Catholic Online Forum

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/storie ... 204884.htm

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

But note that insurance does not supply health care. To provide adequate health care to all requires a major expansion of health care workers and facilities. If this is a requirement, who is required to supply it - Government, Church, private charity?

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Preferably, in reverse order of the above, as in all things.

To use an analogy, while it would be preferable for more local organizations to provide security, it is not practical to rely on county-based militias in the modern world. So we delegate that function to the nation-state government.

We may find that it is impractical for either the Church or the localities or private charities to ensure all receive health care services. At which point that leaves only the larger governments as the last resort.

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Jeff Stevens

As with anything and everything --all that the Church teaches provides the proper context on this.

The government attempt; through Obamacare; to redefine, commoditize, and redistribute 'health' is pure evil.

Abortion and homosexual sex are not health -they are death!

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

I am changing my thoughts on this subject. First, let me say that I think Obamacare is a disaster, an insurance/IRS racket that will not benefit the people.
However, if education is public and people generally accept it should be provided by the government, why not health care? When it has got to the point that one severe accident or illness can leave a person/family homeless, something is seriously wrong with the system. I would rather have "free" (government) healthcare than education.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Through big government, public education has been transformed into a disaster.

Why stop with 'health' care -what about energy, food, and housing? Not to worry, big government already progresses in these areas as well.

Forward -Winning the Future.

The leftist conclusion in summary is that the government has not thrown enough money at these complex issues and as well that government does not yet have enough control to solve these complex issues.

Thanks but no thanks...

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

That heath is a universal good to be defended and not commoditized to the extent that it is a good reserved to a few rather than a universal good to be guaranteed and defended is not a prescription for socialized medicine under a Welfare State. It does not alter the realities of how systems of heath care can and do arise and persist in society - the necessities and mechanisms or means of production of heath care and its advance. Nor does it contradict the principle of subsidiarity or individual rights and responsibilities under the natural law.

It provokes the discussion by free people of their individual and collective responsibilities to seek the proper methods to guarantee access to affordable health care for all, including the means to provide it to those who lack for the resources to participate ordinarily. It cannot be deemed rationally, in light of Church teaching, to be a call for the summary destruction of health care outside of that which is provided as a government service nor even the normalization of health care as a government service (HaaGS).

Pax et bonum

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

In the American experiment we have a hybrid heath care system, one in which government programs such as Medicaid (62 million people) and CHIP (10 million) provide government funded health care to the poor (loosely defined) and Medicare (50 million) to the elderly, laws which bind providers to provide immediate care without regard for the ability to pay, VA benefits (22 million) and under Tricare (10 million) for those who serve and have served in our nation's armed forces, and then there is the system of private insurance, which alone accounts for roughly the other half.

Problems faced under this model include:

1. Rising health care costs outpacing inflation and wages.
2. Rising cost of government provided health care benefits, consuming a very large part of government expenditures which combined, far exceed revenues collected.
3. Cost shifting from government provided health care services to private insurance premiums, effectively taxing private insurance which already faces significant market-based pressures.
4. High cost of private insurance and universal access to immediate care results in individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid opting out of paying for coverage, putting additional cost pressure on government provided and private insurance.
5. Medicare does not cover many health expenses common to the age group it supports so many elderly end up on Medicaid after exhausting their private estate in retirement. In fact, fully two-thirds of Medicaid costs are consumed by those 65 and over.
6. Federal and state government regulation drastically limit private sector insurance options and ingenuity. Private insurance is in no way a free market option in the United States.
7. The consumer population for private insurance is often faced with one to few appropriate care options through their employer.
8. Recent comprehensive regulation is resulting in a higher than estimated cost increase, both to the public (3 x plus) and private sector, and employers are dropping coverage or changing benefit schemes to reduce benefits and increase costs for employees.

Pax et bonum

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

9. Physicians are being driven away from participation in government programs in record numbers: http://www.physicianspractice.com/six-m ... e-patients

Pax et bonum,

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

It makes no sense to assert on one hand, health care is a universal good that should be provided to all, and on the other hand, we oppose any method whatsoever of actually providing it. We wait until saints and angels provide it, when they will.

Arwen makes a good point about education and medicine. And if American public schools have their weaknesses, it is NOT because of federal interference. Schools are funded by local property tax and controlled by individual states and local school boards. You could even say, we have absolutely insured there will always be a gap between schools for the wealthy and schools for the poor- just look at the surrounding real estate which is the tax base.

In a similar way, with health care, I still see my same doctors as before Obamacare. They are not employees of the government and do business the same as before. None of my aunts or uncles have been denied care by death panels. There are certain features in Obamacare regarding which I admit Catholics have grounds for complaint, mostly matters such as abortion which were grounds for complaint before Obamacare. But I have not been persuaded that it is a great victory for satan, that some poor child has health care this year who didn't have it before.

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Charles MacKenzie

"For nature is one with rapine, a harm no preacher can heal;
The Mayfly is torn by the swallow, the sparrow spear'd by the shrike,
And the whole little wood where I sit is a world of plunder and prey."
-Tennyson

Charles,

What does the Church assert? Does it call for universal access to care, for authentic human development to produce a fair, equitable, and moral system of care or does it call on government to provide health care to all?

I interpret the Church, in context, calls for the former, not the latter.

Pax et bonum,

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

Charles,

The most comprehensive aspects of Obama Care will not be implemented until 2014 so we have to reserve judgement in terms of our individual care and any changes that might take place but for now, the main consequence has been higher than normal increases in premiums and some businesses beginning to get out of providing health care and preferring to pay the fine which is considerably lower than health insurance premiums. Wait until health insurers are forced to take people with pre-existing conditions who may have had a chance to buy insurance but decided against it, get sick and get care. Someone will have to pay for that increased cost to insurers.

As to the death panels, I'm not sure I ever understood entirely what that was about. End of life discussions already take place between physicians, families and patients and hospice or a cessation of care are discussed.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Yes, but neither the system now in place nor the Obamacare to come produce fair, equitable, and moral systems of care.
Did the Church call on government to provide education for all? If not, then why isn't everybody against that? The government could have, instead of providing healthcare, provided mechanisms to make sure that the system was fair and affordable, but it didn't. For example, capping the exorbitant medical malpractice awards.

I agree with Charles that the bad parts of public education in the U.S. are not a result of it simply being public. It is because the NEA has been hijacked by liberals and be special-interest groups. The whole federal government has been hijacked by Big Lobbying. It didn't have to have worked out that way. Something happened in the 60s that made it academically fashionable to churn out textbooks that were anti-American and anti-Western culture, and a whole slew of problems were created.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace,

Have you looked to encyclicals that address public schools? We've had some discussions here regarding them. I gather some find them overly harsh and outdated, so not to be taken too seriously considering public school is now so normal and widely accepted, and clearly a matter of prudential judgement, but I find them rather enlightening and true as ever, especially looking back with over a century of experience, to see the objections raised then become the new normal, yet people wonder how we got here...

Pax et bonum,

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

Brian,

I understand the distinction you're making. I wouldn't try to interpret what the Church asserts.

It does seem that in the quote in the first post in this thread, health care is seen as a universal good which should be available to all. While this quote does not specify a method for accomplishing this, I accept for the sake of discussion that action by churches or other charitable groups would be preferable, or perhaps economic conditions in which everyone could afford insurance. I didn't mean to suggest the Church calls for governments to provide health care.

In view of the reality of some 40 to 50 million without healthcare coverage, I would say I am less inclined to argue about the method by which this healthcare is accomplished.

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Charles MacKenzie

"For nature is one with rapine, a harm no preacher can heal;
The Mayfly is torn by the swallow, the sparrow spear'd by the shrike,
And the whole little wood where I sit is a world of plunder and prey."
-Tennyson

In the end it always works out that way, it is the nature of man -absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Rather than bemoan not having the favor of the tyrant on 'our side' my position is that the tyrant itself is the problem...

Limited government with checks and balances was not originally instituted without good reason. America the great experiment has been severely corrupted by power hungry self serving and morally devoid unprincipled public 'servants'...

I do not concern myself with just how they can 'get it right' but rather just how I can dethrone them...

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Health care for all? What a revolutionary idea!

Resign yourself, folks : we have a liberal pope!

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Ma mission [est] de faire aimer le bon Dieu comme je l'aime. (Sainte Thérèse de l'Enfant-Jésus) My mission is to have God loved as I love Him.

Charles,

We know the end, even a good end, doesn't justify the means. Isn't it a principal purpose of this forum to come to a better understanding of what the Church teaches? Especially where it isn't easy...


Pax et bonum,

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

While all may agree on an ends -even one that is by any stretch of the imagination Utopian it is the means that is argued and debated.

Hitler & Stalin both started with noble ends. It was primarily those unconcerned with the means, the useful idiots, that propelled evil into power.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Food for all as well. Neither is advocacy for the evil means that leftists promote.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

No. I quick search gives me 18 possible reads. I guess I'll try Divini Illius Magistri and Spectata Fides first -- unless you suggest a better one?

