Catholic Online Forum

The first interactive Catholic Forum on the web
It is currently 21 May 2013 07:54

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 01:16 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 23:35
Posts: 5278
Location: Europe
What do you think about this by the director of the Press Office of the Holy See?
Do we assume that the Pope agrees with him? I have seen headlines such as "Gun control: Church firmly, quietly opposes firearms for civilians," but thought I would go with this story.

This reminds me of some of the immigration debates, where some priests/bishops say one thing and others say something else. In the end, I gave up even thinking much about that since I am not in a position to influence laws anyway, I decided it is just something beyond my sphere of influence. I suppose gun laws are, too, but I hate confusion, and would like to know what you all think about this? And the USCCB has said something, but that didn't get much discussion in the other thread on guns.

Lombardi editorial: Against arms

Because it is short, here is the complete translation of his editorial:
Quote:
The initiatives announced by the United States government in view of limiting and controlling the diffusion and use of arms are certainly a step in the right direction. It is estimated that Americans today possess about 300 million firearms. No one can be under the illusion that limiting their number and use would be enough to impede horrendous massacres in the future, such as the one in Newtown, which shook the conscience of Americans and of the world, of children and adults alike. But it would be much worse if we were to satisfy ourselves with only words. And if the massacres are carried out by people with mental illness or distorted by hate, there is no doubt that they are carried out with arms. Forty-seven religious leaders of various confessions and religions have issued a call to American politicians to limit firearms, which “are making society pay an unacceptable price in terms of massacres and senseless deaths”. I’m with them.

But while American society is engaged in this debate of dutiful civil and moral growth, we cannot but widen our gaze to recall that arms, throughout the world, are also instruments for legitimate defense, but surely they are everywhere the main instruments used to bring threats, violence and death. Therefore, it is necessary to repeat tirelessly our calls for disarmament, to oppose the production, trade, and smuggling of arms of all types, fuelled by dishonourable interests for power or financial gain. If results are achieved, such as international conventions, the ban of landmines and other deadly arms, the reduction of the immense and disproportionate number of nuclear warheads…all the better! But weapons are and will always be too many. As the Pope said while travelling to Lebanon, we are all distraught by the massacres in Syria, but the weapons continue to arrive. Peace is born from the heart, but it will be easier to achieve if we have fewer weapons in hand.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 05:46 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008 20:47
Posts: 3591
Location: Southwestern PA
Arwen wrote:
What do you think about this by the director of the Press Office of the Holy See?
Do we assume that the Pope agrees with him? I have seen headlines such as "Gun control: Church firmly, quietly opposes firearms for civilians," but thought I would go with this story.

This reminds me of some of the immigration debates, where some priests/bishops say one thing and others say something else. In the end, I gave up even thinking much about that since I am not in a position to influence laws anyway, I decided it is just something beyond my sphere of influence. I suppose gun laws are, too, but I hate confusion, and would like to know what you all think about this? And the USCCB has said something, but that didn't get much discussion in the other thread on guns.

Lombardi editorial: Against arms

Because it is short, here is the complete translation of his editorial:
Quote:
The initiatives announced by the United States government in view of limiting and controlling the diffusion and use of arms are certainly a step in the right direction. It is estimated that Americans today possess about 300 million firearms. No one can be under the illusion that limiting their number and use would be enough to impede horrendous massacres in the future, such as the one in Newtown, which shook the conscience of Americans and of the world, of children and adults alike. But it would be much worse if we were to satisfy ourselves with only words. And if the massacres are carried out by people with mental illness or distorted by hate, there is no doubt that they are carried out with arms. Forty-seven religious leaders of various confessions and religions have issued a call to American politicians to limit firearms, which “are making society pay an unacceptable price in terms of massacres and senseless deaths”. I’m with them.

But while American society is engaged in this debate of dutiful civil and moral growth, we cannot but widen our gaze to recall that arms, throughout the world, are also instruments for legitimate defense, but surely they are everywhere the main instruments used to bring threats, violence and death. Therefore, it is necessary to repeat tirelessly our calls for disarmament, to oppose the production, trade, and smuggling of arms of all types, fuelled by dishonourable interests for power or financial gain. If results are achieved, such as international conventions, the ban of landmines and other deadly arms, the reduction of the immense and disproportionate number of nuclear warheads…all the better! But weapons are and will always be too many. As the Pope said while travelling to Lebanon, we are all distraught by the massacres in Syria, but the weapons continue to arrive. Peace is born from the heart, but it will be easier to achieve if we have fewer weapons in hand.


This sounds like an individual opinion to me. St. Thomas had an opinion also. He openly advocated tyrannacide. That doesn't mean that opinions should be accepted universally, even from a Saint.

_________________
Pax et Bonum


Schultzz


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 08:41 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8540
Location: Northern VA, USA
And of course, since it's "just his opinion", it can be filed away with the USCCB's "opinion" on guns, the war in Iraq, immigration, and the death penalty. As well as the Holy Father's "opinion" on those matters. Which is to say, we can ignore them, right? Because they're matters of prudential judgment, we can just blithely set them aside and not even listen to them.

At least, that's the impression I get.

My actual opinion, sans sarcasm, follows.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 09:11 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8540
Location: Northern VA, USA
Monsignor Pope, in one of his recent blog posts, talked about how we, as Christians, should be moving toward becoming peacemakers above violence. He was discussing violent video games. But the principle applies here, too. While we have a RIGHT to defend ourselves from aggression, crime, and persecution, we see from the example of the martyrs that what we should aspire to is martyrdom, detachment from lower goods, and seeking the Kingdom and to make peace.

The USCCB is a group of the successors of the Apostles. Canon 753 states:

Quote:
Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.


As Father Sotelo said it better than I could:

fr_sotelo wrote:
However, insofar as your local bishop, who is Christ for you spiritually, and is the authority of Christ over you, has joined himself to the conference of bishops, you can't just "blow off" or ignore whatever the conference says.

Your local bishop, by deliberating at the conference and co-publishing its teaching documents as an extension of his teaching voice, has given the conference teaching authority by virtue of his presence there and his vote. It is a more "watered down" authority, than if the words come from the "horse's mouth" (your bishop), but it is real authority nonetheless.


So I find myself having to consider carefully and prayerfully what our Bishop's Conferences say, because my local bishop has participated in the proclomation. The Bishop's Conference has no authority of its own; it draws its authority from the member bishops, including my own.

Now, that said, we come to the question of Father Lombardi's comments. Unfortunately this is one of those areas where a Vatican "insider"'s comment would be helpful to understand the unofficial role of these editorials. I skimmed a few of his other editorials (and we know how effective my skimming is, eh, Grace? ;) ) and none of them seem to be on controversial issues. So it seems unlikely that the Holy Father regularly uses his secretary's editorials as ways to disseminate his personal opinion on matters without putting the full weight of his office behind it. I believe that is the role of the "unsigned" editorials in L'Osservatore Romano, no?

That said, Benedict's head of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has said:

Quote:
On the world stage, the Vatican has been pushing for decades for limitations not just on conventional weapons of warfare, such as tanks and missiles, but also for stricter limitations on the illegal and legal sale, trade and use of small firearms and weapons, said Tommaso Di Ruzza, the expert on disarmament and arms control at the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.

Di Ruzza told Catholic News Service that the Vatican is one of just a handful of states that would like to see small arms and weapons included in the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty, which would better regulate the flow of conventional arms.

He said while many countries are open to limits on larger weapons systems, most nations aren't interested in regulating small arms even though they "cause more deaths than all other arms (conventional and non-conventional) together."

The Vatican's justice and peace council is working to update its 1994 document, "The International Arms Trade," to further emphasize the importance of enacting concrete controls on handguns and light weapons, he said.

The current document calls on every nation and state "to impose a strict control on the sale of handguns and small arms. Limiting the purchase of such arms would certainly not infringe on the rights of anyone."

The more weapons there are in circulation, the more likely terrorists and criminals will get their hands on them, the document said.

