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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2012 13:04 
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I'm about to step into the confessional. I am working on seeing that I am confessing my sins to Jesus, and less that I am confessing to his priest, especially since I know all the priests at my parish decently well. I would appreciate prayers that I am successful in this so I can be more open in the Sacrament and more open to the graces from it. Do you have any suggestions on how to think of the priest more in persona Chrsti?

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 04:41 
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I trust all went well Jeff. Your problem seems strange to me, as I have never seen it as anything else. If I did, I don't think I would ever go. In my childhood, I would go to the priest, behind the screen and would then be horrified,when he said "God bless Peter and say a prayer for me". These days I don't go behind the screen, but sit face to face. A good friend priest, once told me I was too scrupulous. Sadly I trust he is now praying for me in heaven.

In some ways I suppose it can be a bit difficult when one reaches the age that the priest is younger than your youngest son, but it is not a problem.

I am not sure how things operate in the USA, but in Australia, at least my part of it, most parishes have the "second rite" in both Advent and Lent. I have never been a "lover" of that. I much prefer the "one on one". So I always make that part of the beginning of the observance of both seasons.

Wishing you all the blessings of Lent.

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 06:01 
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Jeff,

Just as Jesus was a man on earth and also God at the same time, the priest also shares that symbolism. However when I am confessing although I know that God hears my confession at the same time, I regard the confessor or priest as a man listening and hearing my dreadful sins for that is good for my humility. When the priest absolves me it is then that I feel that Jesus is working directly through the priest although I am sure that Jesus is there the entire time. Also, there is a difference between experiencing humility and feeling humiliated. By the time I relent to see the priest the Holy Spirit has already touched my heart so that I feel more sorry that I have offended God than any embarrassment at confronting the priest. That way satan cannot follow me into the confessional, but up to that time he is still trying to influence me through fear and intrepidation, and regret. As a perpetual prodigal son I am careful to avoid the sin of presumption but am renewed in spirit and flesh after having confessed my sins. I hope this helps you.

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 06:06 
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Hi Jeff,

I'm not sure that I understand your question so I may be way off base with my response. It sounds like you are looking for a way to forget about the priest as a man who knows you personally. Am I correct? If that's what you are asking I have two suggestions.

1. Read the story of the paralytic in Mark's Gospel and pay close attention to his friends. It was through the effort and concern of the friends that the paralytic found healing. It was his friends who brought him to the presence of God. When the priest gives absolution he is acting in the person of Christ. When you are confessing your sins, you may find it helpful to see him as one of the friends of the paralytic - a man who cares so much about you that he wants to help bring you to Christ.

2. Of course if the real issue is that you really don't feel comfortable confessing to someone who knows you well and you see often, there is NOTHING wrong with going to a different parish for confession.

Confession is not meant to be a burden. It's meant to be a place of forgiveness, healing and reconciliation.


I hope this helps in some way,


Effie

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 06:59 
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Peter,

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In some ways I suppose it can be a bit difficult when one reaches the age that the priest is younger than your youngest son, but it is not a problem.


I think that will be a problem for me. My regular confessor had better live longer than me, he's a month older than I am.

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I am not sure how things operate in the USA, but in Australia, at least my part of it, most parishes have the "second rite" in both Advent and Lent. I have never been a "lover" of that. I much prefer the "one on one". So I always make that part of the beginning of the observance of both seasons.


I'm not sure what a second rite is. I'm assuming it's something like our penance services. During Lent and Advent area parishes get together and offer penance services (one at each parish) where there are several priests available for confession. They begin with a small prayer service (it often includes an examination of conscience) followed by the congregation praying the Act of Contrition together. After that everyone goes to individual confession to confess their sins and receive absolution. The only thing different is that you don't pray the Act of Contrition in confession since you already did that at the service.

Anyway, that's how we do it here. Back in the 70's some parishes offered general absolution but that's been stopped. The bishops around here (and I'm assuming all of the country) don't allow that unless it's an emergency situation.

Effie

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 08:07 
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I find it helps to use the traditional formula and the grille. That way, I'm not actually facing Father so-and-so. Sometimes, even, it can help to go to another parish where you don't know the priest.

On the other hand, I kind of automatically see Jesus when I see the priest - even priests with whom I don't get on personally, or with whom I have major disagreements about certain things. I find myself looking at their hands when they talk and stuff - it kind of freaks them out. Actually, maybe that's a point. Is there a priest you don't like? Go to *him* for confession. Go to the priest who just doesn't have a knack for confession. Go to the one who drives you nuts...

