Catholic Online Forum

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Seems like a two edged sword

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Rats. I was sort of thinking Cardinal Pell would be a good pope, but I guess that scuttles his chances, doesn't it? Everybody will be mad at him.

I have already said that I worry about the precedent of a pope retiring. Maybe there will be a move towards having confidence votes in the college of cardinals every so often... that sort of thing.

However, Pope Benedict looked just about all done in yesterday. I bet he was sooo glad to get to Castel Gandolfo and take off those red shoes.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

I too felt that the butler had been left off too lightly.However we were graced with a very brilliant scholar and a very humble man.People who govern a huge body like the church will always have their critics.The wearer knows where the shoe pinches-criticizing the Pope Emeritus publicly is in bad taste.Which organisation does not have disagreements ?Do we wash our dirty linen in public?We are all human and make small mistakes inspite of the very best of intentions.

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Simon

Grace,
Cardinal Pell is a brave man for saying the truth. Hopefully not everybody will be mad at him but just those in the Curia.
I like Cardinal Pell a lot because of the work he's done toward restoring the sense of the sacred in the OF liturgy and his support of the EF. But he's so far away from Rome and may be lacking in the undefinable "Romanitas" that is so cherished in the inner circle of the Vatican. Also, as Seamus and Simon said, he's the only Cardinal-elector from Oceania and may have too few supporters from the other regions.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

While I'm as skeptical of the Vatican's PR people as anyone (again, going to back to the adamant denials that John Paul had Parkinsons in clear contravention to anyone who knew anything about the disease), let's look at what Cardinal Pell actually said:



Slight. SLIGHT.

So of course the media leaves out "slight" and goes with "destabilizing", as if the stability of the Church itself is threatened by this move.

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Jeff Stevens

Good point. The media will seize on and twist anything to get a story. They really are not serving the common good when they do this.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

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Simon

That's good.

I cannot tell you how many times I've seen "bark of Peter" in the last 2 weeks.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Well, it did start in the first official translation.

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Jeff Stevens

Marie – is suggesting the Pope was a better theologian than a leader seem to be stating a fact or is it an opinion? To me this is not stating the "truth".

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BobB

Fiat voluntas tua

Of course that may have been his intention.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Do you know why the Butler did what he did?

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Jeff Stevens

Grace,



As His Eminence put it himself, "A win on a coutry track on a weekday doesn't make you a Melbourne Cup contender".

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Jeff,



It was the media who reported the "slight". You only know he said it because it was reported in the media.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

No I am a person who would never dream of leaking secrets even if I disagreed.For example I feel that Bradley Manning could have leaked the video of "collateral murder" but not anything else.If he gets the death penalty he deserves it.I have had access to a lot of confidential information about people I knew but I have accessed it beyond my work.
I could never leak secrets of the Church to anyone.I believe we are all human and make big mistakes-like Card Roger Mahoney.If I were to work with such a man I would have left associating with him.
Benedict XVI is such a scholar that I would never question him or his manner of functioning.I still have a lot of subservience in me when it comes to people I respect.If I don't like someone in the Church I distance myself but never betray him or her.
There is a priest who does not believe in celibacy and wishes he could marry but I have have not reported him to his superior.
So I have not read much about the butler but I remember that he wanted to excite a debate

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Simon

Maybe.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Bob,
I think Cardinal Pell was stating a fact - a fact like the proverbial "elephant in the room."

I don't see it as an attack on Papa Bene's skill as theologian vs. leader of the Church. Cardinal Pell has pointed out that the Pope is old and frail, may even be sick.

(For all his popularily and my own fondness of Bl. Pope John Paul II, I think he was not as great a helmsman as we'd have wished, either - Having left the Liturgy in complete disarray while he traveled all over the world fighting communism during his long pontificate. But that's beside the point.)

IMO, Papa Bene's skill (or perceived lack of it) in governing Vatican state is not nearly as important as him restoring the sense of the sacred in the Liturgy. The Liturgy is what saves the world. It's the source and summit of our lives, the font of all sacramental graces. It's what touches every single one of us who lives outside of the Vatican. So what he has accomplished for the Liturgy is what makes Pope Benedict great.