The Catholic Church recognizes that "states will need to be armed for reason of legitimate defense," as Pope Benedict XVI said in a message to a Vatican-sponsored disarmament conference in April 2008.

However, armed defense is something appropriate for nations, not for all individual citizens in a state where rule of law is effective, said Di Ruzza.


My suspicion, and it's nothing more, is that the Vatican is subtly and slowly turning up the call for gun control on guns in civilians' hands, but is not in a position (yet?) to officially say that firearms should be removed from the hands of civilians in nations where the rule of law is effective.

I don't know what you should think about this, but I'm continuing to prayerfully consider the role of firearms in my life in light of what those who care for my soul are saying. Their "opinion" should not be set aside lightly, but it is also not authoritative either.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 11:28 
Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2009 15:57
Posts: 2776
Jeff, are you saying that if we are attacked, our wife and children endangered, our home invaded we should simply say "do what you will, I'm Catholic"? I'm sure I must have misread or misinterpreted your post. Even the Pope has armed guards and they don't limit their magazine capacity either.

_________________
BobA

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 11:48 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2008 23:35
Posts: 5278
Location: Europe
SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
This sounds like an individual opinion to me. St. Thomas had an opinion also. He openly advocated tyrannacide. That doesn't mean that opinions should be accepted universally, even from a Saint.
Good point. He does say, "I'm with them," not "We're with them."

Kardinal wrote:
Monsignor Pope, in one of his recent blog posts, talked about how we, as Christians, should be moving toward becoming peacemakers above violence. He was discussing violent video games. But the principle applies here, too. While we have a RIGHT to defend ourselves from aggression, crime, and persecution, we see from the example of the martyrs that what we should aspire to is martyrdom, detachment from lower goods, and seeking the Kingdom and to make peace.
Isn't it martyrdom only when people are killed because of the Faith? If some drug addict comes in and wants to kill our family in the process of stealing money/valuables, is it martyrdom to ourselves be killed?
Quote:
The USCCB is a group of the successors of the Apostles. Canon 753 states:

[cut]

So I find myself having to consider carefully and prayerfully what our Bishop's Conferences say, because my local bishop has participated in the proclomation. The Bishop's Conference has no authority of its own; it draws its authority from the member bishops, including my own.
Yes, I follow that.

Quote:
Now, that said, we come to the question of Father Lombardi's comments. Unfortunately this is one of those areas where a Vatican "insider"'s comment would be helpful to understand the unofficial role of these editorials. I skimmed a few of his other editorials (and we know how effective my skimming is, eh, Grace? ;) ) and none of them seem to be on controversial issues. So it seems unlikely that the Holy Father regularly uses his secretary's editorials as ways to disseminate his personal opinion on matters without putting the full weight of his office behind it. I believe that is the role of the "unsigned" editorials in L'Osservatore Romano, no?
I am pretty sure that I remember Fabrizio saying that is not the role of the unsigned editorials in L'Osservatore Romano.
But this wasn't the Osservatore; it was the Vatican news service and Fr. Lombardi was appointed by Pope Benedict.

Quote:
That said, Benedict's head of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace has said:

Quote:
On the world stage, the Vatican has been pushing for decades for limitations not just on conventional weapons of warfare, such as tanks and missiles, but also for stricter limitations on the illegal and legal sale, trade and use of small firearms and weapons, said Tommaso Di Ruzza, the expert on disarmament and arms control at the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.

Di Ruzza told Catholic News Service that the Vatican is one of just a handful of states that would like to see small arms and weapons included in the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty, which would better regulate the flow of conventional arms.

He said while many countries are open to limits on larger weapons systems, most nations aren't interested in regulating small arms even though they "cause more deaths than all other arms (conventional and non-conventional) together."

The Vatican's justice and peace council is working to update its 1994 document, "The International Arms Trade," to further emphasize the importance of enacting concrete controls on handguns and light weapons, he said.

The current document calls on every nation and state "to impose a strict control on the sale of handguns and small arms. Limiting the purchase of such arms would certainly not infringe on the rights of anyone."

The more weapons there are in circulation, the more likely terrorists and criminals will get their hands on them, the document said.

The Catholic Church recognizes that "states will need to be armed for reason of legitimate defense," as Pope Benedict XVI said in a message to a Vatican-sponsored disarmament conference in April 2008.

However, armed defense is something appropriate for nations, not for all individual citizens in a state where rule of law is effective, said Di Ruzza.

Uh-oh.
Quote:
My suspicion, and it's nothing more, is that the Vatican is subtly and slowly turning up the call for gun control on guns in civilians' hands, but is not in a position (yet?) to officially say that firearms should be removed from the hands of civilians in nations where the rule of law is effective.

I don't know what you should think about this, but I'm continuing to prayerfully consider the role of firearms in my life in light of what those who care for my soul are saying. Their "opinion" should not be set aside lightly, but it is also not authoritative either.

Hhmmm... yes, I understand. I've just seen this Bishop Blaire Expresses Hope That President’s Action On Guns Promotes A Culture Of Life on the USCCB site:
.
Quote:
..five priorities made by the bishops in their 2000 statement, Responsibility, Rehabilitation and Restoration: A Catholic Perspective on Crime and Criminal Justice. These were: 1. Support measures that control the sale and use of firearms, 2. Support measures that make guns safer, 3. Call for sensible regulations of handguns, 4. Support legislative efforts that seek to protect society from violence associated with easy access to deadly weapons including assault rifles, and 5. Make a serious commitment to confront the pervasive role of addiction and mental illness in crime.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 13:34 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2003 13:32
Posts: 4930
Arwen wrote:
What do you think about this by the director of the Press Office of the Holy See?


I think he has expressed his opinion premised upon his well formed conscience.

Individual self defense is a personal matter in that the decision to employ lethal force is subjectively determined.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 14:06 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2003 13:32
Posts: 4930
Kardinal wrote:
And of course, since it's "just his opinion", it can be filed away with the USCCB's "opinion" on guns, the war in Iraq, immigration, and the death penalty. As well as the Holy Father's "opinion" on those matters. Which is to say, we can ignore them, right? Because they're matters of prudential judgment, we can just blithely set them aside and not even listen to them.


There are some decisions that will always be matters of prudential judgment. This frustrates many.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 15:29 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14648
Location: Sydney, Australia
Grace,

Quote:
Do we assume that the Pope agrees with him?


Think about it. If I appoint a media spokesman, is it because I want to sit back and see what he comes out with? Or is it because I expect him to familiarise himself with my views and put them forth in the media?

While I'm not suggesting Fr Lombardi runs each and every editorial past the Holy Father, I think it unlikely in the extreme that he would publish something he knows Pope Benedict XVI would not approve of.

Personally, I think Fr Lombardi has been doing a reasonably good job of it.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 16:33 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8540
Location: Northern VA, USA
Arwen wrote:
Quote:
Now, that said, we come to the question of Father Lombardi's comments. Unfortunately this is one of those areas where a Vatican "insider"'s comment would be helpful to understand the unofficial role of these editorials. I skimmed a few of his other editorials (and we know how effective my skimming is, eh, Grace? ;) ) and none of them seem to be on controversial issues. So it seems unlikely that the Holy Father regularly uses his secretary's editorials as ways to disseminate his personal opinion on matters without putting the full weight of his office behind it. I believe that is the role of the "unsigned" editorials in L'Osservatore Romano, no?
I am pretty sure that I remember Fabrizio saying that is not the role of the unsigned editorials in L'Osservatore Romano.

I don't remember, which is why I asked. I should go dig that up...

My first impression was accurate:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=55839&p=727046&hilit=unsigned#p727046

pilgrim wrote:
When something published on the OR is a teaching of the Church or an editorial aimed at expressing the position of the Church on a given issue, it is presented as such and is often unsigned, which generally indicates that it comes directly form the table of the Secretary of State or a Cardinal Prefect of some Congregation speaking on behalf of the Pope and/or expressing the official position of the Church on a given issue, not necessarily limited to problems or facts concerning faith and morals, and not always rewuiring yet another pronouncement of the Successor of Peter.


Arwen wrote:
But this wasn't the Osservatore; it was the Vatican news service and Fr. Lombardi was appointed by Pope Benedict.

I know. That was exactly what I was trying to say. If the Holy Father was really interested in expressing something unofficially like this, it seems to me that he would have instructed that an LOR editorial be published unsigned, rather than an editorial by his press secretary. But again, without knowing how the Vatican works, it is very hard to say. Before Fabrizio said the above, I would have had no idea of the distinction between signed and unsigned editorials in LOR. I suspect that somewhere between "Father Lombardi's statements is the official Vatican position" or "Father Lombardi's statement reflects he Holy Father's thoughts" and "it as merely the opinion of a priest who happens to work at the Vatican", the truth lies.

My best guess is that it is simply something that the Holy Father does not disagree with but is Father Lombardi's initiative.

Arwen wrote:
Hhmmm... yes, I understand. I've just seen this Bishop Blaire Expresses Hope That President’s Action On Guns Promotes A Culture Of Life on the USCCB site:

"Culture of Life". Another element of this. Holy Father John Paul implied in [i]Evangelium Vitae] that the death penalty, which is similar morally to justified killing in self-defense (principle of double effect), might contribute to a culture of death in the context of places where abortion and euthanasia are so rampant. My experience talking to some in the firearm community is that they are eager to exercise their right to self defense on "anyone who comes in my house" or in defense of property. Their concern for material things and their home's sovereignty appears to take precedence over the life of others, even criminals. I wonder if that's what John Paul was thinking of when he talked about the contribution of the death penalty to the culture of death.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 16:36 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8540
Location: Northern VA, USA
dlm wrote:
Kardinal wrote:
And of course, since it's "just his opinion", it can be filed away with the USCCB's "opinion" on guns, the war in Iraq, immigration, and the death penalty. As well as the Holy Father's "opinion" on those matters. Which is to say, we can ignore them, right? Because they're matters of prudential judgment, we can just blithely set them aside and not even listen to them.


There are some decisions that will always be matters of prudential judgment. This frustrates many.

I'm simply saying that "prudential judgment" is not code for "ignore it if you feel like it." It means we need to consider their words very carefully and prayerfully and if, based on our competence, we disagree, we are not disobedient.

The other element, which I'm not 100% sure about, is that some matters of "prudential judgment" are so because they are outside the purview of the Church to approve or condemn. I think the decision to go to war or not is one of them. It is a temporal matter, and temporal leaders will answer to God for their decisions. But others may know better than I on that matter.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 17:30 
Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2009 15:57
Posts: 2776
I pray that some on this forum never have the misfortune of a home invasion or physical assault on themselves or their families because they won't stand a chance; by the time they rationalize and process the facts, weigh their conscience, pray and possibly dial 911 it will all be over. I suppose there might be some spiritual benefit in forgiving the assailant but I somehow think it might not outweigh the grief that will be experienced.

When the Pope and all the other influential, important, politically connected and celebrity status individuals surrender their firearms and those of their body guards I might begin to take them seriously, until then it's their opinion versus mine.

_________________
BobA

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 17:54 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2004 07:39
Posts: 8540
Location: Northern VA, USA
bali wrote:
I pray that some on this forum never have the misfortune of a home invasion or physical assault on themselves or their families because they won't stand a chance; by the time they rationalize and process the facts, weigh their conscience, pray and possibly dial 911 it will all be over. I suppose there might be some spiritual benefit in forgiving the assailant but I somehow think it might not outweigh the grief that will be experienced.

Bob, the objective is to figure all this stuff out BEFORE the situation happens.

I know what my current policy is. But as with all things in the Christian life, it is subject to improvement.

_________________
ImageJeff StevensImage


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 18:44 
Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2009 15:57
Posts: 2776
Kardinal wrote:
bali wrote:
I pray that some on this forum never have the misfortune of a home invasion or physical assault on themselves or their families because they won't stand a chance; by the time they rationalize and process the facts, weigh their conscience, pray and possibly dial 911 it will all be over. I suppose there might be some spiritual benefit in forgiving the assailant but I somehow think it might not outweigh the grief that will be experienced.

Bob, the objective is to figure all this stuff out BEFORE the situation happens.

I know what my current policy is. But as with all things in the Christian life, it is subject to improvement.


I know what my response would be; just as I was trained and my situational awareness has also been honed by the same trainer.

I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone including the clergy at any level thinks I would ever want to leave my family and by extension my home without a line of defense, I'm Catholic not crazy. One priest I know is in the process of obtaining a concealed carry permit so evidently his opinion differs from the Vatican as well.

Like I said, those who think being unarmed is so wonderful will have to lay down their arms before I believe them, there is no chance of convincing me in any other fashion. This nonsense won't curb violence it will turn us into the proverbial fish in a barrel for the criminals. Remember them? They don't care about laws or the people. The criminals and crazies are the ones we need to address, not the law-abiding citizens who need the means to defend themselves. The best defense against an armed assailant is an equal or stronger capability and the police by their own admission cannot provide that response in time.

Only when everyone realizes this is a gun grab and has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the safety of the population will we be able to draft a functional policy, until then the 2nd amendment as drafted by some very wise men who understood the concept that power corrupts will have to suffice.

_________________
BobA

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 18:53 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jul 2003 21:49
Posts: 7736
Location: Los Angeles, California
Jeff,

You've often stated your very praiseworthy intent to prayerfully consider what our bishops say in a variety of contexts and I always admire your steadfast determination to be obedient to mother church and to clearly understand her teachings but I will be very candid here and say that it literally makes me nervous and almost sick to my stomach when I read pronouncements from the bishops on some of these issues.

I sometimes wonder in those instances if I can even call myself a Catholic because I think the idea of simply reducing the number of weapons (speaking of military..warheads, etc) is going to matter when it comes to peace is just naive but the church has survived over 2000 years and is not naive. I'm not going to debate anything about the death penalty but John Paul II new teaching in the most recent catechism disturbed me greatly along with other issues and I worry about my ability to be obedient in the complete way that you strive for. Sure, I can go to confession with a mortal sin on my soul and not receive communion when I do so but can I say to myself that a murderer should not face the death penalty or that I should only have the right to one gun (as a potential example) rather than two because that's what the church teaches? I don't think I can.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 19:04 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jul 2003 21:49
Posts: 7736
Location: Los Angeles, California
Quote:
is going to matter when it comes to peace is just naive but the church has survived


I meant, "is notgoing to matter..

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 21:01 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11412
Location: State of Michigan, USA
What is "prudential judgment" if it means I must agree with an individual opinion of a bishop or Pope (NOTE: I do not include priests in this) or face accusation that I am blithely filing it away because my judgment of my circumstances is not as good as theirs? And must we, everytime a bishop or Pope expresses such an opinion (the same opinion), reconsider our own judgment, which we have made based on our individual life's circumstances and our own reason in accord with a well-formed conscience? Perhaps if my circumstances change, but not because someone else has added his voice to a chorus of those holding a different opinion.

Fr. Lombardi is free to lay open his arms at an intruder and accept a death blow. But I have a family to protect. He, presumably is celibate and childless. So is the Pope (protected by armed Swiss Guard). If either of them are killed, the Church will raise up another man to function in their stead. Their office will continue. If I am killed, or if my wife is killed, a family is severely debilitated; little people who depend almost entirely on me and my wife for their physical and spiritual upbringing will be harmed. Yet the Church will not raise up a replacement for us. We are irreplaceable to our children and to each other.

I intend to defend myself and my family. I'm therefore inching ever closer to purchasing and training with a small firearm, and getting a conceal/carry permit, and so is my wife, since she would hardly be able to protect our children against an unarmed man, let alone a gun-ban defying criminal with a gun (or a knife, for that matter). Opinions such as Fr. Lombardi's anger me, because they seem to be based on a misunderstanding of what it takes to defend oneself in a reasonable way now that the spectre of firearms has been let out of the bag decades ago, and they seem callous toward the concern about how such firearms will be wrested from the hands of criminals, whom we all know will not turn them in. Calling for heavy restrictions on the legal sale of firearms (up to and including a ban on them) IS an unreasonable limit to my ability to defend my family, in my opinion.

Martyrdom entails forfeiting my life to those who would take it because they hate Christians. I would even be a martyr if I lost my life fighting justly those who attack me because they hate Christians. Martyrdom does not mean laying down my life to anyone "just because." And peacemaking does not mean ceding to someone the power to commit terrible injustice against me or the people for whom I am responsible. How many people's lives hang in the balance on Fr. Lombardi's life, I wonder?

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2013 21:13 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2002 16:21
Posts: 15599
Location: Los Angeles, CA
:hold: (Post reconsidered)

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 07:53 
Offline
Proficient Member
Proficient Member

Joined: 18 Nov 2004 05:39
Posts: 713
Location: Lovettsville, VA
NOTE: Moved from "The Lion's Den" when I realized that a thread on this topic already existed.
~~~~~~~



http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/Vatic ... dgetphase1

Sorry to see this but I guess it shouldn't be surprising. Vatican officials obviously don't know any more about guns or the American constitution than Obama does. It's fine to be against gun violence. Who, other than the criminals and lunatics who engage in it, isn't? But that doesn't get us very far does it?

I doubt that there will ever be a serious discussion of the relationship of guns to American culture simply because the "progressives" don't want one. They're always looking for "root causes" whenever some social problem is brought up but, with guns, they don't bother. The problem is the gun, an inanimate object. No concern about root causes there and no interest in the fact that the old saw is true: guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Progressives want strict gun control (preferably confiscation and banning if they could get away with it) because the traditional American view toward guns and the right of self-defense means that Americans have more personal autonomy, and therefore more ability to resist tyranny, than any progressive government can really accept. It is essentially the same reason that progressives hate the Church. Anything that allows for or encourages people to look somewhere other than the government for meeting their needs is, in progressive eyes, bad.

There's another old saw that is true: gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Seminole Jim

_________________
"It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged."
- - G.K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 11:36 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 05:16
Posts: 15718
Location: Southern California, Catholic
Will they take those halberds away from the Swiss Guard? What is the morality of waving lethal weapons around just so the tourists can take pictures? :P

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 16:44 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14648
Location: Sydney, Australia
Val,

I think it's important that we not misunderstand what Fr Lombardi is saying. Fr Lombardi is not advocating pacifism. No Catholic would.

Quote:
...I should only have the right to one gun (as a potential example) rather than two because that's what the church teaches?


But that isn't what the Church teaches.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 16:46 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14648
Location: Sydney, Australia
Seminole Jim,

From the other thread

Quote:
Vatican supports Obama on gun control


I'm not sure that heading is entirely accurate.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 16:53 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14648
Location: Sydney, Australia
Joe,

Halberds? (It's actually a partisan, but I'm being pedantic.)

Now, this is more like it

Image

a stylishly elegant carbine. More

Quote:
SIG P220 (P75)
Glock 19
Heckler & Koch MP5A3
Heckler & Koch MP7
SIG SG 550
SIG SG 552


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_guard#Equipment

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 16:56 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11412
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Val,

I think it's important that we not misunderstand what Fr Lombardi is saying. Fr Lombardi is not advocating pacifism. No Catholic would. emphasis added by Dean

Quote:
...I should only have the right to one gun (as a potential example) rather than two because that's what the church teaches?


But that isn't what the Church teaches.


James, I personally know very well a priest who advocates pacifism in any and all cases. And he would love it if that were our only option. There are indeed Catholics who advocate pacifism for themselves and everyone else.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 17:01 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11412
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Isn't it acceptance of a defacto pacifism if you are not able to meet a threat with an adequate defense, and you know this to be the case? How does one stop a bad man with a gun, if not with another gun?

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 17:04 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14648
Location: Sydney, Australia
Dean,

And I've met "Catholic" politicians who are pro-abortion.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 17:09 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2003 13:32
Posts: 4930
Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Seminole Jim,

From the other thread

Quote:
Vatican supports Obama on gun control


I'm not sure that heading is entirely accurate.


The heading is accurate and as well it is clearly a lie. I have read several articles with similar headings that are published by and trumpeted by at best ignorant useful idiots and at worst happy go lucky leftists.

There is a war going on right now that escalates -the war is between good and evil. The supposed middle ground disappears quickly.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 17:13 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11412
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
Dean,

And I've met "Catholic" politicians who are pro-abortion.


Ah, I see. That's one discussion I'm not willing to have -- who is Catholic and who isn't depending on the degree of adherance to Catholic doctrine. On the other hand, pacifism is a legitimate Catholic position to choose for oneself. But it isn't one that may be chosen and enforced on others.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 19:41 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2002 16:21
Posts: 15599
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Dean wrote:
James, I personally know very well a priest who advocates pacifism in any and all cases. And he would love it if that were our only option. There are indeed Catholics who advocate pacifism for themselves and everyone else.

Seamas O Dalaigh wrote:
And I've met "Catholic" politicians who are pro-abortion.


So, this is another case of "no true Scotsman"?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 19:47 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14648
Location: Sydney, Australia
David,

Quote:
So, this is another case of "no true Scotsman"?


I think it has more to do with Canon 915 than with Antony Flew.

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2013 20:03 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 10 Dec 2003 01:07
Posts: 14648
Location: Sydney, Australia
Someone's not happy.

Quote:
Let’s make something clear right away. Pope Benedict has not endorsed the Obama administration’s gun-control plans. The Pope has said nothing on the subject. But Father Federico Lombardi, the director of the Vatican press office—has released a statement on gun control, in his weekly editorial commentary for Vatican Radio.


Quote:
”The initiatives announced by the United States government in view of limiting and controlling the diffusion and use of arms are certainly a step in the right direction,” Father Lombardi pronounced as he began his commentary. Obviously he was referring to the executive orders issued by President Obama (who, by the way, is not “the United States government”) last week. The wording of the editorial is vague; we don’t know which initiatives in particular met with Father Lombardi’s approval.


http://www.catholicculture.org/commenta ... cfm?id=958

Quote:
Father Lombardi appears badly informed about the American debate on gun control, and his argument is badly framed. He goes well beyond what the Church teaches on the use of arms and the limits of legitimate self-defense, and offers instead his own ill-formed opinion. This is an unfortunate misuse of his position as spokesman for the Vatican.



As usual, I don't quite agree with Phil Lawler. As usual, he's gone just a little too far. But his last paragraph should be noted:

Quote:
If he were attuned to the realities of the American political scene, Father Lombardi would have remembered that this week brings the 40th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision. This week tens of thousands of pro-life Americans will descend on Washington for the annual March for Life. This week of all weeks, the pro-life movement wants the attention of Washington focused on abortion. Instead the Vatican spokesman helps the White House to keep the gun-control issue in the headlines. This week of all weeks, pro-lifers want President Obama called to account for the policies he has espoused to protect the abortion industry. Instead Father Lombardi praises Obama’s work on an unrelated matter. The timing of the Vatican Radio editorial, as well as its content, shows that Father Lombardi has a tin ear when it comes to American political affairs.



_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2013 12:45 
Offline
Master Member
Master Member
User avatar

Joined: 28 Jul 2003 21:49
Posts: 7736
Location: Los Angeles, California
Dean,

Quote:
On the other hand, pacifism is a legitimate Catholic position to choose for oneself.


I didn't know that. ..is it in the catechism? I don't understand how it can be a legitimate Catholic position to allow yourself to be killed rather than fight when the church recognizes that self defense is legitimate. Aren't we called to protect life, including our own, against those who want to destroy the innocent?

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Jan 2013 14:19 
Offline
Forum Staff
Forum Staff
User avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2002 12:15
Posts: 11412
Location: State of Michigan, USA
Val,

Quote:
2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.


And...

Quote:
2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group