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 11:51 
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I wonder if we have the correct understanding of In Persona Christi Capitis.

In the confessional, it is the priest who hears the confession and it is the priest who forgives the sins, it is not as though he disappears and is no longer present. He can forgive sins only because Christ gave him the authority through His Church to do so -- “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 18:18.

The priest shares in the priesthood of Christ and acts in His authority.

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 12:21 
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In order to understand what it means for the priest to act in persona Christi Capitis in the person of Christ the Head and to realize what consequences derive from the duty of representing the Lord, especially in the exercise of these three offices, it is necessary first of all to explain what "representation" means. The priest represents Christ. What is implied by "representing" someone? In ordinary language it usually means being delegated by someone to be present in his place, to speak and act in his stead because the person he represents is absent from the practical action. Let us ask ourselves: does the priest represent the Lord in this way? The answer is no, because in the Church Christ is never absent, the Church is his living Body and he is the Head of the Church, present and active within her. Christ is never absent, on the contrary he is present in a way that is untrammelled by space and time through the event of the Resurrection that we contemplate in a special way in this Easter Season.

Therefore the priest, who acts in persona Christi Capitis and representing the Lord, never acts in the name of someone who is absent but, rather, in the very Person of the Risen Christ, who makes himself present with his truly effective action. He really acts today and brings about what the priest would be incapable of: the consecration of the wine and the bread so that they may really be the Lord's presence, the absolution of sins. The Lord makes his own action present in the person who carries out these gestures.

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 14:41 
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Well, I guess my understanding, which is more of the heart than of the intellect, is that just as every Christian is configured to Christ in a certain way - representing Him to the world at large by participation in His own life and membership of His Body - so the priest does the same kind of thing but in a more specific way, because he shares specifically in Christ's priestly office in a particularly special way. This participation becomes more obvious the holier people are - so that in the eyes of a saint we can truly see Jesus' own compassion. It's not like taking on a role, but the fact that the Christian is by definition a living icon and that our whole lives should 'be' God's presence in the world - so, for example, the life of a married couple may be seen as an icon of the Most Blessed Trinity.

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 23:34 
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Jeff,

It is interesting that you posted this round about now. I received Reconciliation yesterday although I have been reading the thread from the beginning.

My first confession, the priest told me to look at a crucifix as I confessed, and that seemed a good way to take the focus off of the priest, and so-- and this is the important thing-- I always wanted all my confession experiences to be exactly like that one. Now reading the posts, I realise I was sort of trying to pretend that the priest is Christ, and that isn't necessary if I am understanding correctly the posts of people. I also was very concerned about saying everything exactly correctly. And yesterday it went all wrong. :P

The first thing that went wrong from my rigid point of view was that I went to the screen, but he didn't want that; he wanted me to sit next to him on the pew. Inside myself I was thinking, "Oh, no, no, no," but of course I just did what he asked. And it was all okay.

This Central European priest is sort of filling in for us (as priests come and go without explanation the last half year). After we finished he apologised for not knowing the Absolution prayer in English and saying it in Latin, and I apologised for missing when to say the Act of Contrition and I showed him the card. He said, "Ahah! Contrition, contrition." I showed him the Absolution in English (because I had all this stuff in my handbag) and he read it and found the couple of words that he hadn't known in English. He said, "He knows, it is okay."

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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2012 23:37 
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Thank you for sharing Grace.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 02:21 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
Thank you for sharing Grace.

:) And thank you for not thinking it was too dumb to share.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 04:00 
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Effie

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I'm not sure what a second rite is. I'm assuming it's something like our penance services. During Lent and Advent area parishes get together and offer penance services (one at each parish) where there are several priests available for confession. They begin with a small prayer service (it often includes an examination of conscience) followed by the congregation praying the Act of Contrition together. After that everyone goes to individual confession to confess their sins and receive absolution. The only thing different is that you don't pray the Act of Contrition in confession since you already did that at the service.


What you describe seems to be what I refer to as the "second rite".

Though in what I refer to as the second rite, one does not have to make a full confession, and under those circumstances I don't think the priest can spend time giving you counselling, which is why I prefer the "one on one".

Nice to exchange views with you again

Peter

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 08:01 
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All, thank you for your thoughts.

I find myself less willing to confess some (venial) sins in the sacrament because I am far too concerned with what the priest will think of me. Despite all I know, intellectually, about how priests forget 99% of what they hear in the confessional, that my sins are no different from those of a couple billion other Catholics in history, etc, etc, I still find myself concerned with that. It's something I'm trying to get beyond.