But back to Cardinal Pell, perhaps his favorability rating among the other Cardinals has not quite diminished. (Or maybe he has not much to lose.) In fact, a couple of American Cardinals actually seem to be defending his point of view - or at least trying to explain what he meant:

Cdls. Pell, Dolan, O'Malley, etc.



Prescribing medicine to a debilitating and demoralizing condition may even be seen as a kind of kindness.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Marie,
I do agree with a lot of what you say about how Pope Benedict has addressed the Liturgy in such a beneficial way. That and his writings are what make him great, so we are in agreement.

I still see the suggestions around weakness in leadership made by Bishop Pell as opinion and not fact, which I happened to not agree with.

I also believe that managerial or administrative skills are not the same as leadership skills. I think about how St. Peter and St. Paul fought openly. One could suggest that maybe St. Peter could have been better at managing the disagreements, but I still think he probably was a very effective leader.

Thanks for addressing my point.

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BobB

Fiat voluntas tua

Marie,



And won.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Would you believe I woke up thinking about this. Why did they do that since Catholic moral teaching says the end doesn't justify the means?

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Bob,
If the difference is what you meant, then I agree with you.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Management and Leadership are two terms often used synonymously, however a person manages assets, and leads people. There is some crossover of course is that good workers are also assets.

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Bob C

Grace,



Enough of John Paul II's Parkinson's - let's remember happier times.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_ ... 27s_health

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Friends,

In reading the linked article by John Cornwell below, I'd like to suggest that the reader:

1. First brush away the thick layers of sensationalism.

2. Note that most people referred to in the article remain unnamed, except for former President of the Vatican Bank, Archbishop Paul Marcinkus, who is placed in a bad light.

3. Note that the author of this article is also the author of the controversial book, "Hitler’s Pope" about Pope Pius XII. (Cromwell later REPUDIATED his own criticism of Pope Pius XII, saying, "I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler's Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war." Perhaps Cromwell will later repudiate what he now writes about Benedict's own "silence" but for now, give him the benefit of a doubt.)

Having taken all that precautions, this article argues that Pope Benedict maybe a martyr of the Papacy. That view is augmented by former Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, former head of the Catholic Church in England, who declares that the Vatican must "put its own house in order".



Maybe Murphy-O'Connor and Pell have different reasons for "criticizing the Pope", but at least they agree on one thing: "those surrounding the Pope had failed to support him in his ministry." Isn't the corruption in the curia the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about? (I will also grant that in a roundabout way, Cardinal Pell might just be mourning the Pope's sudden resignation.)

So why does Pell get media flack and Murphy-O'Connor doesn't? Is it because Pell is an elector and Murphy-O'Connor isn't?

FILTH in the VATICAN

Saint Peter Damian, pray for us!

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

It's not only the sede that is vacante; somebody's diary is empty.

http://www.sydneycatholic.org/people/ar ... ents.shtml

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

LOL!

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Thank you, Bob.

Cardinal Pell was among Pope Benedict's most energetic and most ardent co-workers (in Vox Clara) in reforming the Novus Ordo Mass by putting back the "sense of the sacred" in the new English translations. Cardinal Pell is also a staunch supporter of Summorum Pontificum.

For that matter, I can not see Cardinal Pell severely attacking Pope Benedict's managerial style, just to put his legacy down. Perhaps Cardinall Pell, like most of us, was just shaken and heartbroken to see him go, and was anxious for what his abdication might cause the Church. Which, I think, is perfectly understandable. I'll give Cardinal Pell a pass on this one.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

The first problem I have with Cornwell is his view that Benedict longed to be Pope. It seems that every other indication is that he did not want to be pope. It makes sense given his sensibilities that he would not covet that position.