But as you said, public education seems here to stay. It is relatively easy to opt out of the system and home school (depending which country), but it is impossible to opt out of the health care system around us. I can teach my child at home, but I cannot change my husband's heart valve.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Christian Scientists opt out.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Daniel,



Interesting. I don't think I've ever heard America called "the great experiment". People in Sweden often refer to "the great experiment".



Wow! I think you're the only person I know of who'd say something that decidedly odd.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Alexis de Tocqueville ring a bell?



I guess you have revealed your peers.

Power is often amassed by liars -liars preaching noble ends to mobs of useful idiots e.g. "Winning the Future" & "Forward"

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

As an aside, both Hitler & Stalin were nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. No doubt, nominated by members of the useful idiot crowd.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Daniel,

Just as a point of fact about the nomination of Hitler, the official website of the nobel prize (nobelprize.org) has this to say:



Not that I'm particularly defending the Nobel prize process. Arafat won, Obama did nothing and won..it's almost meaningless at this point.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Maybe nobody expected those nominations to be taken seriously and things just sort of got out of hand.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Daniel,



So? Anyone can be nominated; actually getting it is another matter.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Grace,



The 1994 prize was awarded to Yasser Arafat, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin jointly.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize_controversies

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Daniel,



I've absolutely no idea what that is supposed to mean.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I think this topic is too important to be derailed by a discussion of the Nobel prize. Does anyone have a thought on the topic in the subject line?

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,



I think his meaning is clear. Health care is a right, not a privilege for those who happen to be able to afford it. That would seem to imply some system of universal health care.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Too important an opportunity?

A thought? I would suggest that all would agree on the end. It is the means to the end which some purposely avoid and or ignore discussing.

It is my opinion that not opposing evil is in essence assisting evil.



We discuss among other things Evangelization -the mission of the Church --compassion, sacrifice, charity, and salvation -individual NOT collective salvation.

The question one must ask is what are YOU doing and why? What is the Church doing -what are some examples AND how can one help the Church with this effort.

Where is this discussion? Why point to a statement without the full context of Church teaching let alone some examples of Church actions? Why state nothing regarding the Church YET by default imply or even claim government holds the key?

I know why...



Obamacare is NOT the answer. In fact, government is NOT the answer...

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Excellent questions.

I am glad that our parishes are willing to pay for child care for any woman who is pregnant and unable to afford care for their children. But what am I doing individually? Good question indeed. I have no good answer for me.

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Jeff Stevens

Certainly.

The question, of course, is, "What means are permissible?" Is single payer a permissible option? What about fully socialized medicine? Is government the only institution that can, practically, accomplish this goal of the Pope's? If I understand correctly, every government capable of making this a reality within its jurisdiction supports the option of abortion. So is it reasonable to invest such organizations with a monopoly on either paying for health services or providing health services?

I tend to think not. Voucher programs are one option. VBGPI (Very Basic Government Provided Insurance) is another.

But we had this discussion before now that I look back on it. And we came to no coherent and summarizable guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable. I was hoping to steer the conversation in that direction.

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,



I don't see how the right to health care can be guaranteed by anything less than a system of universal health care. As I mentioned in the other thread, it is perfectly possible for Catholic hospitals (and others) to operate within a system of universal health care.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

If that is the case, one wonders how we might have missed universal food, universal clothing, and universal shelter?

Pax et bonum,

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

And of the right to life? Surely it is not the government of abortion worshipers that holds the path to my salvation...

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

James,

When you say "universal health care", presumably you mean government assuring that care? If so, why is that the only option?

And how is that impacted by the connection between (nearly?) every government and abortion?

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Jeff Stevens

What other entity could possibly assure universal health care? Could/would privately held corporations do it? Could/would the Catholic Church, or some ecumenical organization do it? If it attempted on a piecemeal basis by many organizations the resulting care will surely be uneven to say the least.

If you restrict the meaning of universal (which is hyperbole anyway) then state or local governments could possibly do it.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I don't know. I'm asking those who believe it must be government-ensured (e-ensured, not i-insured) as opposed to by other means to make the case that it must be done by the government.

The principle of subsidiarity would seem to require us to have a very compelling reason why it must be done by a large government entity before embarking on that course.

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Jeff Stevens

As I said, I think if it were done by many small entities, the results would be far from universal in terms of quality or availability. Can you think of any examples where a multitude of small entities provide universal anything?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Why do you think that?