I'm trying to see the priest as Christ in order to circumvent that. I know that Christ loves me no matter what, that he is compassionate and happy to see me in the confessional, and eager to hear all my worries and cares and failures, to absolve me of them, and give me His grace so that I might not fall in the same way again. I both know and FEEL that.

Grace, the idea of focusing on the crucifix is one I had not considered, and may have some value. There isn't one in the confessionals I frequent, but I always have my rosary, so I could use that, though it's not particularly lifelike and thus requires a lot of imagination.

I understand that this may not be theologically exactly true in the most technical sense; I'm okay with that for now. It's almost certainly not the only matter of theology I do not believe quite accurately.

If you have any other suggestions on being more open in the confessional, I'd welcome those as well. The one that pops to mind most prominently is...go to confession more. Anything we do which is difficult becomes easier with experience and practice.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 08:05 
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Peebee wrote:
Effie

Quote:
I'm not sure what a second rite is. I'm assuming it's something like our penance services. During Lent and Advent area parishes get together and offer penance services (one at each parish) where there are several priests available for confession. They begin with a small prayer service (it often includes an examination of conscience) followed by the congregation praying the Act of Contrition together. After that everyone goes to individual confession to confess their sins and receive absolution. The only thing different is that you don't pray the Act of Contrition in confession since you already did that at the service.


What you describe seems to be what I refer to as the "second rite".

Though in what I refer to as the second rite, one does not have to make a full confession, and under those circumstances I don't think the priest can spend time giving you counselling, which is why I prefer the "one on one".

Nice to exchange views with you again

Peter

That seems...very unusual. As in...problematic.

The penance services we have in the States are designed to help the penitents who attend to be properly disposed toward the sacrament to make an effective confession and get the most out of it that they can. That's why we all say an Act of Contrition together. Then all the penitents go to a priest individually and do a normal, full sacrament of penance individually, including brief counseling, the enumeration of sins (in number and kind if mortal in order to receive absolution), an individual act of contrition, an individual absolution, and an individual penance. The corporate ritual together has no sacramental value in itself.

What is omitted in the individual part of this "second rite"? What value does the ritual that is undertaken together have?

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 08:34 
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Jeff,


satan plays on our fears. Face your fears and as Christ told us "the truth will set you free". Don't let your fears of being "judged" by a man

keep you trapped. Likely, the priest will admire you more for being candid and brave in revealing your little secrets. More likely he will

forget your sins, and most likely, he will NOT judge you based on your confession. Don't play games with God or the priest. Don't "boast"

of your sins but don't hide them either. You are growing spiritually and will get beyond this stage, just be open and honest. You will

become more peaceful, and receive more joy in life by "letting go of the need to control, and letting God" run your life. He wants us to

trust Him. When you do this more often than not your faith increases exponentially and with this come the fruits of the spirit, and this

makes your prayers, (for whatever you ask) more powerful than before. So there are greater rewards for opening up to the priest

completely and not holding anything back otherwise you may fall for satan's trap.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 11:41 
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Jeff,

I make an appointment and have been to the same confessor for 12 years though occasionally, in between appointments, I will go to one of the monks at my monastery or another priest. I nearly always do face to face. I just had an uncomfortable confession. I'd made my only bad confession previously and made another appointment and felt like I was bothering him though he was generous and gracious as always. I was uncomfortable about one sin but mostly uncomfortable with the same sins coming up again.

I don't actually believe that in that "style" confession...face to face with more time for counseling and so more conversational even though listing number and kind, that the priest always forgets the sins. I think a priest remembers some conversations like any other person and forgets others and so only with this particular priest do I feel that he doesn't necessarily forget them and he's fond of me and I want him to think well of me, etc. It's an advantage to confess to him because he does know what I struggle with in terms of sin and so can offer more help. Even when I first saw him behind the screen, many years ago, he came to know the sins I regularly confessed even though he only knew my voice.