I profess to not understanding how a Pope cannot just clean up the curia left and right if he so chooses. I don't mean now if Pope Benedict XVI is too unhealthy, but before when he became Pope. Why couldn't he just clean house? I'm not faulting him but I honestly don't understand the problem.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,



To a certain extent I believe he did. As I said in another thread last year



viewtopic.php?f=55&t=65590&p=841891&hilit=bartolucci#p841891

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

SERIOUSLY?! You posted a hit-job piece by the Catholic-hater Cornwell, the guy who wrote Hitler's Pope, which is a bunch of lies and trash?!

That is an obvious fabrication of his hateful mind. Like the entire piece. The problem is that many people will read it and believe it.

I can't believe we are discussing this. Well... I'm NOT going to beyond this post. I'm out of here for a while.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

I'm sorry, Grace, but I did warn you.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

What are we discussing here? That Pope Benedict had a less than ideal Curia bureaucracy that wounded his otherwise sterling papacy. Cardinal Pell and retired Cardinal Murphy OConnor both noted it (among others) which seemed to have placed Pell in danger of becoming a persona non grata among his peers?

It's unfortunate, and it's not the Pope emeritus' fault, and it may not have anything to do with his governing style at all. My point is that the scandals have marred the face of the Church and even Pope Benedict had acknowledged it. Cardinal Pell merely said what many have been thinking all along.

Maybe the AP will have more credibility than Cornwell:

POPE REFLECTS ON CORRUPTION

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Ah yes, an excellent cover. Shame they left it out of the HEADLINE. That's kind of important in terms of what the reader takes away from the piece, no?

Oh, I'm sorry, it was ABC. That explains much.

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Jeff Stevens

Val,

That was a common interpretation by the media during the last Conclave - Having heard the impressive homily (delivered in Latin) by then Cardinal Ratzinger at the pre-Conclave Mass, where he said the biggest problem in the world today was the "dictatorship of relativism." (If I remember correctly.)

Quite a few in the media interpreted that homily as Ratzinger's "campaign speech," and it may well be what moved the Cardinals to vote him as Pope. But I think he actually meant it to be his farewell address as Dean of the Sacred College, before he retire for good and go home to Bavaria.

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Marie,



http://www.vatican.va/gpII/documents/ho ... 18_en.html

It is often forgotten that each year for the last three years of Bl John Paul II's pontificate Cardinal Ratzinger offered his resignation as Prefect of the CDF, explaining that he wanted to go back home to Regensburg and write two or three books. Thrice his resignation was refused with the words "Joseph, I need you".

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Are we quibbling over spelling now? I believe that either "barque" or "bark" is an acceptable variant.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,



That is true... in the United States.

To anyone living in the civilised world (those places where cricket is played) "bark" looks decidedly wrong.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

I think you got that backwards.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

Where I am the correct spelling is barque.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... e?q=barque

(You can click on "US English" for the American.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

You do realize that Cricket is played in the US?

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Bob C

Bob,

Test Cricket.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

...you misspelled "civilized".

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Rob

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

No thanks.

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Bob C

James,

That was one of Benedict's most brilliant moves! Which just shows he had placed great priority on the spiritual welfare of the people over world or curia politics.

Changing one Marini for the other pretty much took care of those ugly ethnic Offertory dances and topless return-to-paganism lectresses in some pre-Benedictine papal Masses. (Okay, just one JPII Mass - in Papua, New Guinea in 1984.) But still!

Did you say, James, that Pope Benedict was planning on issuing something like "Redemptoris Sacramentum" on Liturgical Music? I suppose we won't see it now? One of the reasons why it's so heartbreaking to see him go - the "Reform of the reform" isn't quite finished yet.

I really hope someone whose heart is in the right place as regards the Holy Mass takes over where Benedict left. Maybe Cardinal Ranjit of Sri Lanka or Cardinal Arinze of Nigeria?

Or, Cardinal Pell of Australia! Now, that'll be really cool!

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Pax et bonum,
Marie

JMJ

Marie,



Don't forget the Indian erotic temple dancers at Bl Teresa of Calcutta's beatification.



Yes, a great pity that remains unfinished. Perhaps the new pope will also see the need for it?

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)