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For some time now it seems the hints and signs of the Spirit has led me to see a connection between the simple heart and honest prayers. Is this something you think about, whether perhaps prayers are honest or not? It worries me personally, very much.. Perhaps it is more a matter of them being superficial or honest I mean. I feel very much uplifted by honest, deep, connected prayers but I gotta say, I think the superficial prayers are, at least sometimes, somewhat harmful(!) Am I on the wrong or right track here? I would appreciate your input. My experience and knowledge are very limited, especially in prayer.

God bless.

Jesper

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Jesper B

Jesper,

I’ve gone from praying for all sorts of silly things in my younger days to a stage where I pray for God’s graces to live according to His will, as well as praying for family and friends. This, to me, is a simple, honest prayer, reaching a stage where I now understand the Father knows my needs even before I ever think about them.

That is not to say my mind never wanders in prayer at times, especially when I am really tired. This is my idea of imperfect prayer and I don’t think it is necessarily sinful because we are after all imperfect human beings. That is why I am always dependent on Our Lady to help me out.

But you have to explain what you mean by the terms “simple”, “honest” and “superficial” in your prayers, because these may mean different things to different people.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Jesper,
I do not understand your question fully but I think you are saying that there is no honesty in praying what we do not mean or feel. I ran into this a long time ago when I started the spiritual life and I found a solution that put me at ease because I too did not feel comfortable in being dishonest in my prayers to God. The solution I used is to ask God to make me reach the stage of prayer that I am reciting if I am not there yet. In other words if I see that the prayer does not reflect my state, then I ask God to help me reach the spiritual state reflected in that prayer. For example if I prayed Psalm 63 (see below) and I do not really feel it much, and I know that it is the state of the more perfect, then I ask God to lead me to that state where it will reflect the yearnings of my own soul.

"O God, you are my God--
for you I long!
For you my body yearns;
for you my soul thirsts,
Like a land parched, lifeless,
and without water."

_________________
In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

I prayed for a Ferrari growing up. It never showed up. I guess God in His wisdom saw that it would lead me into sin and so kept it from me. As you say, He does know what we need even before we ask. Still, it WOULD have been cool to get that Ferrari..



...

I understand what you mean about being tired it's like the mind starts 'muttering' or 'clutters things up' that's not what I mean.. I get that too and I don't think God minds that since it seems unintentional I mean I am not tired intentionally I try and avoid it but I know what you mean and sometimes worry that too.

What I mean with superficial is if there is no feeling behind it, then it is like it is just words .. I don't really know if such prayers are pleasing to God, I guess it's the same that happens when one is tired the prayers become superficial. But another aspect is praying with the 'mind' and not the heart. That can seem deep but at the same time there can be problems, like lurking sin etc. I struggle with that at the level I'm at. I try to better myself.



Uhm what I was primarily thinking about was the specific instance of praying for others, for instance when someone is in trouble. Then one can pray superficially or really heartfelt. It seems it almost feels as if only the heartfelt prayers are truly heard, like they 'change the world' almost. I am still too much of a 'mess' to put these things together but I'm trying to follow where my heart leads me, because I feel that is most honest. To me, honesty and simplicity are almost two words for the same thing, because few people (in my experience) can handle complexity very well. I think we should be allowed to be simple because that is the very best for us..

I'm still confused about a lot of this, so trying to gather my thoughts on the issue, thank you for answering, I will read it again and think about it more.

Thank you, God bless.

Jesper

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Jesper B

Jesper,

Funny you mentioned Ferrari. I used an example of praying for a Ferrari (not that she wanted one) in explaining to my niece about prayer when she was 16. I told her God answers all prayers, with no exception, and that when she does not get the Ferrari, it is probably He knows she might just maim or kill herself if she got one. So He answers her prayer by not giving her the Ferrari because He loves her.

In any case, like I said God answers all our prayers.

On whether God listens to a superficial prayer, I’ll share with you my own experience.

There was a time -- a very long period at that -- when I was in the spiritual wilderness (you can call it darkness), but I still attended Sunday Masses because somewhere deep inside I told myself I needed to keep communication lines with God opened. I was physically at Mass but not spiritually, never received the sacraments, maybe for close to 20 years. In a nutshell my connection with God was hanging on a very thin thread, but I think in a way it was a sort of prayer -- to use your terminology, a worse than superficial one.

