Catholic Online Forum

??

_________________
Kris H.

"He is Your best servant who desires not so much to hear from You what may be comfortable to his own will, but rather to conform his will to whatever he shall hear from You."--St. Augustine of Hippo

JMJ

Well, the Founding Fathers did make such case. They thought that the Constitution was conceived by and for people who relied on the tenets of a Biblical faith as the secure foundation of everybody's freedom, non-believers included. That was always also the position of the Church which never ceased to urge Christians to work to bring the temporal order into conformity with the principles of Christian life. While Charles Carroll certainly contributed to put some Aquinas and Bellarmine in the founder's perspective, the common biblical roots are evident in all their stated principles.

_________________
FabrizioParty like it's 1773

No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist (Pius XI)

_________________
"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Probably similar people to those who said,

Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever persuasion, religious or political.

Where there is no law, there is no liberty; and nothing deserves the name of law but that which is certain and universal in its operation upon all the members of the community.

Without liberty, law loses its nature and its name, and becomes oppression. Without law, liberty also loses its nature and its name, and becomes licentiousness.

In Europe, charters of liberty have been granted by power. America has set the example...of charters of power granted by liberty. This revolution in the practice of the world, may, with an honest praise, be pronounced the most triumphant epoch of its history, and the most consoling presage of its happiness.

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It niether picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

It is now no more than toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt in the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appelation derived from local discriminations.

Is it not the glory of the people of America, that, whilst they have paid a decent regard to the opinions of former times and other nations, they have not suffered a blind veneration for antiquity, for custom, or for names, to overrule the suggestions of their own good sense, the knowledge of their own situation, and the lessons of their own experience?

In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate--look to his character.

And, perhaps most fittingly, this one sums up my point of view:

Your love of liberty--your respect for the laws--your habits of industry--and your practice of the moral and religious obligations, are the strongest claims to national and individual happiness.

_________________
Kris H.

"He is Your best servant who desires not so much to hear from You what may be comfortable to his own will, but rather to conform his will to whatever he shall hear from You."--St. Augustine of Hippo

The problem with the United States is that when it has conceived itself as a a Christian nation it has done so with the view that the US has a "manifest destiny" which removes it from being bound by any law that could restrain its expansionist impulse.

From the Catholic point of view, it is the Church and not the state that is the only true Christian society. The US is not the "new Israel", the "city of the hill", the "thousands points of life". Very dangerous rhetoric.

I think the Founders were wise to ensure the neutrality of the state with regard to religion, going so far as to even codify that there shall be no religious test whatsoever of any candidate for high office.

_________________
George

Someday after we have mastered the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of Love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, we will have discovered fire. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Barb,

George Washington, John Adams, John Jay and George Washigton?

Lots more here:

http://www.patriotsherald.com/content/churchstate.php

_________________
James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

Well done!

And thanks for that link!

God bless,
Barb

_________________
"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Barb,

I'm not sure how much more can come of our discussion. I have tried to demonstrate that there are multiple ways in which one can legitimately attempt to define the national identity of America. I have tried to express that, while Christianity and Judeo-Christian ethics were, and are, key influences, it is oversimplification to say our national identity is defined by Christianity. Rather, I have tried to demonstrate that multiple influences--Christianity, Enlightenment thinking on the nature of man, and the ideals expressed in the documents of the American Founding, among others--create a national identity that isn't "mere Christianity," nor "mere political theory," but something that arises from both and other sources.

There is a logical fallacy called assuming the part for the whole. I believe attempting to reduce the American national identity to Christianity alone, or to political issues alone, are both examples of this fallacy.

If I were tasked to define the American identity in one word, it would be Liberty. Within that one word, we see Christian influence and the clear historical evidence that it was a drive for religious freedom that led many to emigrate. Within that one word, we see how securing man's unalienable natural rights, endowed by our Creator, led us to declare independence. And, within that one word, we see both the good (enshrinement of human rights as guaranteed under law) and the bad (radical individualism and self-interest to the detriment of the common weal) that can arise in American society.

And that will be my last word on the topic. I've enjoyed the back and forth on this.

_________________
Kris H.

"He is Your best servant who desires not so much to hear from You what may be comfortable to his own will, but rather to conform his will to whatever he shall hear from You."--St. Augustine of Hippo

Hi Kris,

To your question mark....

God gave us free will.

Do you believe that because He gave us free will, He was indifferent to how we used it?

If I were to follow the logic you have presented here, I would have to say that if He intended for us to be Christians, He would not have given us the freedom to reject Him.

The founders of our Nation gave us the kind of government that would allow us to freely choose what to believe. That didn't mean they were indifferent to the choice we would make. Indeed, they were predominantly - nay overwhelmingly - Christians who were giving us the freedom to choose how we worship our Lord, Jesus Christ.

The presumption was that we would choose which form of Christianity we would practice. The belief was that the form of government we were putting into place depended on a society made up first and foremost of Christians.

They were no more indifferent to the religious beliefs upon which the nation was being founded than God is indifferent to the religious beliefs upon which His kingdom was being founded.

Free will... free government... all so that men could freely choose what is right, what is true.

The founders of our country did not put into place a government that would allow men to be whatever they wanted to be. Any more than God gave us free will so that we could freely choose to be whatever decadent and deprived being we wished to be. True freedom is not license.

The founders of our country put into place a government that would allow Christian men to freely choose to be that which our Creator made us to be.

They never intended that freedom, that form of government, to be used by evil men to drive Christian men out of the public square.

To say that the defining characteristic of America is "Liberty" is like saying the defining characteristic of Christianity is "Freedom." America was founded to give Christian men the form of government that would allow them to freely worship God as they believed He should be worshipped. Liberty was a means, not an end.

Just as free will is a means. It is not the end.

God bless,
Barb

_________________
"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

Barb,

Sorry, one last comment:



I would take the word "Christian" out of the sentence above to make it accurately depict what the Founders did. It did not restrict its aims only to Christians, but for all in the United States. And the right to worship was only one of many secured by the government formed in America. Again, it's oversimplification to try to place religion alone, let alone Christianity alone, at the center of the motivations of the American founding.

Liberty was indeed an end. It was one of the unalienable rights governments are instituted to secure, according to the Declaration. According to both Hobbes and Locke, Liberty is one of the rights of man in the state of nature. It is thus an end of government and social compact, but a means by which man can, with the help of God's Grace, become what he is meant to be.

The preamble to the Constitution sums this up:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Securing the blessings of liberty was, thus, one of the ends of the Constitution. That liberty had a religious component, as did the American founding, but it was only one component. I am truly sorry that you cannot see this fact, but as Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

_________________
Kris H.

"He is Your best servant who desires not so much to hear from You what may be comfortable to his own will, but rather to conform his will to whatever he shall hear from You."--St. Augustine of Hippo

Ah, but Kris...

How much of your opinion is based on fact, and how much is based on historiography?

Let's do this... you and I...

Let us step back from our discussion and agree to take a week "off" from it, so to speak, in order to allow Him to work within us. Let us agree to arise every morning and ask Him to open our hearts and our eyes and our understanding to His Truth as it pertains to this subject. I will pray that if I am wrong in this discussion, He will help me to understand my error and guide me in the correction of it. I will pray that if I am failing you, He will grant me the grace to understand how and in what ways. And grant me the grace as well to acknowledge it and seek to learn from you what is right.

Let us agree also to include this prayer in our evening prayers: that when we kneel beside our beds every evening for the next seven days, we will pray that He help us grow in understanding - each of the other. That He guide our thoughts and guide our hearts.

And let us agree to keep these things in our hearts - pondering them silently and quietly - during the days throughout this next week.

And then, in a week, let us return and share our thoughts.

Thank you for the exchange, Kris. I too have enjoyed it!

God bless you and keep you -
Barb

_________________
"Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes, not divine, but demonic." Pope Benedict XVI

How true.

I wonder how many that were fooled, even here on COL, by the silver tongued morally irrelevant community organizer have seen the light?

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

And vice versa.

_________________
-Lou (Louis)

Deus meus et omnia
Totus Tuus
Cacciatore/Fungaiolo

It appears to me that President Obama is doing his best to make that statement true, and the election results indicate that he is succeeding.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I bet within the first year of his second term it will be obvious to all but those living under rocks or in chronic denial.

_________________
BobA

Bob,

Are you simply prognosticating or is there more to your message?

The indicator for me of a problem is that conservatives do not have a concise message. There is the preaching of morality but than the potential leaders of the message have a closet full of skeletons. That kind of takes away any credibility. Of course, you also know that once you start talking about morality and God...you have killed the conversation. At best, it's a time for each party to start pointing fingers. Who's fault is this? I believe it's ours.

We have to do a better job of selecting and than standing behind those that have a message we support. It is not good enough to take the defensive; "well, don't judge…". Even within our symbolism - an example: These days you cannot have a Christmas Tree or much less a Nativity set in a public place. However, I have been in communities were they are on display. I made certain to express my approval. If we do not take a stand for the small things how do we expect to be effective when a big one comes along?

I am from the belief that it starts in the home. We see too many cases of Catholic families were the next generation dose not follow the faith as it should be practiced. We are creating tomorrows leaders.

I think there was a time when spirited man founded this nation and they were not afraid to display their faith. However, we have allowed those people to be pushed aside.

_________________
Leo

Secure the blessings. Blessings? Where from are these blessings -what or who are the other components you allude to that provide these blessings?

Facts?

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51