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Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

I think an argument that the government should do it is this- everyone else who might do it has left the job undone. How many decades do how many millions have to go without healthcare, before we conclude that apparently existing organizations are not going to do it, for whatever reasons... If people were doing these superior non-governmental methods, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But when I say the government should "do it" I don't mean the government should own hospitals or employ doctors and nurses. I think the doing we are talking about is in the structure, the rules (e.g. cannot deny pre-existing conditions), and the payment mechanisms...

I realize that many here at COL feel strongly that any government involvement is inherently evil. But the way I see it, the pre-Obamacare situation was also a moral evil, a failure to make available healthcare universally, and a sin in which we have all participated. Some seem to write as if we would only be responsible for changes to the status quo, but we are squeaky clean and saintly when we sit on our hands and do nothing.

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Charles MacKenzie

"For nature is one with rapine, a harm no preacher can heal;
The Mayfly is torn by the swallow, the sparrow spear'd by the shrike,
And the whole little wood where I sit is a world of plunder and prey."
-Tennyson

What Charles said, if they were going to do it they would have done it.

I asked if you could think of any examples of a consistent, universally accessible product or service provided by many small entities. Maybe there are some, but I can't think of any. Fast food? Clothing? Insurance? Auto repair?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Does it matter at all that what we call health care is a relatively new phenomenon largely created by private interactions? Good health is not a new phenomenon, but modern medicine is.

Pax et bonum,

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-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

According to the CBO, thirty million will continue to be uninsured under ObamaCare (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare ... 00173.html), I don't know what percentage of Americans that represents and another 12 million illegal aliens will be uninsured. That really isn't universal coverage.

Under the previous system, over 80% of Americans had insurance, at least before the recession. The vast majority of them were happy with it. People who think the government care will avoid the problem of insurance companies denying care have obviously never dealt with government provided care. I have, extensively and there are more things not covered than under any insurance program I have every had. Having employers provide most of the insurance wasn't ideal but on the other hand, it didn't work that badly. I don't know how many people chose not to have insurance when they could have taken steps to obtain it but it's pretty substantial in my world and I have read that it's a large percentage in the macro world but don't have those figures or know where they came from when conservatives quote them.

Profound suffering has occurred with people who would have purchased insurance if they could but were unemployed temporarily and either couldn't afford COBRA (for non Americans, employers are required to continue to offer coverage for 18 months but the unemployed person has to pay the premium) or their COBRA ran out and they may have had pre-existing conditions and were unable to obtain it in the market. For myself, I always tried to live in such a way that I could afford coverage under
COBRA but I always assumed I'd get another job which didn't happen when my coverage ran out and I didn't qualify even for a very large deductible insurance. So, there were problems but I'm not sure smaller entities couldn't have covered as much a percentage of those uninsured under the previous system or a smaller involvement of government than Obama care could have worked. Perhaps when a person was unemployed they could have some sort of temporary help from the government.

There is also the issue of the lack of sufficient physicians to treat the newly insured and there isn't much the government can do about it. I think one advantage of the Canadian system is that is covers the big things pretty well but there's a fair amount of evidence that it doesn't cover the small things as well. For instance, in some provinces, there are 8 psychiatrists for 100,000 people. Not that mental health is a small thing but I mean by big things the sort of problems that result in devastation for families.

I have said before that I have access to regular care for a relatively small amount of money and it's excellent care with top doctors, especially my psychiatrist who has high positions in the various hospitals he has worked in and my pain man. That care comes from a combo of doctors giving me breaks and drug companies supplying expensive drugs. If something big happens, I can get care from any hospital until I'm stable whether that means overnight care or weeks. As a poor person, it wouldn't break me because I would file BK. But it would break people with enough assets to cover the bill. Though it seems likely the majority could also file BK. It's not true that you can never get credit after a BK though I do acknowledge that it is a difficult choice and not the ideal situation. But again, government can perhaps step in, in a limited way. The husband of a friend of mine surpassed his million dollar limit on his insurance with a devastating illness that kept him in ICU for months. He received top notch care from a top notch hospital and special, emergency help was obtained though medicaid to continue to care for him. His wife continues to live in their home and has not been financially wiped out. So, there are options.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Val,

I disagree with a lot of what you said, including much of what the opinion piece you linked to claims, and that the vast majority of the insured were happy with their care before Obamacare.

But this thread is not about the virtues or lack thereof of Obamacare.

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Jeff Stevens

Val:

2012 List of Countries by Population

US = 314,826,000

314, 826,000 / 30.000.000 = 9.5%

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.