Now, if there ever was a case of a disastrous prayer anyone can offer God, this was probably it, but He nevertheless still answered me to turn my life around completely. I am convinced no matter how hopeless and non-communicative a prayer we might think it is, God will never reject it. I hope this makes some sense to you.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Yes that is it, that was what I wanted to say.


I am glad to hear I am not alone, sometimes when saying something on forums on finds a lot of if's and sort of's and so on, it is nice to hear different for a change(!). Also because it feels very important to me on a direct spiritual level, as well, so I don't understand why people don't make a bigger deal of it. Thank you for this, it is very nice not to feel alone with wanting to and having to take the letter of the Lord literally (Thou shalt not lie, 'There is an Israelite with no deceit', etc etc). I find the 'so so-ness' spiritually painful, sometimes. But sometimes these things are only revealed with great experience and profound introspection, I know that and I know that's why. I bear no ill will but wish for better direction, sometimes, that's all..


That is an ingenious solution. I am still trying to work with and on the basics but I see this as being a great help in the future, that is certainly one of the best answers I've heard, and in a good while.

Thank you very much, God bless.

Jesper

ps. You mention praying the psalms. I know that is very important, also in the Liturgy of the Hours, and many Christians outside the Catholic Church do as well, across the globe. I have a small reservation perhaps you can answer it, uhm how does putting a lot of emphasis on something in the Old Testament (Moses, David, the prophets) bear on our relationship to the New? Does it put ones relationship with the New Testament in danger? Why not? Anyway it is something I wonder about, not a big concern, but I would like an answer. Is there perhaps a simple answer???

God bless.

Jesper

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Jesper B

I like those reasons very much, I hadn't thought about it like that, I guess some people can handle a Ferrari but some would get killed, since it's a great temptation to go fast, especially for the young and inexperienced. Better to start out with and wreck cheap cars. Maybe the Lord will give it when I have wrecked a lot of those lol? I also think, that since we can't serve God and Mammon, but, they are in fact diametrically opposed, is there any reason to think the Lord would give such things, that would ultimately lead to rebellion against Him, and an eternity in a lake of fire? From that perspective alone, He is kind in saying no, or not answering at all or ignoring those petitions! Also, I reckon God is in the business of making Saints not Ferraris which is far, far better imo


Wow we learn a lot from our downtimes, because the Lord speaks to us through His blessings, but also, when we are in pain, I can relate. I am glad that your prayers, and faithfulness, however strenous you describe them as, were in fact heard and answered bountifully. May you never lose them! Amen.

I will try and remember that even what we consider superficial prayers might be pleasing to the Lord, and subject to being answered. God is love, so why not??

God bless you,

Jesper

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Jesper B

I think that the lessons about human life and about spiritual life that we humans can't learn VICARIOUSLY we are doomed to LEARN THE HARD WAY, by bitter experience.

As human beings we are the living beings on this planet most adapted to be able to share our passions (both concupiscible and irascible) with other living beings. So for example we often feel bad when we see even animals suffering physical pain. Or on the other hand we may be roused to irrational and violent hatred by mob behavior or by slander, etc. As humans we are potentially the most compassionate living beings on the planet. However, it may also happen sometimes that our conscience becomes seared and we temporarily or permanently lose our compassion.

The Psalms in particular and the whole Bible in general speak in various places about all kinds of human experiences more wide ranging than perhaps a lot of us will ever experience. One wonderful thing that the Bible (and the works of many Saints) does is give us the opportunity to learn VICARIOUSLY in a GODLY way about the full range of human experience and passions and how to handle them, like unto Jesus who was tempted in all ways with all human temptations.

I think that in Catholic theology, that among the three capacities of intellect/reason, will, and memory, that IMAGINATION belongs together with MEMORY.

Now on the one hand, the Bible does in St. Paul somewhere speak about 'casting down vain imaginations'. But I'm pretty darn sure that it does not mean to demonize IMAGINATION in general. Notice the word 'vain' in front of imagination.

