” said the apostolic nuncio to Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tadjikistan.

“This Pope has removed two or three bishops per month throughout the world because either the accounts in their dioceses were a mess or their discipline was a disaster,” said Archbishop Miguel Maury Buendia during a Feb. 20 address at the University of San Pablo in Madrid.

“The nuncio went to these bishops and said, ‘The Holy Father is asking you for the good of the Church to resign from your post.’”
Nearly all of these bishops, when approached by the Pope’s representative, were aware of the “disaster” and accepted the request to resign, he added.

“There have been two or three instances in which they said no, and so the Pope simply removed them,” he explained. “This is also a message to the bishops: do the same thing in your dioceses.”


Two or three a MONTH? I'm a bit surprised by that number.

I am happy with the quality of bishops we seem to have gotten in the last eight years. While I love John Paul, Benedict's appointments have been almost universally fantastic.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 10:33 
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Two or three a MONTH? I'm a bit surprised by that number.


That does seem to be a lot

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 10:43 
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That doesn't reflect very well on John Paul II, who would have appointed most all of them and allowed the "disasters" to develop.

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Last edited by LASaxman on 26 Feb 2013 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 10:44 
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BobC wrote:
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Two or three a MONTH? I'm a bit surprised by that number.


That does seem to be a lot

Around a hundred! :o

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 10:51 
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LASaxman wrote:
BobC wrote:
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Two or three a MONTH? I'm a bit surprised by that number.


That does seem to be a lot

Around a hundred! :o
That is 25 to 30 per year; 200-250 over eight years.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 10:57 
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Attaboy, Holy Father!

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 11:03 
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gabriel wrote:
LASaxman wrote:
Around a hundred! :o
That is 25 to 30 per year; 200-250 over eight years.

:oops:

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 11:54 
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LASaxman wrote:
That doesn't reflect very well on John Paul II, who would have appointed most all of them and allowed the "disasters" to develop.

He's Blessed.

Not Immaculate.

:)

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 13:32 
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I don't think we heard about more than a few of those that happened in the US.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 13:36 
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This all seems to me to be far fetched.....possibly true, but surreal nonetheless.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 13:40 
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I think you have to consider... If I really think about it, I seem to recall two or three in the US, but if it's done quietly, it wouldn't be in the media, so maybe there were more Bishops who quietly retired and this was the real reason.

We have what? 60million Catholics here? Then if you extrapolate to amongst 1 billion Catholics?

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 14:01 
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In 2010 the number I found for number of Bishops is 5065. So, 30 per year is just under 5% over eight years. That seems possible.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 14:39 
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BobC wrote:
This all seems to me to be far fetched.....possibly true, but surreal nonetheless.


I myself thought for sure this was happening -slowly but surely. Now it appears there is confirmation.

In my opinion, the fruits to be evidenced from this and other efforts still remain to be fully realized -the Church is still only in the beginning of reforming the reform. That which was unintended for decades is not immediately rectified with intention -doing is required.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 15:49 
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Jeff,

He desrerves our thanks for his efforts in this and our congratulations for his success. My only gripe is that the process is so sloooow. It took more than five years from initial delation to episcopal "retirement" in the case of a certain Queensland bishop.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 16:15 
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More Cowbell wrote:
In 2010 the number I found for number of Bishops is 5065. So, 30 per year is just under 5% over eight years. That seems possible.
As I read it the causes, money and discipline, indicate that those removed were heads of a dioceses or archdioceses. That wouldn't include auxiliary bishops, Vatican staff etc. In 1998 there were about 2500 archdioceses and dioceses; so 250 would be 10%.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 16:27 
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It occurs to me that that is close to Jesus' experience of losing 1 in 12.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 16:33 
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It occurred to me as I was running errands that this puts his retirement in a slightly different light.

If he gently told his brother bishops when he felt they weren't doing the job, perhaps he felt he needed to tell himself that it was time to leave once he got to a certain point?

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 18:58 
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Rose,

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...perhaps he felt he needed to tell himself that it was time to leave once he got to a certain point?


Our Holy Father has already stated the reasons

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Fratres carissimi

Non solum propter tres canonizationes ad hoc Consistorium vos convocavi, sed etiam ut vobis decisionem magni momenti pro Ecclesiae vita communicem. Conscientia mea iterum atque iterum coram Deo explorata ad cognitionem certam perveni vires meas ingravescente aetate non iam aptas esse ad munus Petrinum aeque administrandum.

Bene conscius sum hoc munus secundum suam essentiam spiritualem non solum agendo et loquendo exsequi debere, sed non minus patiendo et orando. Attamen in mundo nostri temporis rapidis mutationibus subiecto et quaestionibus magni ponderis pro vita fidei perturbato ad navem Sancti Petri gubernandam et ad annuntiandum Evangelium etiam vigor quidam corporis et animae necessarius est, qui ultimis mensibus in me modo tali minuitur, ut incapacitatem meam ad ministerium mihi commissum bene administrandum agnoscere debeam. Quapropter bene conscius ponderis huius actus plena libertate declaro me ministerio Episcopi Romae, Successoris Sancti Petri, mihi per manus Cardinalium die 19 aprilis MMV commisso renuntiare ita ut a die 28 februarii MMXIII, hora 20, sedes Romae, sedes Sancti Petri vacet et Conclave ad eligendum novum Summum Pontificem ab his quibus competit convocandum esse.

Fratres carissimi, ex toto corde gratias ago vobis pro omni amore et labore, quo mecum pondus ministerii mei portastis et veniam peto pro omnibus defectibus meis. Nunc autem Sanctam Dei Ecclesiam curae Summi eius Pastoris, Domini nostri Iesu Christi confidimus sanctamque eius Matrem Mariam imploramus, ut patribus Cardinalibus in eligendo novo Summo Pontifice materna sua bonitate assistat. Quod ad me attinet etiam in futuro vita orationi dedicata Sanctae Ecclesiae Dei toto ex corde servire velim.



http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... io_en.html

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Dear Brothers,

I have convoked you to this Consistory, not only for the three canonizations, but also to communicate to you a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry. I am well aware that this ministry, due to its essential spiritual nature, must be carried out not only with words and deeds, but no less with prayer and suffering. However, in today’s world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the barque of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me. For this reason, and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a Conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is.

Dear Brothers, I thank you most sincerely for all the love and work with which you have supported me in my ministry and I ask pardon for all my defects. And now, let us entrust the Holy Church to the care of Our Supreme Pastor, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and implore his holy Mother Mary, so that she may assist the Cardinal Fathers with her maternal solicitude, in electing a new Supreme Pontiff. With regard to myself, I wish to also devotedly serve the Holy Church of God in the future through a life dedicated to prayer.



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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 19:24 
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What I'm thinking is that his conversations with some of the bishops may have followed similar lines.

In his case, it has to do with issues associated with age, but the story says some of the bishops were removed for things like the book keeping was out of line. I'm getting the picture that there's a definite set of skills seen as necessary for the job.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 19:35 
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Rose,

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I'm getting the picture that there's a definite set of skills seen as necessary for the job.


Absolutely. But, while not abdicating responsibility, a good leader delegates. A bishop need not be a genius accountant, but his staff must at least be competent.

While some bishops were removed for fiscal incompetence and negligence, it is sadly true that a good many were removed because of what they said from the pulpit. In every case I know of, the complaints were initiated by laity present.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 19:51 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Rose,

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I'm getting the picture that there's a definite set of skills seen as necessary for the job.


Absolutely. But, while not abdicating responsibility, a good leader delegates. A bishop need not be a genius accountant, but his staff must at least be competent.

While some bishops were removed for fiscal incompetence and negligence, it is sadly true that a good many were removed because of what they said from the pulpit. In every case I know of, the complaints were initiated by laity present.


Given how many cases there apparently have been, there must have been a good many cases we never heard about, where the bishops said something to the effect of, yes, Holy Father, for (x reason), I'm not doing the job that needs to be done, and they left or moved quietly.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 20:09 
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Rose,

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there must have been a good many cases we never heard about


No doubt. And for obvious reason - given the choice between going quietly or having it heralded from the rooftops... That's what struck me as so... well, unmanly about the way Bishop ("call-me-Bill") Morris took it so badly and went squealing to the media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Morris_(bishop)

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 22:13 
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Yes. That was unseemly to say in the least.

I guess what I'm saying is that understanding that there's actually been a lot of bishops changed over the years, for what sounds like a variety of reasons... It leads me to think that this retirement/abdication is simply an extension of the mind that believes a bishop needs to be right for the job. He has said that he sees himself as not able to do the job as it needs to be done, so he's taking that step, just as he's asked some of the bishops to do. The humility of that is as beautiful in its way as was the humility of the previous Holy Father, who showed us how a modern person suffers old age and debilitating illness with grace.

It's been my belief all along that the Holy Father has his reasons for retiring and that he, in particular, wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't correct from every angle. Yet knowing that these bishop changes have been going on all along in this sort of way lends a consistency of thought to the whole thing that makes it more reasonable.

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013 22:20 
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LASaxman wrote:
That doesn't reflect very well on John Paul II, who would have appointed most all of them and allowed the "disasters" to develop.


For sake of argument, let's say that "2 to 3 a month" comes from the ranks of those bishops leading dioceses (and not auxiliary bishops).

According to Catholic Hierarchy, there are 3119 current dioceses, so let's say there's somewhere around 3119 such bishops.

If we assume that, on average, a diocese gets a new lead bishop every 10-15 years, that means our Holy Father appoints somewhere between 207 and 311 diocesan lead bishops each year - just to keep pace!

That many being appointed pretty much means that many bishops being replaced.

So, of the two or three hundred lead bishops replaced each year, somewhere between 1/12 and 1/8 would be because of insufficient rigour in accounting or discipline.

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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013 14:05 
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That will also set a precedent for the next popes. They can remove bishops that are have problems of "doctrine and discipline" such as Bishop Morris:



“it was judged that there were problems of doctrine and discipline, and we regret that these could not be resolved......."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Morris_(bishop)

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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013 15:19 
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Kim,

If anything that Wikipedia is very circumspect. There are a number of liturgical horrors that are passed over in silence. It was those liturgical abuses that first prompted the delation. This removal was the work of good lay people who care deeply about the liturgy.

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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013 18:03 
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Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Kim,

If anything that Wikipedia is very circumspect. There are a number of liturgical horrors that are passed over in silence. It was those liturgical abuses that first prompted the delation. This removal was the work of good lay people who care deeply about the liturgy.


I guess not fixing those liturgical abuses falls under the problem with "discipline".

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