I think of the issue of knowing him well to be one that forces me to embrace humility more fully because of that discomfort brought on. Praying for greater humility in general and particularly before confession, helps me to have a greater since of him acting in persona Christi because I try to humble myself before Christ and I feel that when I struggle to humble myself before confession, I'm reacting to how I want to be with Christ and so try and act accordingly...if that makes sense and I'm not sure it does.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 16:54 
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Jeff,

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A revised rite of the Sacrament of Reconciliation was given to the Church by Pope Paul VI on December 2, 1973. The new rite presents the sacrament in three different ritual forms:

The first form — The Rite for Reconciliation of Individual Penitents — is similar to the way most Roman Catholics remember "confession"; however, provision is made for the reading of sacred Scripture, and the penitent is given the option of speaking to the priest face-to-face or remaining anonymous. The priest may offer advice and gives a suitable penance. The priest pronounces absolution (the prayer for absolution was revised and extended) and the rite concludes with a short thanksgiving.[35]

The second form — The Rite of Reconciliation of Several Penitents with Individual Confession and Absolution — usually begins with readings from scripture, hymns, prayers, a homily and an examination of conscience, followed by a call to repentance. Private confession and reconciliation follow and a final thanksgiving, blessing and dismissal. Paul VI said in 1974 that he hoped this communal rite would "become the normal way of celebration."

The third form — The Rite for Reconciliation of Several Penitents with General Confession and Absolution — is similar to the second, except that the penitents do not make an actual confession, but only manifest contrition (general confession). The prayer of absolution is given collectively or "generally" to all those gathered to celebrate the sacrament (general absolution). The penitents are obliged to actually confess each grave sin in their next confession.[36] Form three is intended for emergencies and other situations when it is not at all possible for the priest(s) to hear all the individual confessions. This rite has been discouraged for widespread use by the Vatican in many countries recently.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_ ... lic_Church)#Rite_of_the_sacrament

The third form may not be used in Australia.

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 20:52 
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This is a remarkable story: Read the portion about the Sacrament of Confession somewhere about one third into the story.

The conversion of death row prisoner Claude Newman

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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 21:23 
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Ian,

"Remarkable" is an understatement. Thank you for that.

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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 11:10 
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Jeff,

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I find myself less willing to confess some (venial) sins in the sacrament because I am far too concerned with what the priest will think of me. Despite all I know, intellectually, about how priests forget 99% of what they hear in the confessional, that my sins are no different from those of a couple billion other Catholics in history, etc, etc, I still find myself concerned with that. It's something I'm trying to get beyond.


I may be way off base here, and I apologize in advance if I am. That being said, you may want to reflect on why you are so concerned about what the priest will think about you. Is it because his opinion matters so much to you, or is it because of pride? If it's because of pride, that's what you have to work on. Once you get to the source of the problem it's easier to fix it. And if pride is keeping you from making a good confession.........

Another thing you can do is talk to him about your hesitations - outside of the confessional. It won't be the first time he's heard it, and it won't be the last. You may also find that the priest deals with some of the same sins that you do, after all, they are human.


Effie

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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 11:26 
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Ian, I've seen that story a couple of times before. It always amazes me.

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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 11:37 
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IlovebeingCatholic wrote:
Jeff,

Quote:
I find myself less willing to confess some (venial) sins in the sacrament because I am far too concerned with what the priest will think of me. Despite all I know, intellectually, about how priests forget 99% of what they hear in the confessional, that my sins are no different from those of a couple billion other Catholics in history, etc, etc, I still find myself concerned with that. It's something I'm trying to get beyond.


I may be way off base here, and I apologize in advance if I am. That being said, you may want to reflect on why you are so concerned about what the priest will think about you. Is it because his opinion matters so much to you, or is it because of pride? If it's because of pride, that's what you have to work on. Once you get to the source of the problem it's easier to fix it. And if pride is keeping you from making a good confession.........

Another thing you can do is talk to him about your hesitations - outside of the confessional. It won't be the first time he's heard it, and it won't be the last. You may also find that the priest deals with some of the same sins that you do, after all, they are human.


Effie

It's pride. That's not really in question. But we work around sins while we work ON sins.

For instance, those who lust avoid beaches while working on overcoming lust.

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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 14:12 
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Something to think about: Priests, bishops and even the pope also confess their sins and I would think that often it is to someone they personally know.

Quote:
2 Corinthians 2:10
[10] And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.

Douay Rheims Commentary: I also: The apostle here granted an indulgence, or pardon, in the person and by the authority of Christ, to the incestuous Corinthian, whom before he had put under penance, which pardon consisted in a releasing of part of the temporal punishment due to his sin.

James 5:16
[16] Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Douay Rheims Commentary:Confess therefore your sins one to another: That is, to the priests of the church, whom (ver. 14) he had ordered to be called for, and brought in to the sick; moreover, to confess to persons who had no power to forgive sins, would be useless. Hence the precept here means, that we must confess to men whom God hath appointed, and who, by their ordination and jurisdiction, have received the power of remitting sins in his name.

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