I think that because of a certain pseudo sophistication and pseudo rationality, many of us 'moderns' would rebel against using IMAGINATION in prayer as being not HONEST. If you consider the matter more realistically you will soon see that if we ever accomplish any goals, worthy or unworthy (vain imaginations), visualizing the goal in the IMAGINATION is always involved. There may be a few exceptions, for example, I don't think imagination increases your odds of winning the lottery much

I believe that imagination is one of the key parts of what is called "mental prayer" in Catholicism. Normally we think of 'mental prayer' as non-vocal prayer, but I think that is an over simplification. So people please don't beat me over the head in what I am about to say. Obviously one can recite prayers out loud in a completely rote manner. I don't think there would be much VICARIOUS 'heart' learning in a rote prayer. I would also ask how much vicarious learning there could be with zero imagination. With zero imagination, the most important mental faculties, namely intellect, will, memory/imagination are detached. Without imagination, the intellect has no concrete objects to "work" with. Only ethereal totally abstract words to juggle. That might qualify as philosophy but hardly qualify as prayer, IMO. Going on autopilot, even without reason, in the case of rote prayer. So I would submit that the key distinction as far as achieving any further conversion of heart (vicarious learning) in prayer is not whether the prayer is vocal or silent, but whether the main mental faculties memory, will, intellect are seriously involved or not.

A couple examples of the fruitful use of imagination in Godly things would be such things as the medieval mystery plays and the praying of the mysteries of the Rosary. These certainly require imagination to have a decent chance of bearing any fruit.

When the Jews recite the Haggadah story of the Passover they always explicitly point out that this story is not only just ancient history but if the faith means anything then the parting of the sea and the thunder at Sinai must become alive TODAY. How else can this have any hope of coming true in any persons life unless he or she can somehow someway however strong or weak visualize this goal in the IMAGINATION?

Why else do we rehearse all the wonders and mysteries of the Old Testament foreshadowing the passion, death, resurrection , etc. during the Easter vigil mass? Is it only to give academic evidence of the prophesies to bolster our intellectual belief? Or is it not also to let us share, with out human faculties of imagination and compassion, the yearning of the creation throughout the ages?

So in a very technical, narrow minded, nit picking sense, all prayer is dishonest until one achieves the beatific vision as a saint in heaven Of course, that's a totally ridiculous position. It's like saying, I'm not going to try to go to college unless I have my Bachelor of Science degree already in my hands!

And if one for whatever reason feels scruples (probably unjustified of course) one can still cry out for HELP to cast this particular mountain at this particular point in my life into the sea.

Or to repeat the second time what Kim said:

_________________
David H.

Here is the answer:

109. Those who pray the psalms in the name of the Church should be aware of their full sense (sensus plenus), especially their Messianic sense, which was the reason for the Church's introduction of the psalter into its prayer. This Messianic sense was fully revealed in the New Testament and indeed was affirmed publicly by Christ the Lord in person when he said to the apostles: "All that is written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled" (Lk 24:44). The best-known example of this Messianic sense is the dialogue in Matthew's Gospel on the Messiah as Son of David and David's Lord, [4] where Ps 110 is interpreted as Messianic.

Following this line of thought, the Fathers of the Church saw the whole psalter as a prophecy of Christ and the Church and explained it in this sense; for the same reason the psalms have been chosen for use in the liturgy. Though somewhat contrived interpretations were at times proposed, in general the Fathers and the liturgy itself had the right to hear in the singing of the psalms the voice of Christ crying out to the Father or of the Father conversing with the Son; indeed, they also recognized in the psalms the voice of the Church, the apostles, and the martyrs. This method of interpretation also flourished in the Middle Ages; in many manuscripts of the period the Christological meaning of each psalm was set before those praying by means of the caption prefixed. A Christological meaning is by no means confined to the recognized Messianic psalms but is given also to many others. Some of these interpretations are doubtless Christological only in an accommodated sense, but they have the support of the Church's tradition.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWGILH.HTM

In that same Instruction you will also notice that personal feelings should not be relevant swhen Praying the Liturgy of teh Hours since it is the Prayer of the Church and not of the individual praying it:

108. Those who pray the psalms in the liturgy of the hours do so not so much in their own name as in the name of the entire Body of Christ. This consideration does away with the problem of a possible discrepancy between personal feelings and the sentiments a psalm is expressing: for example, when a person feels sad and the psalm is one of joy or when a person feels happy and the psalm is one of mourning. Such a problem is readily solved in private prayer, which allows for the choice of a psalm suited to personal feelings. The divine office, however, is not private; the cycle of psalms is public, in the name of the Church, even for those who may be reciting an hour alone. Those who pray the psalms in the name of the Church nevertheless can always find a reason for joy or sadness, for the saying of the Apostle applies in this case also: "Rejoice with the joyful and weep with those who weep" (Rom 12:15). In this way human frailty, wounded by self-love, is healed in
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWGILH.HTM

_________________
In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Buckwheat,
St John of the Cross tells us that those who are to enter contemplation have to quiet all sense perceptions including the imagination (our inner sense). As soon as a person sees that they cannot pray using the imagination (as we do during discursive meditation) then they should not force themselves. The senses are deceiving and we cannot rely on them, or be attached to having them, if we are to progress in the spiritual journey. Naked Faith is what helps us reach union with God.
So the use of the imagination is good for beginners and for those who are not given the grace yet to enter the higher stages of prayer where they cannot meditate anymore (along with other signs).

