Catholic Online Forum

There is a fairly lively ongoing discussion about the morality of voting for somebody other than Obama or Romney.

The latest Pew survey tells us that 43 perent of the voting age population did not vote in 2008. Chances are that even fewer will vote this time.

What is the practical effect of not voting?

What is the morality of not not voting?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

There are two ways of not voting:

1. Don't cast a ballot which says I am not interested.

2. Cast a blank or defaced ballot which says None of the above.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

The Catechism says we are morally obligated to exercise the right to vote: CCC 2240.

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Rebecca

Joe's summary seems appropriate.



Which would indicate (1) from Joe's summary is not a legitimate option, whereas (2) might well be.

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Jeff Stevens

According to whose interpretation? Is somebody going to tally up the blank and defaced ballots (I assume that would include hanging chads) and come to the conclusion that they represent some kind of protest vote?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,



Is that because both of the main candidates are so... um, disappointing?



Is that not required by law?

Protest votes? Do you not have party-appointed scrutineers over there?

I remember an election some years ago when Senator Richardson was still active in politics. He was appearing on a tv election night coverage. One particular electorate had figures appearing on the board that indicated a very high percentage of informal votes. The journalists laughed a little and hinted at the general stupidity of the people in that (blue-collar) electorate. Senator Richardson put down the phone and corrcted them "My information, the information I'm getting from my scrutineers, is that most of those informal votes are intentional".

Short answer, yes, it does matter.

Here in Sydney we just had a by-election for the state seat of Sydney. Morally, I could not vote for any of the candidates (abortion, euthanasia, same-sex "marriage"). Now, I need to be careful here. In Australia there is nothing to say I may not vote informally. But there are precedents in the courts that suggest it is illegal to encourage others to vote informally and that it is illegal to expalin to them how to do it. I can safely say that no one, after reading what I wrote on the ballot paper, would be in any doubt about my opinions.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

Possibly. I hear that there is much less enthusiasm among young people.


I really don't know. I assume they must be accounted for in some way. But I have never seen them publicly announced, let alone announced with a motive ascribed.


I am not familiar with that term "scrutineers", so I cannot answer. It seems to me that in cases where the results are very close and recounts are done, (e.g., Florida in 2000) that there are representatives of both parties monitoring the counting process for accuracy.


You will have to explain "informal voting" to me. Does that mean voting for someone not on the ballot? Why would it be illegal to encourage that?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

In reverse order,



Because the Act says so, or at least the courts say the Act says so.



It means an invalid ballot. It is usually unintended. Remember that in a preferential system if there are three candidates, the boxes have to be numbered from one to three. Some people can't count beyond two (eg people who work as roadies with rock bands - "one, two, two...two, two.."). Sometimes it is obviously deliberate, eg in an electorate where the liberal-conservative, the socialist and the communist are all pro-abortion, writing "End abortion now" on the paper and not numberng any of the boxes will send a very clear message to all of the parties. (The party of the second candidate I've just mentioned will especially take note as they rely heavily on the Catholic vote.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

David,

PS,



I've just checked - they are. In the US it is known as the residual vote.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

David asked




I think the short answer to that, is that you get the politicians you deserve,

James,



I think that comment is unworthy of you. Yes in Australia we have compulsory voting and yes, we get those who will vote in any manner, to avoid being fined, we know that as the donkey vote, but at least it makes voters get of their "butt" and go to the election booth, I have had the vote in the U.K. where the situation is similar to that in the U.S. and I have voted in Oz, since 1973. I know that I prefer our system, and I also feel it is obligatory to vote in local council elections, yet that is not compulsory. Our ancestors fought and died for the right to vote and to not bother to do so is morally
wrong as David suggested.

Thems my thoughts, though it is just as well voting day here does not fall on the first Tuesday in November

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"Lord to whom shall I go? Thou hast the words of eternal life"

I have read (don't know how accurate it is) that the non-voters tend to favor the opposition party.

You often hear messages saying, "Voting is your right and responsibility. Exercise that right. Go to the polls." As a matter of fact, I have heard that from Catholic pulpits. But do we really want to encourage a high voter turnout if it will possibly work against us?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Isn't Romney, in fact anyone other than Obama, representing the opposition party? If so, the tendency would be to help our cause. I assume the party in power would not be the opposition.

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BobA

If I'm on one side, the other side is the opposition.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I think the following is the traditional understand of the term:

op•po•si•tion ( p -z sh n)
4. often Opposition A political party or an organized group opposed to the group, party, or government in power.

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BobA

Supposedly a little old lady once said, "I never vote. It only encourages them.."

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Bob,

Perhaps you are right. I always thought that was more of a British usage, e.g., "the loyal opposition".

Anyway, I was using it in a more generic sense. If there are two parties or two candidates, they are opposed to each other.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Peter,



Twenty bucks? You've got to be kidding.

In any case, I wasn't talking about the donkey vote - usually 0.5% - a donkey vote is a valid vote. I was talking about informal votes (ie invalid votes). In the 2010 election the informal vote was 5.55%, an unusually high level. In 2007 it was 3.95%. Most informal votes are invalid because of insufficient numbering (ie because some people are stupid, ie they can't count). Here are the top ten electorates with the highest percentage of (mostly unintended) informal votes in 2010:

Blaxland (14.06 per cent); Fowler (12.83 per cent); Watson (12.80 per cent); Chifley (11.16 per cent); McMahon (10.84 per cent); Werriwa (10.35 per cent); Greenway (10.27 per cent); Barton (9.82 per cent); Reid (8.80 per cent); and Parramatta (8.65 per cent). And what do those electorates have in common?

(I intended no offence to roadies, who I'm sure do a marvelous job; it was just a glib quip.)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

David & Bob A,

The US does not have an Opposition in the sense that oppositions are found in Westminster parliamentary democracies.

There is a President, a Senate majority, a Senate minority, a House majority, a House minority - no opposition.

This might be helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_democracy

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,



They ain't in W.A.

Thought Colin Barnett, who I do not really like, was good on the "Tony Jones" show last night.

Peter

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"Lord to whom shall I go? Thou hast the words of eternal life"

My vote was utterly useless today and I'm furious. Someone registered to vote under my address. The only mail I receive for her is political. I've called the registrar and reported it to the post office and she still got a sample ballot. I also got one and my dead mother got one (I have given up on trying to stop that one) but even though I brought it to the voting place, my name wasn't on the list but this fraudulent voter can vote and I could only do a provisional ballot...which takes up to four weeks to count. I shouldn't have voted under my dead mother's name...not like they care about my identity anyways.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

You voted under your dead mother's name?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I don't know who is in charge of elections in California, in Florida it is the secretary of state. If that was me I would be on the phone to my US Representative, both my US Senators, my State Representative and State Senators, and the county Sheriff. In short I'd make a big, big stink.

I mention the Sheriff because they usually investigate voter fraud.

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Bob C

There is an FBI hotline for reporting voter fraud or intimidation: 202-514-1888 | 1-800-253-3931

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

OTOH, if you voted as someone else, you may have put yourself in an awkward position when it comes to reporting fraud.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Call it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Bob C

Indeed. Or call 866-OUR-VOTE. Report it, Val. People need to know they can't get away with this stuff.

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Jeff Stevens

Isn't there a way to refuse to accept her mail at your address? I would think the USPS would have a card or form you could fill out rejecting mail to a particular name. You could also send the mail back with a note "No such resident".

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BobA

Val,



It may take four weeks, but a provisional ballot is still a vote. It isn't useless.

(Is the fraudulent voter a actual person who is known to you?)

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Many here will be pleased to hear that I voted for Paul Ryan and his running mate.

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Jeff Stevens

Cute

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Bob C

It occurs to me to ask (mostly because I simply don't remember) - are the states obligated to count every vote?

I always thought they should be, but I'm rusty on the details of civics, so I realized I'm not sure it's a fact. I also wonder how much the law varies from state to state.

I found myself thinking of much smaller-scale events (union elections). In my union, we have a protocol that if someone shows up to vote who for some reason isn't on the rolls, they're allowed to fill out a provisional ballot. Those ballots are individually examined and counted only if there's any mathematical chance of them having an effect on the outcome. For example, if we were voting on officers and there were 900 regular ballots and 100 provisional ballots, and after tabulating the 900 each office already had a candidate who had at least 501 votes, they don't count the provisional ballots because there's no way anybody could catch up.

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Rob

By the way, Val, I don't understand how that other person's incorrect use of your address in voter registration precludes the Board of Elections (or whatever the body is there) from recognizing you as being registered as a voter living at that same address.

Is there some other component to it?

In Boston, if you don't reply to the annual city census, you stand a chance of getting stricken from the book.

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Rob

Here in California there was a write-in selection under the President vote so I selected that and wrote in:
Abe Lincoln

Of course it did not matter here as the blue result was not in doubt. But was my way of sending a message about the manipulative, dishonest, spinning, truth stretching ways both political parties operate in the media today especially during the election cycle. But then I did vote for all but one of the propositions with results exactly mirroring my selections.

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David Charlest

Do you think anybody received your message?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx