Catholic Online Forum

Friends,

A nit of a question, I know...

When praying morning prayer on a solemnity, Week 1's psalms and canticle for morning prayer are used. After praying the psalm and reciting the Glory to the Father...would one pray the prayer after the psalm or recite the proper antiphon right away? I ask because I notice that the psalms for the other hours, taken from the Proper of Saints or Common of Saints, do not have accompanying prayers.

Thank you.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

JMJ

Dean,

My understanding is that the "psalm-prayers" are totally optional anyway, appearing in some editions and not others. So do what you like. I usually pray them under the the theory that more prayer is better even if it is the sometimes turgid psalm-prayers.

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

JMJ

Dean,

I believe that the antiphon is to be prayed after the "Glory to the Father" and then the Psalm-Prayer. I like to pray the Psalm-Prayer because normally they sum up the meaning of the Psalm before the moment of silence helping the meditation.

It is a bit difficult as the Psalm-prayer is placed before the antiphon and I need to skip it each time.

_________________
Jesus Master, the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, have mercy on us.
Mary, Queen of Apostles, pray for us.
St Paul, Apostle, pray for us.
From all sin, deliver us, Lord

http://www.vocations-holyfamily.com/

http://www.holyfamilyinstitute.net


Steve M. (alias)

Thank you Steve and Deacon Rob.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

JMJ

Dean,

The sequence suggested by the GIRM and the layout of the texts in the breviary is antiphon, psalm, Glory be, psalm-prayer, antiphon. However, as Deacon Rob notes, the psalm-prayer is optional.

_________________
To be Salt of the Earth and Light of the World is both the dignity and obligation of being Christian.

JMJ

Bick,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I was going to adhere to the layout of the texts since that is the way I was taught by a dear friend of mine who is a priest. It is good to know the prayer is optional, although I don't recall seeing that anywhere in the GILH. Any hints as to where that is spelled out?

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

JMJ

Dean,

My understanding is that the psalm-prayers are not in the official text, but were added by the ICEL. See GILH 112 where the praying of these prayers is prefaced by the introduction, "They may be used . . ."

Note that in GILH 123, no mention is made of the psalm-prayer.

GILH 123 "The antiphon for each psalm should always be recited at the beginning, as noted in nos. 113-120 above. At the end of the psalm the custom is maintained of concluding with the Glory to the Father and As it was in the beginning. This is the fitting conclusion that tradition recommends, and it gives to Old Testament prayer a quality of praise linked to a christological and trinitarian interpretation. The antiphon may be repeated at the end of the psalm."

_________________
To be Salt of the Earth and Light of the World is both the dignity and obligation of being Christian.

JMJ

Bick,

there seems to be a problem with the placement of the (optional) Psalm-Prayer. I read that it is to be prayed (optionally) after the Antiphon. I then I got Seth Murray's book"Lord Open My Lips" and he says:

This confirms what I had read earlier, but Mr. Murray did use the dreaded word "appear".

I'm not sure if we are straining gnats here, but there should be a correct way in which to pray Psalm-prayer. I think this whole situation is that the Psalm-prayers were added without authorization.

_________________
Jesus Master, the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, have mercy on us.
Mary, Queen of Apostles, pray for us.
St Paul, Apostle, pray for us.
From all sin, deliver us, Lord

http://www.vocations-holyfamily.com/

http://www.holyfamilyinstitute.net


Steve M. (alias)

ICEL..... and now the picture becomes more clear.

JMJ

Steve,

The GILH gives explicit direction for the antiphon, psalm, glory be, and antiphon. but, in the case of insertion of the psalm prayer the GILH is ambiguous. I could argue after the unit of antiphon-psalm-glory be-antiphon, or as I said above. However, the placement seems clear-cut in the actual psalter, for what little that is worth. I am not convinced because of another person's assertion that the text was misplaced.

I agree that this whole thing likely comes from the ICEL attempting something they had no business doing.

_________________
To be Salt of the Earth and Light of the World is both the dignity and obligation of being Christian.

JMJ

From the GILotH



and



I think the idea of the psalm-prayer was intended by Rome with implementation left up to the translators. The ones in the Office appear to be an American implementation of a bunch of ICEL-isms. The British edition does not contain them.

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

Thanks very much for the clarification, friends.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

JMJ

Bick - RE I agree that this whole thing likely comes from the ICEL attempting something they had no business doing.

Doing what they had no business doing seems to have been their chief business.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

On the other hand, ....

I think it was the task and mandate of those who prepared the English language version of the LotH simply to TRANSLATE from the original Latin and not compose and insert their own texts into the Roman Rite.

The so-called "Psalm prayers" have no parallel, at all, in the original Latin text. The "Psalm prayers" are not part of the the LotH.

You have probably by now discerned my "No" vote for the "Psalm prayers". In those rare occasions when I might use English for my office, I avoid them entirely.

Fr. Z

_________________
o{]:¬)

JMJ

Fr. Z said:


But as I quoted above the GI states:



So

1. Who wrote the psalm-prayers in the Supplement?
2. Is the Supplement part of the normative Latin material published by Rome?
3. What is the relationship if any between the material in the Supplement and the psalm-prayers in the English LotH?

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

Great questions. I hope we can find the answers.
This thread has been most interesting.

-Douglas

Rob:

1. Who knows, and who cares?
2. No.
3. None, as far as I can tell.

_________________
o{]:¬)

JMJ

Fr. Z,

That prompts the further question: If the Supplement is not part of the normative Latin material, what is it and why is it mentioned in the General Instruction which presumably is official?

Or is the GI as we have it in English, also and ICEL-ism?

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

I don't think the prayers are in the Supplement.

Also, is that business about the Supplement only in the section containing the adaptations for the USA?

Fr. Z

_________________
o{]:¬)

I have the 4 vol edition by Catholic Book Publishing. The quote in question is in #112 in what is listed as the GI in the front of the volume, and it appears to be the universal GI as there are no disclaimers or sections indicating American adaptations.

JMJ

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

I stand on what I wrote.

Ignore the silly psalm prayers. Say the office of the Catholic Church.

(Learn Latin.)

Fr. Z

_________________
o{]:¬)

Along with refurbishing my German, trying to pick up enough Spanish to do bi-lingual St. Vincent de Paul visits, learning enough Gaelic at least to pronounce the words, and learning enough Python to write a few useful sys admin utilities.

Plus enough Greek and Hebrew to do the occasional word study for a homily.

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

Rev. Mr. Embry:

I hope that's Monty Python.

(That's my ICEL version of what you intended to say.)

Also, if I am not mistaken, St. Vincent de Paul spoke French, and his Latin wasn't bad either. Didn't France and Spain fight a few wars?

(That's my version of an ICEL original contribution to rereading history in a.. um... ICEL persective.)

At any rate, I think that the phrase "pick up" in conjunction with Spanish might be racist and "refurbish" anything German might be needless.

(That's my ICEL version of ... something... pointless... which is what the Psalm prayers are.)

Fr. Z

_________________
o{]:¬)

Well, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

ehem.... right.

And I think you by now can guess my ABSOLUTE CONTEMPT (repeat this to yourself) for anything that came from the pen of the older form of ICEL, up to and including... yes... call that "inclusive language"... their original compositions.

Fr. Z

_________________
o{]:¬)

May I extend your "ABSOLUTE CONTEMPT" or at least aesthetic dislike to the Grail Psalter (which, if I am not mistaken, is not an ICEL composition) which has been foisted off on use English Office users?

_________________
Pax et bonum,
Deacon Rob

Prayer knocks at the door; fasting obtains; mercy receives. Prayer, fasting and mercy - these three are one, and they give life to each other. -- St. Peter Chrysologus, Bishop

Sure, why not?

_________________
o{]:¬)

JMJ

Fr. Z,

Ignore the silly psalm prayers. Say the office of the Catholic Church.

At first I thought you were being too harsh regarding these additions, but when I prayed the Psalms as directed, with the proper silence and then tried to pray the Psalm-prayer it did indeed seem silly.

Thank you for your good counsel.

_________________
Jesus Master, the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE, have mercy on us.
Mary, Queen of Apostles, pray for us.
St Paul, Apostle, pray for us.
From all sin, deliver us, Lord

http://www.vocations-holyfamily.com/

http://www.holyfamilyinstitute.net


Steve M. (alias)

In regards to the supplement refered to in the GILH, it hasn't been published yet. As far as I understand there is still a missing volume in the Liturgy of the Hours; apparently it got as far as the proof texts and only needs to be sent to the printers, but for some reason it is still sitting on the shelves somewhere in the Congregation for Divine Worship. This "missing" voulme apparently contains actual Latin psalm prayers, not the ICEL compositions (You probably don't want to hear the story where those come from), and the additional readings for an optional 2 year cycle to the Office of Readings.

Because of changes that take place in the curia from time to time, how material gets sent out changes. The original text for the new Rite of a Dedication of a Church and Altar was ready to go in 1975, and was ready to be sent to the printers but, just as it was happening, there was a shake up in the Roman Curia, Paul VI, did some switching in the Congregations. The material languished for a time and then was published in parts. The actual rite of Dedication came out a few years later, but it wasn't until the publication of the De Benedictionibus, that sections that were originally part of the Dedication book were published, such as the Order for the Blessing of Bells. One part has never been published, the Order for Public Prayer after the Desecration of a Church (you'll find a reference to it in the Ceremonial of Bishops).

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Jeffery BeBeau

JB,

That is very interesting. I have been looking to buy this mysterious supplement for the additional readings for Year 2, but have been unable to find it. This clears up the mystery.

It's good that those who publish these things don't do programming... call a subroutine from the main program... but, oh, the subroutine doesn't exist.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

From what I understand it is possible to find the actually arrangement of the Second Cylce of Readings because I know some of the priests here at the seminary use it. I'll see if I can find it.

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Jeffery BeBeau

JMJ

I have the interim version of the LOTH (from the 1970's) and it lists the scripture passages for the second year of the cycle for the Office of Readings. I could post it if anyone wishes.

However, it does not give the patristic readings for the second year--or the first, for that matter; it apparently precedes the establishment of that portion of the cycle. And I too would like very much to find them. I have a hazy memory of seeing a book containing them several years ago but apparently it is very out of print.

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Catherine Wetmore

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult, and left untried. --G.K. Chesterton