4. The reason for this is that the imagination cannot fashion or imagine anything beyond what it has experienced through the exterior senses, that is, seen with the eyes, heard with the ears, and so on. At the most it can compose resemblances of these objects that are seen, heard, or felt. But such imitations do not reach a greater being or even as much being as that of the objects of the external senses. Even though individuals may imagine palaces of pearls and mountains of gold - for they have seen gold and pearls - all that is imagined will indeed be less than the essence of a little gold or a pearl. And this is true, even though in the imagination there is a larger quantity and more excellent structure. Since created things, as has been said, have no proportion to God's being, all imaginings fashioned from the likenesses of creatures are incapable of serving as proximate means toward union with God. Rather, as we said, they serve for much less.
............................
6. Many spiritual persons, after having exercised themselves in approaching God through images, forms, and meditations suitable for beginners, err greatly if they do not determine, dare, or know how to detach themselves from these palpable methods to which they are accustomed. For God then wishes to lead them to more spiritual, interior, and invisible graces by removing the gratification derived from discursive meditation. They still try to hold on to these methods, desiring to travel the road of consideration and meditation, using images as before. They think they must always act in this way. Striving hard to meditate, they draw out little satisfaction or none at all. Rather, aridity, fatigue, and restlessness of soul increase in the measure they strive through meditation for that former sweetness, now unobtainable. They will no longer taste that sensible food, as we said, but rather will enjoy another food, more delicate, interior, and spiritual. Not by working with the imagination will they acquire this spiritual nourishment but by pacifying the soul, by leaving it to its more spiritual quiet and repose.
The Ascent of Mount Carmel - Book Two, Chapter 12

_________________
In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Sorry but the above should read:
"So the use of the imagination is good for beginners and for those who are not given the grace yet to enter the higher stages of contemplative prayer where they cannot meditate anymore (along with other signs)."

What I meant by "higher stages of contemplative prayer" is infused and not acquired contemplation. This contemplation is not given to everyone according to St John of the Cross:

For God does not bring to contemplation all those who purposely exercise themselves in the way of the spirit, nor even half. Why? He best knows.
The Dark Night - Book One, Chapter 9

_________________
In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Kim,

I consider myself a beginner.

So what you cited from St. John may not apply to me. At least now.

I think that the Bible says that Jesus taught everything in parables. Parables are not the real thing either, any more than imagination is the 'real thing'. I think one very rational and practical reason for teaching in parables is that the stories are easy to REMEMBER and to arouse the various passions as appropriate. The life of Jesus is the supreme parable and it certainly is real 2000 years ago. But today in this very minute it does not necessarily seem real and alive. Nevertheless it may come alive in the process of people following His commandments.

What I was trying to bring out is that imagination has acquired an undeserved bad connotation. But without imagination, scientific discoveries would be impossible, just for one example. I think Einstein used the term "thought experiment"? Unfortunately we often think of imagination in terms such as an animated cartoon by Walt Disney such as 'Fantasia'.

Take another example, the practice of the presence of God. It doesn't necessitate that we try to conjure up an image of Jesus or God the Father, etc. We don't always have to visualize the face of a person to feel as if somebody either known or unknown is in our vicinity. Would it really be accurate or fair to claim that such a feeling of presence involves absolutely ZERO IMAGINATION? IMO, the answer would be NO. At the very least it would seem somehow to involve the memory of past experiences in which a person was actually sitting or standing nearby in our presence. Memory is the same type of mental faculty as imagination. And in fact, as is shown in cases of eyewitness testimony in court cases, sometimes the two get mixed up.

I think that some of the Church Fathers recommend that believers make the sign of the cross when beginning or changing to a new or another action throughout the day. This also is a form of prayer.

The Jews wore phylacteries on their arms and on their heads when praying. I don't think that Jesus criticized this exercise per se. To me this would make a lot of sense, i.e. physically placing the Word of God on your body (in a little box), to help one to pray. He just criticized wearing long tassels and big phylacteries for show. I think that the church stopped this practice early on because there was a danger of thinking the passkey to heaven is merely ritual observances regardless of repentance and conversion, etc. But the church did NOT outlaw sacramentals, such as the sign of the cross, but in fact made up new ones, e.g. stations, etc.

Keep in mind, that I am talking more or less about lower levels of prayer. OTOH I would hesitate for example to say that when Isaiah saw the train of the Lord filling the temple and the seraphim singing Holy Holy Holy, which I suppose that one could argue some elements of imagination, that it was a 'lower form of prayer'.

To give another example, I'm guessing that even advanced contemplatives sometimes pray for the friends, families, etc. and that when doing so it's not especially done in the formless, image-less, memory-less absolute abstract? In other words not done with any flicker of imagination or memory.

I'm not trying to argue against contemplative prayer at all. But when you [not me ] go to climb El Capitan in Yosemite, you don't normally jump out of a plane or shoot out of a cannon onto the bare rock face and immediately start climbing without any training or advanced climbing equipment. Only spider man does.

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David H.

David,
Memory and imagination are different. Memory is the ability to recall information known previously while imagination is the ability to form mental images or concepts when they are not seen by the eyes or sensed by the other senses.
Also, one does not have to be a beginner in the spiritual life to not have contemplation. Advanced souls that are not called to contemplation will still use their imagination when praying.

The reason I bring this up is because I want to make it clear that there exists prayers without the use of the imagination such as in infused contemplation. There is infused knowledge (to the intellect) and infused love (to the will) without the use of images.
The vision of Isaiah could have been an intellectual vision (without the use of the imagination) and not necessarily an imaginative vision.

_________________
In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Is there some connection perhaps between imagination and empathy? Perhaps there are two kinds of imagination, one intellectual and one of the heart. One could say that intellectual imagination leads to innovation and intellectual rewards, whereas the 'imagination of the heart' leads to compassion and joy in the good that others have.

Are there different kinds of imagination? Isn't empathy also a form of imagination? A putting oneself in the shoes of another even?

God bless,

Jesper

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Jesper B

I think what you say is quite accurate and probably very obvious from the dictionary definitions.

However, the idea of an intimate connection between memory and imagination is not my own. I read about it recently in some Catholic source recently but can't remember where at the moment

But I think the following quote from the old Catholic Encyclopedia will show what I mean by an "intimate connection" between memory and imagination:

I hope to show that it may not necessarily be always helpful to postulate an absolute and inviolable and impenetrable wall of separation between memory and imagination.
For example, one may remember a dream , at least in part. The objects in a dream are NOT physical sense objects.
For example, one may remember something not real that never existed in the external physical world past or present that one has imagined in the past, not in a dream state, but perhaps in daydreaming. In short, remembering an imagination.
I believe that high tech modern brain scans also tend to corroborate a closer relationship between memory and imagination. Just from a simple minded engineering design point of view it would not make a lot of sense for God and mother nature (or however you want to call it) to have created completely separate redundant mechanisms for doing basically the same task, no?

Suppose for example that in praying a certain prayer one imagines oneself standing at the foot of the cross with Mary and John. After a while one might "get in the habit" of praying with this visualization. So after it becomes a solid habit, is it a memory or an imagination or both? I hope you get the idea that I'm trying to bring across. Namely that the situation is maybe not so cut and dried as we might think at first glance.

Also what about very vivid sometimes lifelike memories that might be stimulated by brain stimulation during brain surgery? What would you call it if the subject can't distinguish it from current reality?

Perhaps this post has gone off topic? Nevertheless, I think that one of my main points was to argue that imagination is not necessarily DISHONEST and that therefore it may validly be used in prayer without unnecessary scruples. Wow does that ever sound like a backhanded compliment Sounds like something you wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole but you probably wouldn't call a SWAT team to handle

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David H.

Sounds plausible. But I couldn't quote any source to back it up.

Probably better tho' to stick to classic books on prayer. Theological and / or scientific speculation doesn't seem likely to help much in prayer life.

But incidentally the neurological discovery of "mirror neurons" might be of interest to those curious about the scientific side:

_________________
David H.

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David H.

Jesper
Compassion was covered by St Thomas Aquinas and he says that there are two types; on in the "passions: and one in the "reason". He goes on to say that the one using "reason" is the only one that God and the Heavenly beings would have since they have no "passions". We can experience both but those who reached the state where their passions have no influence on them will experience this compassion more in their "reason".

_________________
In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas